Apple Helps Facilitate Coding and Creativity Opportunities at Historically Black Colleges and Universities

[826317]

seeing how the police force in the states murder black people at an alarming rate

Black people get killed at a rate 2.8 times of what it should be. Fair point to make. Then you look at all the murder that are committed by black people and you see that they are represented at 3.76 (49% of the country's murders) the rate of what they should be in murder statistics. 5 times (65%) the rate for burglary, theft, GTA etc. So to say that a disproportionate police-on-black kill ratio is due to racism, I would argue that instead their disproportionate representation in the crime statistics have something to do with that.

As an aside: I want to add that I am using the 13% being the black population in the US to calculate rates. This includes black babies, women, children, teenagers, adults, elderly etc. even though only a subset of these people are committing the aforementioned crimes. Mainly black men from aged 16-45. So very roughly 3-4% of the population rather than the 13% that I used. However since I don't know for sure whether the statisticians took this into account when they calculated the 2.8 figure, I did not use 3-4% but rather the more widely known 13% figure.

first name Floyd, last name George

I assume you meant first name George, last name Floyd? Either way, I get who you're talking about.

There are a LOT of those extra judicial killings in America going all the way back to slavery

Yeah not really. Police killings are not really a big deal in the states when analysed at the individual case-by-case basis. I do think police over all need to get a completely overhauled training course. A course that prioritises de-escalation.

 

[2010mini]

So can you actually provide an account of how a black individual from birth until let's say ~30 years old they are feeling the effects of slavery and the likes? Perhaps you could also compare it to a white or asian individual for comparison and see at which steps in life each gets advantaged or disadvantaged?

That honestly is a very long discussion. The average black individual today starts out from a family that hold less wealth than the average white family. Why?

we as you know wealth is not built in one generation, but is compounded over generations. From slavery to reconstruction to civil rights laws. Generations of black individuals were systematically left out of wealth building which the US government assisted white individuals with: Land, favorable mortgages, favorable jobs.... etc. The US retarded the growth of its black citizens for about 87 years after reconstruction. And the years before were even worse.

Add to that the stereotypes instilled in American culture towards blacks for generations affect people today. Whites are still seen as racists. Blacks are still viewed as “dangerous” and that permeates law enforcement.

a 30 year old Law abiding black male faces more scrutiny from law enforcement than his white counterpart. He will, on average, make less money doing the same job with the same degree than his white counterpart. Good news is that this gap has significantly shortened since the 1960s.

I said a lot. But your question seems to suggest.... please correct me..... that “slavery is so long ago, everyone is free”

this attitude ignores that 400 years of negative ingrained views of blacks does not affect them today. We experience affects of it to this day. Blacks in this country were under an apartheid system up to 50 years ago. There are people alive who lived under that system..... do you understand that?
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Black people get killed at a rate 2.8 times of what it should be. Fair point to make. Then you look at all the murder that are committed by black people and you see that they are represented at 3.76 (49% of the country's murders) the rate of what they should be in murder statistics. 5 times (65%) the rate for burglary, theft, GTA etc. So to say that a disproportionate police-on-black kill ratio is due to racism, I would argue that instead their disproportionate representation in the crime statistics have something to do with that.

As an aside: I want to add that I am using the 13% being the black population in the US to calculate rates. This includes black babies, women, children, teenagers, adults, elderly etc. even though only a subset of these people are committing the aforementioned crimes. Mainly black men from aged 16-45. So very roughly 3-4% of the population rather than the 13% that I used. However since I don't know for sure whether the statisticians took this into account when they calculated the 2.8 figure, I did not use 3-4% but rather the more widely known 13% figure.


I assume you meant first name George, last name Floyd? Either way, I get who you're talking about.

Yeah not really. Police killings are not really a big deal in the states when analysed at the individual case-by-case basis. I do think police over all need to get a completely overhauled training course. A course that prioritises de-escalation.

police deescalation techniques are sorely lacking.... especially when it comes to minorities.
I felt sick to my stomach having to sit my teenage son down to have “the talk” basically teaching him how to deescalate encounters with law enforcement.

I had to calm down my 10 year old daughter after she learned of George Floyd’s death. She was scared for her father...., that hurt me to the core.

 

[826317]

That honestly is a very long discussion. The average black individual today starts out from a family that hold less wealth than the average white family. Why?

Well the black family as it manifests in society today for the majority, about ~70%, consists of a mother and one or more children. The father nowhere to be seen. On top of that, as you might be aware of, laws instantiated after the civil rights act in 1964 essentially incentivised many poor mothers, where black mothers made out the majority of those mothers, to stay in a household without a man to help take care of the family, by being given government assistance. Perhaps that is a big reason why there is a disproportionate criminality problem in the black community as well, since studies have shown that children who are brought up by single mothers have an increased potential of engaging in criminal activities.

we as you know wealth is not built in one generation, but is compounded over generations. From slavery to reconstruction to civil rights laws. Generations of black individuals were systematically left out of wealth building which the US government assisted white individuals with: Land, favorable mortgages, favorable jobs.... etc. The US retarded the growth of its black citizens for about 87 years after reconstruction. And the years before were even worse.

Right, that could be a reason as to why there are more poor black people than any other races. This however does not differentiate between an individual black kid who is poor and an individual white kid who is equally as poor from achieving the same goal.

Add to that the stereotypes instilled in American culture towards blacks for generations affect people today. Whites are still seen as racists. Blacks are still viewed as “dangerous” and that permeates law enforcement.

The division which the mass media is causing isn't really helping in that aspect either I must say.

a 30 year old Law abiding black male faces more scrutiny from law enforcement than his white counterpart. He will, on average, make less money doing the same job with the same degree than his white counterpart. Good news is that this gap has significantly shortened since the 1960s.

While this would definitely be true before the 1960s and most probably for some while after the 1960s. However, speaking from a systemic perspective, in the present day, that is not true. On average black men earn less money per year than the average white man, however that does not take into account the different jobs that people have and the qualifications that they possess etc. It's essentially the exact same thing as debunking the gender wage gap, that thankfully the majority of feminists have stopped banging on about.

I said a lot. But your question seems to suggest.... please correct me..... that “slavery is so long ago, everyone is free”

Well, if you're referring to the black prison population, I can agree with you that we need to really go for major reform. I am personally of the opinion that all drugs should for one be decriminalised and ultimately legalised. I feel that no person should go to prison for offences that essentially didn't cause harm, loss or injury to any party. I also think we should re-think the welfare state and implement/amend/change laws that would encourage the nuclear black family to persist

In addition I would also take a considerable amount of time to truly get to the bottom of gang associated and the subsequent violence that comes as a result of that and again implement laws or programs that solves this problem. I am not entirely sure what those laws would look like though.

this attitude ignores that 400 years of negative ingrained views of blacks does not affect them today. We experience affects of it to this day. Blacks in this country were under an apartheid system up to 50 years ago. There are people alive who lived under that system..... do you understand that?

As you said yourself these views have been ingrained for over 400 years. Fine. However, that is generational, agreed? These views are passed down, agreed? Right. So, my question is, where do these views manifest as a hinderance in a black person's pursuit of a successful career and a fair treatment in life?

 

[amartinez1660]

In theory. But if you spent 150+years making sure one sector of US citizens had better access to jobs, home buying, and schools and then today said *poof* you are all now equal....... Wouldn't logic say the ones who had a 150+ years of compounding head start are better off???

Its kind of weird to complain about investing in places where previously these was none. When society spent so much more decades investing in other areas.

I agree for the most part with the analogy, other comments analogies, overall sentiment and Apple’s initiative like this one and all education related, it’s actually incredible the massive amount of content out there for free, might start learning on those ones myself.

But I do think that those 150+ years advantage is beneficial most likely on the money and accumulated wealth side of things, namely for those ultra rich. This makes any other people, regardless of color, be on a similar enough ground level provided that equal opportunities for education and self improvement paths are available. I’m not accounting pain, suffering and resentment created by culture-wide mistreatment though.

To put myself, as a mid thirties years old latin immigrant guy that arrived to North America “late” a bit less than ten years ago, if there has been a handicap because of all those years not living in a healthy-ish economy, education and social advancements that I didn’t enjoy... it’s been more than paid off by all the opportunities given to become who I have become today.

My point is, yes the past has been nasty, for people of color and for everybody not at the top in general, but positive progress has been made, in great strides for everybody. Add to that the general improvements like eradicated diseases (although bad timing for this example), tons of opportunities for personal progress and others. The baseline has been improved for everybody to never before seen levels, especially compared with 150, 300, 500 years ago.

I guess that if I can be comfortable as a Latin immigrant in this land of opportunities (a land that’s still trying hard to equalize those opportunities even more), with let’s say 10 years of trajectory covered, with zero years inheritance, no family, no nothing from over here... then I guess, at least for me, that white ultra rich family hope they try to give a bit back to others, but probably I’ll ignore them as long as they don’t mess with my willingness to continue progressing on my goals.

 

[!!!]

And those who can't obtain the skills because they didn't receive special treatment earlier in life?

No one is saying that hiring shouldn't consider skill - but if the default position seems to be "people of color and/or women aren't skilled," we should be looking at that problem. And that is exactly what a program like this is aiming to do.

I never received any kind of special treatment, yet somehow I managed to get a degree in computer science. Have you considered that maybe those people just aren't as interested in programming? Should I receive special treatment if I'm trying to become a teacher and there's more women than men in teaching jobs? No, that's just stupid, having more of one "identity group" in a job doesn't mean other "identity groups" are being discriminated against, it simply means those people aren't as interested in doing that type of job.

 

[2010mini]

......As you said yourself these views have been ingrained for over 400 years. Fine. However, that is generational, agreed? These views are passed down, agreed? Right. So, my question is, where do these views manifest as a hinderance in a black person's pursuit of a successful career and a fair treatment in life?

I am a black immigrant to the US. I did not know I was "black" until I came here. I did not know there are places I could not go until I came here. I was taught the US is the "land of the free".... but in practice I have faced bigotry. Black Americans can become successful, but the road to it have many roadblocks that white Americans just don't understand. They see it as "playing the race card" whenever these roadblocks are pointed out. This ingrained attitude that blacks are violent, lazy, need handouts, and are "given positions over qualified whites" is a huge roadblock.

Imagine leaving all you know, going to a new country. Working hard to acquire education, landing a job and work your way up. Only to face the "he must've been an AA hire" nonsense..... this attitude that ignores the centuries of whites being handed preferential treatment by society.

Imagine having to swallow your pride constantly while you work to better yourself and buy a home to achieve one similar to that of your childhood.... a quiet neighborhood with a backyard for your children to play as you had. Only to face the "there goes the neighborhood" attitude..... and this attitude ignores that you and your wife are more educated and further along in our careers than they are. You find out that these same ignorant people looking down at you, are drug addicts and their children are underachieving miscreants. But they STILL get preferential treatment by law enforcement, and can walk around without whispers.

The level of **** white Americans do and not be treated the same as minorities is astronomical. I could list more, but probably will just get the same "black card" replies.

 

[826317]

I am a black immigrant to the US. I did not know I was "black" until I came here.

Depending on when you came to America, it was either because of actual racism or if you came more recently, then it is more than likely due to the mainstream media who are set out to divide the nation by a racial basis.

I did not know there are places I could not go until I came here.

Which places can you not go?

I was taught the US is the "land of the free".... but in practice I have faced bigotry.

Please, if you don't mind, tell me about a couple of your worst experiences of bigotry.

Black Americans can become successful, but the road to it have many roadblocks that white Americans just don't understand. They see it as "playing the race card" whenever these roadblocks are pointed out.

Again, please, if you don't mind, tell me about some of these roadblocks you speak of. This is the core of the discussion where I am looking to find some answers.

This ingrained attitude that blacks are violent, lazy, need handouts, and are "given positions over qualified whites" is a huge roadblock.

Statistically blacks are more violent than any other race in the US, even towards other blacks. There is a massive disproportionality when it comes to blacks and violent crime in the US. This is probably where the stereotypes come from. I don't agree with it, but is the case with almost all stereotypes, there is always a hint of truth to them. Of course they should never be universally applied. Only low-IQ individuals would use stereotypes to attack someone simply because they are black, white, asian or any other race or group for that matter.

Imagine leaving all you know, going to a new country. Working hard to acquire education, landing a job and work your way up. Only to face the "he must've been an AA hire" nonsense..... this attitude that ignores the centuries of whites being handed preferential treatment by society.

I have experience with being an immigrant just like you. So I know it's difficult. Although I would say that if someone calls you an affirmative action hire, you should know personally from within yourself that you are above them. They have got nothing on you. If you are confident that you made it where you are because of your hard work, those types of comments really should not even put a dent in your mood let alone your perception of how you're treated in society, because people who make those comments are below you and you should know that.

Imagine having to swallow your pride constantly while you work to better yourself and buy a home to achieve one similar to that of your childhood.... a quiet neighborhood with a backyard for your children to play as you had. Only to face the "there goes the neighborhood" attitude..... and this attitude ignores that you and your wife are more educated and further along in our careers than they are. You find out that these same ignorant people looking down at you, are drug addicts and their children are underachieving miscreants.

You make a good point of pointing out why you should not even consider those comments. You said it yourselves, you and your wife are more educated and successful than they are. Again, they are below you. Don't give those people any thought.

But they STILL get preferential treatment by law enforcement, and can walk around without whispers.

This isn't true. This is what you would believe watching the mainstream media. I do believe there are racist cops out there, I don't think it's a systemic or widespread issue.

The level of **** white Americans do and not be treated the same as minorities is astronomical. I could list more, but probably will just get the same "black card" replies.

Please list as many things as you can think of. Rest assured I will not be making any black card remarks.

 

[mrhick01]

I never received any kind of special treatment, yet somehow I managed to get a degree in computer science. Have you considered that maybe those people just aren't as interested in programming? Should I receive special treatment if I'm trying to become a teacher and there's more women than men in teaching jobs? No, that's just stupid, having more of one "identity group" in a job doesn't mean other "identity groups" are being discriminated against, it simply means those people aren't as interested in doing that type of job.

I understand that most folk completely believe in what they are saying and are not attempting to operate in bad faith.

Unfortunately, there is a profound lack of knowledge and understanding about the realities of this nation and the history of this nation. The education that it appears most insulated Americans received is: "we used to have a slavery thing, but it wasn't that bad, we fought an entire Civil War over it...bla bla bla, Martin Luther King Jr., don't judge by color but content of character...bla bla bla, Barack Obama, everything's fine."

It isn't. That's why Apple's outreach program to HBCUs hold value.

I'm not going to bicker with other members of the forum...I'm a middle-aged man who has lived and seen enough America where I'm not going to "am not, am too" with others or have individuals question whether I'm engaging in hyperbole or making things up. I've participated in those internet games for far too long, for decades, and I'm just not going to do that anymore.

 

[2010mini]

Depending on when you came to America, it was either because of actual racism or if you came more recently, then it is more than likely due to the mainstream media who are set out to divide the nation by a racial basis.

I came here during the crack epidemic. And unlike the opioid epidemic facing white communities, law enforcement was brutal.

Which places can you not go?

Neighborhoods that were predominantly white

Please, if you don't mind, tell me about a couple of your worst experiences of bigotry.

Hearing parents of white classmates not wanting “that black kid over their house” Having teachers doubt your intelligence because of where I came from and my ethnicity.
Finding out my neighbor doesn’t consider my a ****** because I am not a black American..... yeah you read that right.

Again, please, if you don't mind, tell me about some of these roadblocks you speak of. This is the core of the discussion where I am looking to find some answers.

my intelligence and morals are always in question vs my equal white counterpart, do you see no logic that this becomes an issue?

Statistically blacks are more violent than any other race in the US, even towards other blacks. There is a massive disproportionality when it comes to blacks and violent crime in the US. This is probably where the stereotypes come from. I don't agree with it, but is the case with almost all stereotypes, there is always a hint of truth to them. Of course they should never be universally applied. Only low-IQ individuals would use stereotypes to attack someone simply because they are black, white, asian or any other race or group for that matter.

It is always this excuse with skewed data that perpetuates the constant cycle black Americans face. This data never takes into account the numerous racially motivated murders by whites in US history that is not part of FBI data. Such as the race riots. Also does not look at how law enforcement has been applied in black communities vs white communities of equal socioeconomic standing. If you focus more attention on one segment of society, and give them harsher sentencing. Then yes the numbers will say they commit more crimes. The US first created ghettos for blacks of all economic means (the ones who could afford to live elsewhere were prevented) gave those communities less resources. Which then breeds crime ( poor people with lack of resources tend to do more crime) and then focus Heavy handed law enforcement in those areas to solve an issue the government created.

I have experience with being an immigrant just like you. So I know it's difficult. Although I would say that if someone calls you an affirmative action hire, you should know personally from within yourself that you are above them. They have got nothing on you. If you are confident that you made it where you are because of your hard work, those types of comments really should not even put a dent in your mood let alone your perception of how you're treated in society, because people who make those comments are below you and you should know that.

It’s tiring having to ignore such attitude. It truly is.

You make a good point of pointing out why you should not even consider those comments. You said it yourselves, you and your wife are more educated and successful than they are. Again, they are below you. Don't give those people any thought.



This isn't true. This is what you would believe watching the mainstream media. I do believe there are racist cops out there, I don't think it's a systemic or widespread issue.

Its A Systematic Issue. There is no such thing as “a few bad apples” numerous investigations have proven US policing is rife with bigotry and sexism. Which other profession, that deals with life or death, are few bad apples allowed to continue to hold jobs?


Please list as many things as you can think of. Rest assured I will not be making any black card remarks.

 

[826317]

I came here during the crack epidemic. And unlike the opioid epidemic facing white communities, law enforcement was brutal.

I haven't looked into the sentencing/arrest disparities during those times yet. If I get a chance to do so I'll get back to you.

Neighborhoods that were predominantly white

Which types of neighborhoods? Upper class? What would happen if you did visit those neighborhoods?

Hearing parents of white classmates not wanting “that black kid over their house” Having teachers doubt your intelligence because of where I came from and my ethnicity.

While I completely understand your frustration hearing something like that... I must say that this has also been experienced by a lot of white kids and the parents of a black child asking his friend to come over. I close family member of mine has experienced something very similar to this first hand.

my intelligence and morals are always in question vs my equal white counterpart, do you see no logic that this becomes an issue?

For me this is a bit of a vague answer. It's not really concrete. Either way, having your morals questioned on a purely racial basis is of course not a nice experience to undergo.

It is always this excuse with skewed data that perpetuates the constant cycle black Americans face. This data never takes into account the numerous racially motivated murders by whites in US history that is not part of FBI data. Such as the race riots. Also does not look at how law enforcement has been applied in black communities vs white communities of equal socioeconomic standing. If you focus more attention on one segment of society, and give them harsher sentencing. Then yes the numbers will say they commit more crimes. The US first created ghettos for blacks of all economic means (the ones who could afford to live elsewhere were prevented) gave those communities less resources. Which then breeds crime ( poor people with lack of resources tend to do more crime) and then focus Heavy handed law enforcement in those areas to solve an issue the government created.

This is the one I have to disagree with you on the most, mostly because it is usually the mothers of black children living in the projects or in the ghetto who are pleading for more policing because their boys are getting shot and are getting involved with the wrong people. There is a very clear problem of gang violence and territorial violence within the black community, no black American living in this areas is going to deny that fact.

On top of that, the statistics that I am referring to are correct. Even if there is a margin of error of 30% (which is unheard of) it would still show that blacks are on average committing more crimes than any other ethnic group in the US. I am not sure why you would argue against these facts when the black community are actively trying to fight against gang violence etc.

I simply mentioned these statistics for the sole purpose of explaining why I believe the stereotype you mentioned exists in the first place. I am not trying to justify it or its use on individuals.

It’s tiring having to ignore such attitude. It truly is.

If you're a confrontational person maybe you could question the person making those comments to see how they react. If not, I really would just recommend you bite the bullet. I generally ignore anything that is thrown my way for being an immigrant.

Its A Systematic Issue. There is no such thing as “a few bad apples” numerous investigations have proven US policing is rife with bigotry and sexism. Which other profession, that deals with life or death, are few bad apples allowed to continue to hold jobs?

I personally think that the problem is the terrible police training that officers receive when they become police officers. Compare their policing with some of the policing techniques in some of the western European countries and the American officers look like rabid dogs ready to pounce on anyone who does or says anything they do not like. Training definitely requires major reform. Racism hasn't been proven to have been an issue in the police as an institution. Heck, there have been so many police officers in support of BLM recently.

 

[2010mini]

I haven't looked into the sentencing/arrest disparities during those times yet. If I get a chance to do so I'll get back to you.


Which types of neighborhoods? Upper class? What would happen if you did visit those neighborhoods?


While I completely understand your frustration hearing something like that... I must say that this has also been experienced by a lot of white kids and the parents of a black child asking his friend to come over. I close family member of mine has experienced something very similar to this first hand.



For me this is a bit of a vague answer. It's not really concrete. Either way, having your morals questioned on a purely racial basis is of course not a nice experience to undergo.



This is the one I have to disagree with you on the most, mostly because it is usually the mothers of black children living in the projects or in the ghetto who are pleading for more policing because their boys are getting shot and are getting involved with the wrong people. There is a very clear problem of gang violence and territorial violence within the black community, no black American living in this areas is going to deny that fact.

On top of that, the statistics that I am referring to are correct. Even if there is a margin of error of 30% (which is unheard of) it would still show that blacks are on average committing more crimes than any other ethnic group in the US. I am not sure why you would argue against these facts when the black community are actively trying to fight against gang violence etc.

I simply mentioned these statistics for the sole purpose of explaining why I believe the stereotype you mentioned exists in the first place. I am not trying to justify it or its use on individuals.



If you're a confrontational person maybe you could question the person making those comments to see how they react. If not, I really would just recommend you bite the bullet. I generally ignore anything that is thrown my way for being an immigrant.


I personally think that the problem is the terrible police training that officers receive when they become police officers. Compare their policing with some of the policing techniques in some of the western European countries and the American officers look like rabid dogs ready to pounce on anyone who does or says anything they do not like. Training definitely requires major reform. Racism hasn't been proven to have been an issue in the police as an institution. Heck, there have been so many police officers in support of BLM recently.

You edited out part of my 3rd answer. That was not an exaggeration.... those words came directly from their mouths. So glad they no longer live in this neighborhood and have since been replaced with a young family who are professionals and are decent people.