Apple Hires ARM's Lead CPU Architect Amid Rumors of ARM-Based Macs as Early as 2020

[0388631]

You apparently haven’t been following the A-series chip benchmarks. They’re getting extremely quick without the heat overhead that x86-64 has. It’s only a matter of time, years-if that, before they’re faster than most Core i chips with a much lower TDP. They’ve basically been doubling in speed every iteration and they’re already as fast at single core performance as Intel’s top consumer chips. They have a bit of a way to go for multi-core performance but no one has improved chips in the last 5 years like Apple.

Geekbench is a synthetic benchmark and isn't representative of real world use. Let the world know when an iPad Pro can encode 2-3 hours worth of video in h.265 format with as much ease as a desktop.

I'm sure Apple could design a desktop ARM processor, but its TDP won't be much better than what you can see at the midrange today on refined process nodes. And at load that thermal output could edge of, say, 150 watts.
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Zen2+.

There is no Zen2+. There is Zen 2 coming this July. Zen 3 is next year, and it's a 7nm refresh using EUV tech.

Zen
Zen+
Zen 2
Zen 3
Zen 4
Zen 5

 

[09872738]

you might want to have a look at this: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/new-ipad-pro-benchmarks,news-28453.html

The numbers actually are insane. We are talking real live sustained performance - passively cooled. Imagine what this thing (A12X) could do with Macbook Air-ish cooling

 

[0388631]

And if it isn't, Windows computers are dirt cheap anyway.

A MBA is dirt cheap to me. What's your definition of dirt cheap? Off the shelf crap? If someone is building a Windows workstation and buying quality parts, they're going to be spending quite a bit of money.
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you might want to have a look at this: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/new-ipad-pro-benchmarks,news-28453.html

Adobe Rush was originally meant to be an app. In any case, the other benchmark uses Lightroom, which isn't optimized in the first place for a normal computer. In fact, the review used laptops, not desktops.

And as per the comments:

Adobe RUSH on iPad takes the project file from the Adobe Cloud and transcodes to 1080P on the device from the start.. so you're actually just going from 1080P to 1080P on the iPad and 4K to 1080P on PC.

Get outta here with this garbage. Even if you focused on Lightroom, converting RAW to JPEG isn't resource intensive. Your processor won't spike and won't work at near 100% for minutes on end to maybe two hours depending on video complexity. Go run something like Tablet Mark then say how amazing the iPad Pro is.


If they were such amazing processors, why would Apple not use them? They've been "powerful" for years, and you can bet your ass that Apple has Intel by their balls and not the other way around.

 

[terpsbball2002]

It's my understanding that ARM based chips are cheaper than Intel based equivalents? If so, based on the current business model of Apple raising prices, I'm guessing this is more of financial decision to pocket more money they would have otherwise lost when using Intel chips.

 

[cgsnipinva]

AMD doesn't complicate the supply chain. AMD uses TSMC right along with Apple for all their CPUs.

What I meant was that you would have an additional supplier to buy from in addition to Intel which requires coordination to make sure you maintain proper inventory volumes and procurements in the pipeline, etc. There would have to be a significant increase in performance just to add another x86 supplier.

 

[rp2011]

After reading through this thread, Its obvious that it’s not a zero sum game but one in which advancements in one, can be utilized in the other. As we have seen in the history of everything.
The advancements in OS X benefited iOS, the benefits of miniaturization in cellphones and iOS brought about the Apple Watch. Each category leveraging their strengths in symbiotic development. It’s all good as long as Apple does not become myopic.

 

[Falhófnir]

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with their own chips, if no one else is... this is one area they've been continuing to excel in. Would it not be exciting to have a MacBook Pro as thin as it already is, but with the performance and temperatures of an inch-thick gaming machine? Better yet, making more room for an actually decent keyboard without even needing to increase the size of the machine!

 

[0388631]

What's worth noting is GB4 tests are easily skewed by memory speed and latency, with more emphasis on speed. You can see a swing of 1,000-6,000 points across the board on a HEDT setup going from basic, lowest possible memory speed to slightly tuned memory that doesn't require much more than enabling an XMP profile.

It's my understanding that ARM based chips are cheaper than Intel based equivalents? If so, based on the current business model of Apple raising prices, I'm guessing this is more of financial decision to pocket more money they would have otherwise lost when using Intel chips.

Cheaper in development, production, or end product to customer?

 

[Crow T Robot]

I dunno if Apple thinks this is a factor, but there are a lot of prosumer folk who want a clamshell form factor even though their use-case is all iPad-like. They just want to email, browse the web etc, but they must have a clamshell for easy typing on your lap, and the iPads are all terrible at that. For that use-case, an ARM clamshell device with all of the battery life of an iPad (and easy 4g access) and all of the IOS apps available would be very attractive.

I develop on a 2018 MacBook Pro and its battery life is absolutely abysmal. I'd love to have more battery life. CPU power isn't a major factor. Running a VM is, so I don't know how that part might work.

 

[0388631]

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with their own chips, if no one else is... this is one area they've been continuing to excel in. Would it not be exciting to have a MacBook Pro as thin as it already is, but with the performance and temperatures of an inch-thick gaming machine? Better yet, making more room for an actually decent keyboard without even needing to increase the size of the machine!

Provided the entire bottom side was copper to stainless steel as a massive heatsink, yes.
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What I meant was that you would have an additional supplier to buy from in addition to Intel which requires coordination to make sure you maintain proper inventory volumes and procurements in the pipeline, etc. There would have to be a significant increase in performance just to add another x86 supplier.

Intel can hardly keep up with demand due to their own silly decisions. I doubt it would make much of a difference here.

 

[techwhiz]

More and more ARM chips will be added to macs to add more / better custom functionality. But this is more likely about keeping iPhone / iPad CPU dominance rolling.

Agreed.

There is nothing in hiring this person that indicated a shift to ARM as a desktop processor.
People are making assumptions based on nothing.

If the hire a previous architect from Ampere Computing, Qualcomm, AWS, Cavium or Broadcom I might be interested.
This person wasn't doing desktop ARM.
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I'd rather have a MacBook Pro with an in-house M-series Apple-made chip that's four to six times faster than Intel's (and without the $1,500 per chip Intel tax).

Do you really believe that a competitor the an i9 or Xeon is going to be cheaper?
Clearly you have no idea what silicon cost when you start looking at dies that large and high performance computing.
[doublepost=1561654118][/doublepost]

Looking forward to whatever strange magic they use (like Rosetta) to get the apps working cross platform. It’s one thing dropping 32bit support, another thing entirely dropping all legacy software, I don’t think they could do that without a massive lead in.. maybe we’ll get a dual architecture dev platform or something.

I actually miss the ppc days of having unique cpus in some ways. Not most ways, but some! Having an odd cpu that performs differently is fun.

The PowerPC wasn't/isn't unique.
IBM along with some FPGA companies still have PowerPC

 

[AdonisSMU]

So will an ARM based Mac be unable to run standard, compiled for Intel applications? Where does this leave the current lineup, and even the new Mac Pro? Is buying a Mac now buying into a machine that's going to have a limited life due to the move to ARM?

What about Catalyst? Isn't that supposed to bring the iOS apps to the MAC?
[doublepost=1561654400][/doublepost]

Who says you can't be a chip designer who's totally ripped? This is a win for inclusivity.

Agrih!!!

 

[Akrapovic]

What about Catalyst? Isn't that supposed to bring the iOS apps to the MAC?

Yeah but that's the opposite way? Bringing ARM to Intel systems. Bringing full Intel based applications like Photoshop to ARM may not emulate as easily as an iPad app does.

 

[Michael Scrip]

If Apple seriously wants to get motivate Intel, the best thing they could do is throw some business towards AMD. Competition between the two would do more to spark innovation than simply going with ARM.

Would Intel be seriously affected if Apple stopped buying their chips?

Apple is the 4th largest computer vendor in the world... but they're only 7% of the computer market.

Intel would still sell an overwhelming majority of the processors to the other 93% of the market.

Granted... Apple only buys rather high-end chips from Intel... but Intel still delivers tremendous volume to everyone else.

So I'm not sure Apple going ARM or AMD would provide much motivation for Intel. There would be a drop in Intel's revenue if Apple stopped buying their chips... but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Now... if Dell, HP and Lenovo stopped buying Intel chips.... then it might be a different story.

 

[Akrapovic]

Would Intel be seriously affected if Apple stopped buying their chips?

Apple is the 4th largest computer vendor in the world... but they're only 7% of the computer market.

Intel would still sell an overwhelming majority of the processors to the other 93% of the market.

Granted... Apple only buys rather high-end chips from Intel... but Intel still delivers tremendous volume to everyone else.

So I'm not sure Apple going ARM or AMD would provide much motivation for Intel. There would be a drop in Intel's revenue if Apple stopped buying their chips... but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Now... if Dell, HP and Lenovo stopped buying Intel chips.... then it might be a different story.

Intel's business is so massive that 7% is still a very large number.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Intel's business is so massive that 7% is still a very large number.

Yes it's a large number.

But it wouldn't shutdown the company. And it probably wouldn't motivate them like the previous poster is suggesting.

The idea is that Apple threatens to leave Intel... and Intel suddenly changes their ways. I don't see that happening.

And let's be clear... Apple won't totally abandon Intel anytime soon. If Apple starts using non-Intel processors... it will likely be in just a few models.

People speculate that only the 12" Macbook and possibly the Macbook Air will go ARM. But that still leaves the 13", 15" and upcoming 16" Macbook Pro... all the iMacs... Mac Mini... Mac Pro, etc... all using Intel processors for the foreseeable future.

I didn't mean to suggest that Intel wouldn't feel pain in their pocketbook if Apple leaves.

I was just saying that Apple isn't the motivator like the earlier comment suggested.

Apple will remain a customer of Intel for a while anyway...

 

[smulji]

Yes it's a large number.

But it wouldn't shutdown the company. And it probably wouldn't motivate them like the previous poster is suggesting.

The idea is that Apple threatens to leave Intel... and Intel suddenly changes their ways. I don't see that happening.

And let's be clear... Apple won't totally abandon Intel anytime soon. If Apple starts using non-Intel processors... it will likely be in just a few models.

People speculate that only the 12" Macbook and possibly the Macbook Air will go ARM. But that still leaves the 13", 15" and upcoming 16" Macbook Pro... all the iMacs... Mac Mini... Mac Pro, etc... all using Intel processors for the foreseeable future.

I didn't mean to suggest that Intel wouldn't feel pain in their pocketbook if Apple leaves.

I was just saying that Apple isn't the motivator like the earlier comment suggested.

Apple will remain a customer of Intel for a while anyway...

As someone else mentioned, there is always AMD. Their processors, starting with the Zen 2 architecture, look very promising and competitive.

 

[bladerunner2000]

You clearly have no idea where ARM performance is going. Look up the Fujitsu A64FX implementation of the ARM architecture: it is going to be used in the Post-K supercomputer, and also look up features like the SVE. There is no reason an ARM implementation cannot compete in performance with intel high end CPUs, it is only a matter of implementation. in fact, the architecture leads itself better to high performance, and because of this, nothing prevents it from matching intel's performance at lower power consumption. The only reason these chips haven't been built in the past is that the focus was on embedded. But Apple's implementations of the ARM architecture are already good for laptop and desktop applications (look at the benchmarks for the iPhone X CPUs).

Nobody cares what their performance is like on a Fisher Price toy.

Power users know that an ARM processor will be a joke for rendering (or whatever other CPU intensive tasks they require).

 

[rp2011]

Nobody cares what their performance is like on a Fisher Price toy.

Power users know that an ARM processor will be a joke for rendering (or whatever other CPU intensive tasks they require).

Obviously people buy a tool for its specific use and strengths. But my iPad Pro (which isn’t billed as a professional video editing workhorse), renders 4K video faster than some intel laptops. It depends on the specific use case of the “Fisher Price toy”

 

[Falhófnir]

Nobody cares what their performance is like on a Fisher Price toy.

Power users know that an ARM processor will be a joke for rendering (or whatever other CPU intensive tasks they require).

iPad Pro being competitive with 2018 15" MBP in real world rendering test:

MBP: 45W H series i9/ 35W Radeon Vega 20. iPad Pro: 7.5W passively cooled CPU with integrated graphics.

 

[Michael Scrip]

As someone else mentioned, there is always AMD. Their processors, starting with the Zen 2 architecture, look very promising and competitive.

Very true.

I'm thinking about building a 12-core or 16-core Ryzen Windows system. I'm patiently awaiting benchmarks and tests. July 7th can't come soon enough!

And imagine a 16-Core Ryzen 9 3950X in an iMac... it would be a beast!

But as I've been saying... I don't think Intel would be motivated if Apple started using AMD chips or ARM chips.

Intel still does HUGE volume with all other PC manufacturers.

I don't see Intel changing their ways solely because of Apple.

If Dell, HP and Lenovo dropped Intel and switched to AMD... then Intel should be worried.

 

[techwhiz]

iPad Pro being competitive with 2018 15" MBP in real world rendering test:

MBP: 45W H series i9/ 35W Radeon Vega 20. iPad Pro: 7.5W passively cooled CPU with integrated graphics.

But that is not a full performance suite.
That is but a single benchmark. Try to do the render and a blur in PhotoShop at the same time....
Try to spawn a process with 8 threads on the iPad.
That test is anything but a real world use test.

An iPad is cannot in any way, shape or form be a laptop replacement.
The processor isn't up to snuff, no matter what a single benchmark says.

 

[Naaaaak]

Filippo's experience could assist Apple with its ARM-based Mac processors

starting as early as 2020

6 months to go. Better hire someone to start and finish this thing.

 

[rp2011]

But that is not a full performance suite.
That is but a single benchmark. Try to do the render and a blur in PhotoShop at the same time....
Try to spawn a process with 8 threads on the iPad.
That test is anything but a real world use test.

An iPad is cannot in any way, shape or form be a laptop replacement.
The processor isn't up to snuff, no matter what a single benchmark says.

And no one including Apple has ever billed it as such. And likewise the iPad Pro has strengths such as in drawing that can in conjunction with a laptop make them great a great tools individuals or together.

 

[mixel]

The PowerPC wasn't/isn't unique.
IBM along with some FPGA companies still have PowerPC[/QUOTE]
It was certainly more unique*. I didn't mean Macs were the literal only home computer using them, I have a PPC board in my old Amiga, haha. Modern Amigas are usually PPC based too. The fact Apple dropped it relegated it to niche territory.

* .. I worded it badly, obviously.