Apple Has 'Very Serious' DMA Issues, EU to Enforce Rules 'Soon'

[Abazigal]

Even if it ends up harming the customers more than it benefits them?

Which begs the question - how does one go about quantifying this, and who is the final arbiter?

For example, replacing the battery in my iPhone is something I may need to do only once (maybe twice at most) in the 4-5 years I own it. I find the rates quoted by Apple to be fairly reasonable, and it doesn't really cost me that much more when I amortise it over multiple years.

At the same time, a sealed design allows for a larger battery, better build quality and structural integrity. The back of my phone and the internal battery doesn't pop out and scatter over the floor when I drop my phone on the ground. I have something nicer to look at and hold every single day. Do these not matter as much?

As the customer, I don't think I am wrong for preferring one bundle of engineering tradeoffs over another. That was precisely the state of the computer and smartphone market before Apple came in. Remember when PCs were these dull and uninspiring beige boxes running dull and uninspiring software? Remember the scene where Steve Jobs pulled the first MBA out of an envelop? Apple completely turned that market upside down by showing that design can matter in the mass consumer market where the buyer is the end user. Today, more companies care about design than they ever have (even Microsoft and Samsung) and I personally feel we are better off for it. Even if the tradeoff is fewer ports, soldered ram or sealed batteries.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Which begs the question - how does one go about quantifying this, and who is the final arbiter?

For example, replacing the battery in my iPhone is something I may need to do only once (maybe twice at most) in the 4-5 years I own it. I find the rates quoted by Apple to be fairly reasonable, and it doesn't really cost me that much more when I amortise it over multiple years.

At the same time, a sealed design allows for a larger battery, better build quality and structural integrity. The back of my phone and the internal battery doesn't pop out and scatter over the floor when I drop my phone on the ground. I have something nicer to look at and hold every single day. Do these not matter as much?

As the customer, I don't think I am wrong for preferring one bundle of engineering tradeoffs over another. That was precisely the state of the computer and smartphone market before Apple came in. Remember when PCs were these dull and uninspiring beige boxes running dull and uninspiring software? Remember the scene where Steve Jobs pulled the first MBA out of an envelop? Apple completely turned that market upside down by showing that design can matter in the mass consumer market where the buyer is the end user. Today, more companies care about design than they ever have (even Microsoft and Samsung) and I personally feel we are better off for it. Even if the tradeoff is fewer ports, soldered ram or sealed batteries.

The sad part is that Apple haven’t been making any innovations with everything getting soldered down.

But we have HP actually inventing the Camm2, an actual product improvement and thinking outside the box.

What is CAMM2? Meet the faster, smaller, upgradeable new memory standard

Thinner, faster, and more repairable.

www.tomshardware.com

 

[davide_eu]

I have to go to the phone’s manufacturer and pay a hefty fee to have the battery replaced because the damn phone is sealed and the battery is either glued or soldered because everyone else has followed apple’s stupid lead of sealing phones and gluing/soldering internal components. And you say this is fair because the manufacturer can do whatever with their product? BS. It’s terrible for the end user and should be stopped.

Don't worry, in EU it will be stopped...

 

[AZhappyjack]

The sad part is that Apple haven’t been making any innovations with everything getting soldered down.

But we have HP actually inventing the Camm2, an actual product improvement and thinking outside the box.

What is CAMM2? Meet the faster, smaller, upgradeable new memory standard

Thinner, faster, and more repairable.

www.tomshardware.com

And as a consumer/end user, you get to decide what works for you.

It Apple is truly evil, why are consumers making and keeping them the most valuable company on the planet?

 

[macfacts]

batteries arent replaceable because people wanted waterproof/resistance ones.

It is possible to have water resistance and have end user replaceable batteries, there's this incredible technology cars have called gasket, example look at the Samsung Galaxy s5. It has a IP67 certification.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Third Party apps didnt exist. Apple's decision to allow them spurred Android to do the same. All Google apps were builtin before then. Older devices were the same. No apps you could install. Look at the number of people it employed and spread the money around?

If anything, it was the other way around:

👉 Android’s impending release spurred Apple to reconsider its (Steve Jobs) decision not to support apps.

Android was announced and its SDK publicly released in 2007. And it was intended to support Apps while in development before that before Apple had even announced the iPhone.

The grapevine from Mountain View to Cupertino doesn't stretch long. Apple must have known what Android had had up their sleeves. And they were able to preempt it by merely a few days in pre-announcing a vapourware SDK of their own - which wasn't released before 2008. That announcement came just weeks after Jobs had been using their WWDC 2007 to tell developers that web apps were going to be it, to somewhat lukewarm developer reception.

Pre-announcing vapourware in an open letter by Jobs without having anything to show wasn't merely uncharacteristic for Apple and Jobs - it was basically unprecedented. The timeframe, that Jobs didn't relent on the "app question" before the iPhone was available, has also been corroborated by his biography.

Older devices were the same. No apps you could install

This is provably wrong, as evidenced by Nokia's Symbian OS phones and Microsoft's 2003 Windows Mobile for Smartphones. Though it is of course fair to say that these products weren't great hits and their usability and attractiveness of available paled considerably, compared to what we got on Android and iPhone OS from 2008 onwards.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

If anything, it was the other way around:

👉 Android’s impending release spurred Apple to reconsider its (Steve Jobs) decision not to support apps.

Android was announced and its SDK publicly released in 2007. And it was intended to support Apps while in development before that before Apple had even announced the iPhone.

The grapevine from Mountain View to Cupertino doesn't stretch long. Apple must have known what Android had had up their sleeves. And they were able to preempt it by merely a few days in pre-announcing a vapourware SDK of their own - which wasn't released before 2008. That announcement came just weeks after Jobs had been using their WWDC 2007 to tell developers that web apps were going to be it, to somewhat lukewarm developer reception.

Pre-announcing vapourware in an open letter by Jobs without having anything to show wasn't merely uncharacteristic for Apple and Jobs - it was basically unprecedented. The timeframe, that Jobs didn't relent on the "app question" before the iPhone was available, has also been corroborated by his biography.


This is provably wrong, as evidenced by Nokia's Symbian OS phones and Microsoft's 2003 Windows Mobile for Smartphones. Though it is of course fair to say that these products weren't great hits and their usability and attractiveness of available paled considerably, compared to what we got on Android and iPhone OS from 2008 onwards.

Don’t forget the first AppStore available on iPhone wasn’t even made by apple the first year

And as a consumer/end user, you get to decide what works for you.

It Apple is truly evil, why are consumers making and keeping them the most valuable company on the planet?

Apple isn’t evil, just greedy as any normal company They just seem to focus their innovation on other things. They had the best opportunity to actually innovate within this segment with their obsession with thinness they risked to create anything useful for their desktop computers.

But HP of all things invented a new way to install RAM that is better in every way of current ram installation.

 

[lpuerto]

It's really funny but this thread is full of crybabies and apple fanboys that are berating the EU… and bla bla. I love apple products and I recently have to start using again windows and I almost kill myself… however, I think that the regulation si good. They should have done something like that for quite awhile now and this is not something new. You can live in walled garden all your existence. I don't need side load apps and so, but I think that de interoperability is really good. Apple is the one with an engineering design problem and also with a minset problem, because in the US they can do whatever they want, which is not good for anyone. Themselves included.

To make it even more funny… we are talking about one of the most powerful companies in the world with an incredible turnover… they have no muscle problem to make this happen, even overnight, if they really want this to happen. They are just being lazy to put pressure on the EU from al the crybabies and apple fanboys in the EU. I hope this doesn't work, even if then apple products get banned overnight in the EU. I doubt apple want to lose one of its more prominent markets with high purchasing power.

 

[I7guy]

It is possible to have water resistance and have end user replaceable batteries, there's this incredible technology cars have called gasket, example look at the Samsung Galaxy s5. It has a IP67 certification.

The iPhone 15 is ip68, so what’s your point?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The iPhone 15 is ip68, so what’s your point?

Well it came out 10 years ago. Perhaps Apple should start thinking outside of the box?


Galaxy XCover 6 Pro is ips68 rated with removable battery

 

[macfacts]

The iPhone 15 is ip68, so what’s your point?

iPhone 15 doesn't have end user replaceable batteries, the person I quoted was saying there's no end user replaceable batteries cause of water resistance.

 

[I7guy]

Well it came out 10 years ago. Perhaps Apple should start thinking outside of the box?


Galaxy XCover 6 Pro is ips68 rated with removable battery

It looks quite a bit boxier than the iPhone 15. So there is that trade off.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It looks quite a bit boxier than the iPhone 15. So there is that trade off.

Could be. But I’m fairly confident that Apple could design something better if they wanted. And to be fair the iPhone have the camera bump( I would like it to be flush but hey that’s my taste)

Samsung Galaxy Xcover6 Pro​

Dimensions	168.8 x 79.9 x 9.9 mm (6.65 x 3.15 x 0.39 in)
Weight	235 g (8.29 oz)

Vs
iPhone 15 pro max

Dimensions	159.9×76.7×8.3 millimeters (6.3×3.02×0.33 inches)
Weight	221 g (7.8 oz)

One engineering idea I have is that the battery would be removed through the bottom alongside the usb c port, speakers etc by removing the screws.

Allowing you to slide the battery out without needing to remove the backside and apply a new gasket that might be wrongly applied.

And instead use mechanical compression or glue as well. Something similar to the LG G5.

 

[I7guy]

Could be. But I’m fairly confident that Apple could design something better if they wanted. And to be fair the iPhone have the camera bump( I would like it to be flush but hey that’s my taste)

Samsung Galaxy Xcover6 Pro​

Dimensions	168.8 x 79.9 x 9.9 mm (6.65 x 3.15 x 0.39 in)
Weight	235 g (8.29 oz)

Vs
iPhone 15 pro max

Dimensions	159.9×76.7×8.3 millimeters (6.3×3.02×0.33 inches)
Weight	221 g (7.8 oz)

One engineering idea I have is that the battery would be removed through the bottom alongside the usb c port, speakers etc by removing the screws.

Allowing you to slide the battery out without needing to remove the backside and apply a new gasket that might be wrongly applied.

And instead use mechanical compression or glue as well. Something similar to the LG G5.

Don’t you believe moving parts such as the LG sports weakens the overall structure of the phone.

My belief is that is why removable batteries in laptops and phones are largely a thing of the past. 1) it weakens the structure overall and 2) it allows a thinner form factor.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Don’t you believe moving parts such as the LG sports weakens the overall structure of the phone.

My belief is that is why removable batteries in laptops and phones are largely a thing of the past. 1) it weakens the structure overall and 2) it allows a thinner form factor.

No not necessarily if it’s part of the structure. Hence I envision it being screwed in to the body instead of pushing some clips that the LG G5 did.

A thinner form factor isn’t really that valuable in my opinion when it’s below some value. Considering the size of the battery is negatively impacted and the structural integrity is compromised by its simple fact of being thin.

There’s no benefit for a laptop to not have removable battery. There’s battery could just be glued to the bottom plate and screwed into the top design and used as structural support.

There’s no innovation by just removing functions with little to no benefits.

 

[lartola]

It Apple is truly evil, why are consumers making and keeping them the most valuable company on the planet?

Because most consumers are stupid and Apple knows how to take advantage of that. A majority can be wrong. They’re still all human.

 

[macfacts]

Feel free to spew whatever you want to spew. My point was that you claim Apple "scam[med money] from their customers", and you're posting on an Apple-centric forum... was just trying to figure out what your real beef with Apple is.

My beef isn't with apple, it's with with the die hard fans (probably shareholders) spreading false advertising. Tricking people to buy apple

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Well well well. Seems like I was quite on the money on dome of the opinions EU had.

Commission sends preliminary findings to Apple and opens additional non-compliance investigation against Apple under the Digital Markets Act

Today, the European Commission has informed Apple of its preliminary view that its App Store rules are in breach of the Digital Markets Act (DMA), as they prevent app developers from freely steering consumers to alternative channels for offers and content.

ec.europa.eu

 

[mode11]

Well well well. Seems like I was quite on the money on dome of the opinions EU had.

Commission sends preliminary findings to Apple and opens additional non-compliance investigation against Apple under the Digital Markets Act

Today, the European Commission has informed Apple of its preliminary view that its App Store rules are in breach of the Digital Markets Act (DMA), as they prevent app developers from freely steering consumers to alternative channels for offers and content.

ec.europa.eu

This ultimately feels like a negotiation back and forth, to establish the ground rules for fair practice in this area. The EU came out with a bunch of initial principles. Corporations go away and try to find workarounds to maintain what they want ('malicious compliance'). The EU then clarify their rules to cut off these options. This process continues until corporations are out of ideas.

It's not up to the EU to try and anticipate every ingenious potential workaround in advance, then just sit back and admit defeat if companies like Apple outsmart them. Given enough time and smart engineers / lawyers, big companies have lots of opportunity to figure out ways to stymie the spirit of legislation and get what they want. The process has to take this into account.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

It’s not surprising seeing as it’s not an industry with significant investment in Europe. There are plenty of successful European designers in the tech industry though, just often not based here.

And the Europeans should be asking themselves “why”.

If there’s one thing EU doesn’t lack it’s money. And talent, too. Yet they don’t seem to be able to match the level of innovation coming out of other parts of the world. What gives ?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This ultimately feels like a negotiation back and forth, to establish the ground rules for fair practice in this area. The EU came out with a bunch of initial principles. Corporations go away and try to find workarounds to maintain what they want ('malicious compliance'). The EU then clarify their rules to cut off these options. This process continues until corporations are out of ideas.

It's not up to the EU to try and anticipate every ingenious potential workaround in advance, then just sit back and admit defeat if companies like Apple outsmart them. Given enough time and smart engineers / lawyers, big companies have lots of opportunity to figure out ways to stymie the spirit of legislation and get what they want. The process has to take this into account.

Well yes and no, the DMA have established measurable outcomes and results that you can go upstream to confirm if it will actually lead to that outcome. I don’t think the rules are getting clearer but the actions themselves gets evaluated in a case by case basis as it’s the behavior itself that is targeted.

You know when you see it.

And the Europeans should be asking themselves “why”.

If there’s one thing EU doesn’t lack it’s money. And talent, too. Yet they don’t seem to be able to match the level of innovation coming out of other parts of the world. What gives ?

EU lack money as it’s not their job . Its budget is 1% of the EU GDP. And that money is collected mostly through a small percentage of sales taxes. And that amount to 0.2~ trillion dollars. And that is for all its functions.

Eu is punishing well above its league in innovation as it’s mostly a member issue. And having large federal budget to invest massively in technology is mostly a new thing while the US have had that for decades, if not a century.

Imagine if U.S. states didn’t have the federal government to do massive investments and purchases to build projects.

Reforming innovation policy to help the EU escape the middle-technology trap

Europe lags behind in innovation. This column describes how its industry seems stuck in a middle-technology trap in which it does not pay to leave the beaten path. The authors argue that EU innovation policy should support disruptive innovation to break this path dependency, but this needs...

cepr.org

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

And the Europeans should be asking themselves “why”.

If there’s one thing EU doesn’t lack it’s money. And talent, too. Yet they don’t seem to be able to match the level of innovation coming out of other parts of the world. What gives ?

I don’t think it’s an industry Europeans wish to compete in to be honest, I don’t think it’s due to lack of money or ability. America and Asia are the leaders in this field and different parts of the World generally have their focuses, although some tech originates from Europe, just not in the domestic sense. Some of the best cars in the world are made in Europe for instance and automotive production is a strength (Asia too). The UK make some of the best engines in the World, especially in motorsport (Mercedes AMG high performance powertrains for example), and these are designed and built in the Northamptonshire countryside in Brixworth. The UK makes some of the best communications tech for the military sector and armoured vehicles, America are some of our biggest customers. Much of this isn’t widely known though.

It just comes down to supply chains and general skill sets in regions and consumer tech just isn’t a focus or a market worth competing in when you’ve got areas already rich with resources IMO.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I don’t think it’s an industry Europeans wish to compete in to be honest, I don’t think it’s due to lack of money or ability. America and Asia are the leaders in this field and different parts of the World generally have their focuses, although some tech originates from Europe, just not in the domestic sense. Some of the best cars in the world are made in Europe for instance and automotive production is a strength (Asia too). The UK make some of the best engines in the World, especially in motorsport (Mercedes AMG high performance powertrains for example), and these are designed and built in the Northamptonshire countryside in Brixworth. The UK makes some of the best communications tech for the military sector and armoured vehicles, America are some of our biggest customers. Much of this isn’t widely known though.

It just comes down to supply chains and general skill sets in regions and consumer tech just isn’t a focus or a market worth competing in when you’ve got areas already rich with resources IMO.

Well most such technology is from Europe ironically.

USA is very good at putting something together as the end product, but most of that key technology didn’t originate from the USA.

We can just look at the military technology.

1. Rheinmetall 120mm Smoothbore Gun:
• Used in the M1 Abrams tank.
2. Martin-Baker Ejection Seats:
• Used in the F-35 Lightning II, F/A-18 Hornet, and other aircraft.
3. MTU Diesel Engines:
• Used in the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) and other naval vessels.
4. Europrop International TP400-D6 Engine:
• Used in the Airbus A400M Atlas, which is operated by U.S. allies and provides interoperability.
5. Rolls-Royce AE 2100 Engine:
• Used in the C-130J Super Hercules and other transport aircraft.
6. BAE Systems Mk 45 Naval Gun:
• Used on U.S. Navy destroyers and cruisers.
7. Thales TopOwl Helmet-Mounted Sight Display:
• Used in the AH-64 Apache helicopter.
8. MBDA Meteor Missile:
• Integrated into the F-35 Lightning II for some U.S. allies, providing shared capabilities.
9. Saab Barracuda Mobile Camouflage System:
• Used by various U.S. military units for vehicle and equipment concealment.
10. Leonardo DRS Infrared Countermeasures:
• Used in various aircraft and ground vehicles for protection against infrared-guided missiles.
11. Airbus KC-30A (A330 MRTT) Refueling Boom:
• Components and technologies used in U.S. Air Force aerial refueling aircraft.
12. Thales Ground Alerter 10:
• Used for artillery and rocket detection and alerting.
13. Oerlikon Skyshield Air Defense System:
• Used for point defense against aerial threats.
14. Eurofighter Typhoon Helmet-Mounted Display System:
• Integrated into U.S. training programs and used in interoperability training with allies.
15. Rheinmetall Active Protection Systems:
• Used in various armored vehicles to provide enhanced protection against anti-tank missiles and RPGs.
16. EADS CASA C-295:
• Used for training and logistics support missions.
17. Rolls-Royce T406 (AE 1107C-Liberty) Engine:
• Used in the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft.
18. KMW (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann) Leopard 2 Technologies:
• Used for upgrades and enhancements of U.S. armored vehicle systems.
19. Diehl Defence IRIS-T Missile:
• Integrated into U.S. Air Force and Navy aircraft for air-to-air combat.
20. Safran Vectronix Laser Rangefinders:
• Used in various U.S. military applications for targeting and reconnaissance.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Well most such technology is from Europe ironically.

USA is very good at putting something together as the end product, but most of that key technology didn’t originate from the USA.

We can just look at the military technology.

I am aware of that which is why I said there are some very successful people in the tech world from Europe and used the words ‘domestic’ and ‘consumer’ tech. American based doesn’t always mean American designed etc.

 

[turbineseaplane]

"Today, the Commission has also opened a third non-compliance investigation into Apple's new contractual terms for developers as a condition to access some of the new features enabled by the DMA"

Tim - it's time to change the plans

Frankly I'm loving the example the EU is setting for other jurisdictions

Don't be afraid of setting rules for behemoth companies. They need a country's users more than any country or jurisdiction needs Apple.

It's time to push back on overreach from MegaCorps