Apple Has 'Very Serious' DMA Issues, EU to Enforce Rules 'Soon'

[AppliedMicro]

I’m a vote with your $$$ person and have no qualms with apple monopolized their software according to current laws. (Excluding the dma). YMMV.

I'm also a vote with your $$$ person.

If a developer isn't happy with the conditions imposed by Apple for in-app purchases, they should be able to choose a different provider - or roll out their own solution.

Without having to abandon the iOS platform altogether (because that's forming a duopoly with Google's Android and there's considerable customer lock-in). And without Apple making that choice unviable.

The lawmakers are specifically targeting Apple’s business model and forcing them to change in the name of competition.

They're not targeting Apple specifically.

But they are targeting the business model of tying thousands of developers and millions of consumers and thousands to a platform (that itself is part of an established duopoly) - and then charging and imposing rules as its suits, including preferencing their own competing services.

Apple to open things up and allow others to compete within Apple’s environment, watering down their intellectual property

And that's the right thing 👍 to do, given how large the market is, how high the market concentration and market power and how many smaller businesses depend on them.

Given how it has "only" made them the world's largest and most profitable company within just a decade, nobody needs to cry about their "intellectual property" being (slightly, at best) watered down.

Societies have no reason to continue letting the (Apple's) exploitation of their intellectual property run rampant any further - particularly as the underlying technology and markets continue to mature.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

A slogan is not a false advertisement. Hence why apple was never sued over this apparently “false fact”.

Because it wasn’t a false statement.

But they tried to argue that it wasn’t true, hence why they lost the qualification as they tried to argue that it wasn’t true in order to prevent it from being classified as a core platform service.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/202344/DMA_100027_197.pdf

 

[macfacts]

With all the money apple has scammed from their customers, they can buy an island and sell there, make their own laws.

 

[AZhappyjack]

I'm also a vote with your $$$ person.

If a developer isn't happy with the conditions imposed by Apple for in-app purchases, they should be able to choose a different provider - or roll out their own solution.

Given how it has "only" made them the world's largest and most profitable company within just a decade, nobody needs to cry about their "intellectual property" being (slightly, at best) watered down.

Societies have no reason to continue letting the (Apple's) exploitation of their intellectual property run rampant any further - particularly as the underlying technology and markets continue to mature.

I strongly disagree. Apple invested their capital to create their system. Now those who did not invest in that process are crying to their respective governments for a way to make Apple let them play. If you want to play, you have to pay, and you have to play by the rules.

If Apple doesn't work for the devs, they the devs should move to a platform that they are comfortable with. Forcing Apple to "let them play" and "let them dictate the terms" is just flat wrong. Apple has become the world's largest and most profitable company in spite of these unfair dictates, not because of them.

It's only a duopoly because no one else has bothered to step up and create another competitive option. You want to make the rules for your business? Raise capital and go for it. Or you can whine that you don't get your way in this world.

Apple is not exploiting anything or anyone. They either develop the tech or they license the tech. If they don't, they are subject to the same remedies as anyone else - being sued and being forced to either pay or quit using the tech (oxygen sensor is a perfect example).

 

[AZhappyjack]

With all the money apple has scammed from their customers, they can buy an island and sell there, make their own laws.

So, are you an Apple customer? Have they "scammed" you? If so, why are you still here? I am not an Apple apologist, but I believe that they should be able to keep, manage and control what they have built.

 

[I7guy]

Because it wasn’t a false statement.

But they tried to argue that it wasn’t true, hence why they lost the qualification as they tried to argue that it wasn’t true in order to prevent it from being classified as a core platform service.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/202344/DMA_100027_197.pdf

A slogan is still not a legal statement of truth no matter how much “the windmills are tilted”. I’m won’t be surprised if apple loses every court appearance in the EU; for obvious reasons.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Now those who did not invest in that process are crying to their respective governments for a way to make Apple let them play.

You aren't suggesting any music/video streaming service or game developer should or can develop their own platform, are you?

It's not Microsoft or Nokia or Blackberry that failed to invest as much to succeed that
It's the countless smaller businesses (developers) that can't and won't each develop a smartphone platform of their own - because the market just will not bear more than two, three, maybe four competitors.

The market for consumers operating systems inevitably converge on very few platforms - and that's economically sound and rational.

If you want to play, you have to pay, and you have to play by the rules.

Yes - but those rules should be set or regulated by the government. Not profit-seeking enterprises.
As they are in virtually all markets with as few competing platforms and as much economic relevance and dependency (utilities, including telecoms).

If Apple doesn't work for the devs, they the devs should move to a platform that they are comfortable with.

There's only one commercially relevant alternative platform (we both know which), and that has very similar terms. That's why regulation is appropriate - unlike in competitive markets with half a dozen or many more competitors.

Apple has become the world's largest and most profitable company in spite of these unfair dictates, not because of them.

Let's be honest - and not ridiculous here.

Apple has - for good or worse (and we may disagree on that) become the most profitable company without much government intervention/regulation (let alone "unfair dictates") at all.

Governments have been so far - until very recently - letting Apple exploit their intellectual property with regards to the iPhone/iOS as they pleased.

 

[I7guy]

I'm also a vote with your $$$ person.

Good because you won’t be agreeing with below.

If a developer isn't happy with the conditions imposed by Apple for in-app purchases, they should be able to choose a different provider - or roll out their own solution.

Sure. If a customer isnt happy with a proposed vendor usually the government doesn’t get involved. They customer finds their own alternative. If there isn’t any the customer is out of luck.

Without having to abandon the iOS platform altogether (because that's forming a duopoly with Google's Android and there's considerable customer lock-in). And without Apple making that choice unviable.

Apple has a minority share in the eu market from overall cell phone manufacturers. Apple didn’t cause the lack of I/s development and it should t be there problem.

They're not targeting Apple specifically.

They are.

But they are targeting the business model of tying thousands of developers and millions of consumers and thousands to a platform (that itself is part of an established duopoly) - and then charging and imposing rules as its suits, including preferencing their own competing services.

One instance there is a competing service. Don’t say it as if there is a multitude of competing services. There is not tying.

And that's the right thing 👍 to do, given how large the market is, how high the market concentration and market power and how many smaller businesses depend on them.

Given how it has "only" made them the world's largest and most profitable company within just a decade, nobody needs to cry about their "intellectual property" being (slightly, at best) watered down.

Societies have no reason to continue letting the (Apple's) exploitation of their intellectual property run rampant any further - particularly as the underlying technology and markets continue to mature.

I just disagree. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[macfacts]

So, are you an Apple customer? Have they "scammed" you? If so, why are you still here? I am not an Apple apologist, but I believe that they should be able to keep, manage and control what they have built.

I was a customer (mac user, now a Chromebook user) but have moved on. you're free to ignore me if you don't like what I say.

 

[AppliedMicro]

They customer finds their own alternative. If there isn’t any the customer is out of luck.

When billions of Euros of revenue are at stake, tens of thousands of businesses (and, potentially, millions of consumers) are supposed to be "out of luck", it's up to the government to change things through legislation.

Apple has a minority share in the eu market from overall cell phone manufacturers

Physical cell phones aren't regulated by the DMA.
Android manufacturers also have minority shares of hardware devices - yet Android as an OS (and the Play Store) haven't.

They are.

There's no provision that would specifically target Apple.
The same provisions apply to Android/Google. Play.

One instance there is a competing service. Don’t say it as if there is a multitude of competing services. There is not tying.

There are barriers to switch. Consumers don't switch from one platform to another as they do from McDonald's, Walmart, or whatever inane comparison I've read.

I just disagree. Different strokes for different folks.

We agree to disagree 👍

 

[I7guy]

When billions of Euros of revenue are at stake, tens of thousands of businesses (and, potentially, millions of consumers) are supposed to be "out of luck", it's up to the government to change things through legislation.

Disagree. The government should stay out of it. Obviously in the EU there’s the dma, but oh well you know how I feel.

Physical cell phones aren't regulated by the DMA.
Android manufacturers also have minority shares of hardware devices - yet Android as an OS (and the Play Store) haven't.

Apple is still a minority in the EU. Hence why the dma threaded that needle.

There's no provision that would specifically target Apple.
The same provisions apply to Android/Google. Play.

Not specifically, but apple is the culprit here.

There are barriers to switch. Consumers don't switch from one platform to another as they do from McDonald's, Walmart, or whatever inane comparison I've read.

Whatever inane stuff I’ve read lock in is real. It’s real with tv sets, cars, consoles and much more. Don’t make lock in an apple issue.

We agree to disagree 👍

 

[Infinity Vortex]

If Apple doesn't work for the devs, they the devs should move to a platform that they are comfortable with. Forcing Apple to "let them play" and "let them dictate the terms" is just flat wrong. Apple has become the world's largest and most profitable company in spite of these unfair dictates, not because of them.

What’s flat out wrong is in bold. Apple’s been selling iPhones while running the App Store since what, 2008? Meanwhile the DMA went into effect, roughly 3 months ago?

 

[Infinity Vortex]

Because it wasn’t a false statement.

But they tried to argue that it wasn’t true, hence why they lost the qualification as they tried to argue that it wasn’t true in order to prevent it from being classified as a core platform service.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/202344/DMA_100027_197.pdf

Just more changing the argument to fit the desired narrative.

Touting product features and how it functions as a practical matter for users?

“Safari’s the same!”

Trying to wriggle out of mandated legal compliance?

“These browsers couldn’t be more different!”

A slogan is still not a legal statement of truth no matter how much “the windmills are tilted”. I’m won’t be surprised if apple loses every court appearance in the EU; for obvious reasons.

Well if you break the law, it really shouldn’t be unexpected or surprising to lose in court.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

A slogan is still not a legal statement of truth no matter how much “the windmills are tilted”. I’m won’t be surprised if apple loses every court appearance in the EU; for obvious reasons.

They are always. They are considered a legal statement. Any official information are always treated through a legal claim, irrespective if it’s a slogan, commercial information or staff saying in any form of official capacity.

And it wasn’t a slogan.

 

[AZhappyjack]

I was a customer (mac user, now a Chromebook user) but have moved on. you're free to ignore me if you don't like what I say.

Feel free to spew whatever you want to spew. My point was that you claim Apple "scam[med money] from their customers", and you're posting on an Apple-centric forum... was just trying to figure out what your real beef with Apple is.

 

[AZhappyjack]

Apple has - for good or worse (and we may disagree on that) become the most profitable company without much government intervention/regulation (let alone "unfair dictates") at all.

Governments have been so far - until very recently - letting Apple exploit their intellectual property with regards to the iPhone/iOS as they pleased.

And now the governments are trying to change the rules with the game already in progress. Just don't see how moving the goalposts is fair to the Apples of the world.

 

[I7guy]

They are always. They are considered a legal statement. Any official information are always treated through a legal claim, irrespective if it’s a slogan, commercial information or staff saying in any form of official capacity.

And it wasn’t a slogan.
View attachment 2391134

Looks like a slogan to me.

 

[Infinity Vortex]

And now the governments are trying to change the rules with the game already in progress. Just don't see how moving the goalposts is fair to the Apples of the world.

Laws change all the time. As they should. They have to keep up with the state of the world.

 

[Janschi]

China is getting charged for their EV products 48% tariffs. EU is pissing off the world with their hate of the world besides what's within EU limits.

The funny thing is most of the tech stuff made in Europe s*cks.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The funny thing is most of the tech stuff made in Europe s*cks.

It’s not surprising seeing as it’s not an industry with significant investment in Europe. There are plenty of successful European designers in the tech industry though, just often not based here.

 

[AppliedMicro]

And now the governments are trying to change the rules with the game already in progress

The game isn’t really in progress anymore.
It has become to stalemate (on mobile OS/App Stores).

Unlike for gaming, music, video streaming and ebooks, where Apple is increasingly leveraging their market power to compete with other services (through self-preferencing).

 

[wbeasley]

Feel free to spew whatever you want to spew. My point was that you claim Apple "scam[med money] from their customers", and you're posting on an Apple-centric forum... was just trying to figure out what your real beef with Apple is.

Yeah, odd that someone has "moved on" sticks around to ... stick it to Apple. comes across as bitter, doesnt it?

I've used Windows since version 3.0 and last time for work.
It's OK but honestly the changes over the years didnt seem to make it easier - especially for newbies.

But I don't lurk on Microsoft forums spewing hate and telling people to move.

What's the point of doing that?

 

[Shirasaki]

Let the free market dictate it

Free market has its limits.

 

[lartola]

So, are you an Apple customer? Have they "scammed" you? If so, why are you still here? I am not an Apple apologist, but I believe that they should be able to keep, manage and control what they have built.

Even if it ends up harming the customers more than it benefits them? because that’s the reality. Apple’s business models only benefits Apple itself. It does not benefit the customers at all and even harms the market to some extent. Example: before the iphone ever existed, I was able to easily and cheaply replace my phone’s battery when it stopped working. Now, years after the first iphone came out, whether I own an iphone or any other phone, I have to go to the phone’s manufacturer and pay a hefty fee to have the battery replaced because the damn phone is sealed and the battery is either glued or soldered because everyone else has followed apple’s stupid lead of sealing phones and gluing/soldering internal components. And you say this is fair because the manufacturer can do whatever with their product? BS. It’s terrible for the end user and should be stopped. And the same happens with most of Apple’s abusive business practices. That’s why governments in many countries are starting to intervene.

 

[wbeasley]

Even if it ends up harming the customers more than it benefits them? because that’s the reality. Apple’s business models only benefits Apple itself. It does not benefit the customers at all and even harms the market to some extent. Example: before the iphone ever existed, I was able to easily and cheaply replace my phone’s battery when it stopped working. Now, years after the first iphone came out, whether I own an iphone or any other phone, I have to go to the phone’s manufacturer and pay a hefty fee to have the battery replaced because the damn phone is sealed and the battery is either glued or soldered because everyone else has followed apple’s stupid lead of sealing phones and gluing/soldering internal components. And you say this is fair because the manufacturer can do whatever with their product? BS. It’s terrible for the end user and should be stopped. And the same happens with most of Apple’s abusive business practices. That’s why governments in many countries are starting to intervene.

batteries arent replaceable because people wanted waterproof/resistance ones.

Apple dont allow you to add SD card memory. Many Android devices do.
So Apple hasn't stopped that convenient feature that saves money happen.

Apple did stop adding in chargers... which Samsung mocked before doing the same.

Why not look at some positive moves as well...

Third Party apps didnt exist. Apple's decision to allow them spurred Android to do the same. All Google apps were builtin before then. Older devices were the same. No apps you could install. Look at the number of people it employed and spread the money around?

Just because an environment doesnt work how you want it to, doesnt mean others dont see that as a benefit.

And you have a choice if you want that freedom. On hundreds of different phones from cheap to expensive.