Apple Hit With $162 Million Fine Over App Tracking Transparency

[surferfb]

I guess what I'm getting at is....

How much can you trust what a company says, when that company just did what did w/ Apple Intelligence and the marketing around that and all the retconning behavior around devices "built for Apple Intelligence"?

Can you see how some of us are simply not willing to believe them right now?

Right or wrong, that's what happens to them when they break the trust, even just a little bit.

We are in an era where lying and deceptive practices are being normalized -- especially for business interests. It's awful. I hate it.

I can certainly understand why you might not believe any product marketing Apple releases right now, but I'd argue there is a difference in saying "our product is better than it actually is" vs. "we absolutely don't do this." Especially when they're saying "we absolutely don't do this" in official government proceedings and court cases.

Then when you factor in that many privacy minded people work for Apple and seem to take privacy very seriously, you have to think it'd leak if they were lying about it. It just doesn't seem worth the risk.

 

[turbineseaplane]

@surferfb Very fair -- I hope you're correct

 

[I7guy]

I guess what I'm getting at is....

How much can you trust what a company says, when that company just did what did w/ Apple Intelligence and the marketing around that and all the retconning behavior around devices "built for Apple Intelligence"?

Can you see how some of us are simply not willing to believe them right now?

Right or wrong, that's what happens to them when they break the trust, even just a little bit.

We are in an era where lying and deceptive practices are being normalized -- especially for business interests. It's awful. I hate it.

It’s certainly not going to change my perception of apple and / or my purchase decisions. Everybody will look at it differently.

 

[diskrisk]

Truly the most “guvment” moment. In an attempt to “protect consumers from pReDaToRy cOrPoRaTiOnS”, a government has taken an action that… *reads notes* benefits actually predatory corporations, at the expense of consumers’ right to privacy.

I’m not a huge anti government libertarian but sometimes I really understand them

 

[quietstormSD]

nm

 

[chrono1081]

Maybe Apple is the problem as opposed to everyone else around the world who tries to hold them to account?

At some point one has to look around and take note of all the jurisdictions that have issues with how they conduct themselves….

Apple creates a feature to show users what apps are doing with their data. France is angry. How is Apple at fault here?

 

[ArPe]

Once the European Union countries have their way at least all advertising and privacy invading entities will be equally able to track users.

Data brokers and crypto criminals own politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. They hate privacy and they love giving that data to dictators and oligarchs. That data theft and data broking keeps the public scared and makes the ultra wealthy feel even more untouchable because they know your every thought and your every move. If you even think of getting angry against the criminals who own all the wealth, they will know it before you lift a finger and they will remove your ass from the planet.

That’s how Trump has managed to get the bastard crypto leader of El Salvador to turn his country into a giant prison. Now anyone who is a threat to the American oligarchy will be renditioned to a dirty gang infested prison abroad.

 

[v3rlon]

Maybe Apple is the problem as opposed to everyone else around the world who tries to hold them to account?

At some point one has to look around and take note of all the jurisdictions that have issues with how they conduct themselves….

Like the AT&T jurisdiction, the Samsung Jurisdiction, the Epic Games jurisdiction, and the Meta jurisdiction?

Yeah, not really worried about their feelings. If a company buys off a government to sue Apple so the company can invade my privacy, I get the impression they are not on my side.

 

[v3rlon]

No they don’t. Especially not the built in system apps

You get those prompts when setting up the first time.
At least I do.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Like the AT&T jurisdiction, the Samsung Jurisdiction, the Epic Games jurisdiction, and the Meta jurisdiction?

Yeah, not really worried about their feelings. If a company buys off a government to sue Apple so the company can invade my privacy, I get the impression they are not on my side.

So you're analysis is that companies are "buying off French officials to go after Apple"?

 

[v3rlon]

So you're analysis is that all those companies (and perhaps more) are "buying off French officials to go after Apple"

Apple is the "white knight" fighting tooth and nail for user privacy...

You actually believe that?

Not saying Apple is the white knight, but surely less of a villain that is literally out to get me.
Look, for example, at AT&T who promised Chattanooga broadband for years without delivering. Chattanooga gave up and built their own. AT&T wrote legislation and handed it to Tennessee lawmakers and told them to pass it, making it illegal for other cities to do the same.
The same AT&T that used to charge $0.10 for each text message until Apple released iMessage and made messaging free. Guess which major Telco(s) tried to claim this was unfair and anticompetitive.

Apple doesn’t have to be a white knight to be better than the very low bar set by companies that view their customers as adversaries.

 

[Abazigal]

So on one hand, the EU wants Meta to stop serving targeted ads in Facebook.

In the other hand, Apple is being fined for impacting French advertisers and preventing them from doing precisely that.

Okay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[wbeasley]

Easy solution: turn off app tracking to French users and see how happy the phone users are with their government agency

 

[wbeasley]

"iOS just gets slower and buggier ever year...."

while every country and union wants their own feature sets to protect/enable/restrict users...

we seem to be getting to the stage of User Preferences AND government preferences.

there will be so many code branches and Settings checked the poor device code will be forever looking up and branching rather than doing the work you want

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Are you sure Apple is the most popular OS in France?

Careful, you’re making my point for me.

The French regulator concluded that the way Apple deployed its ATT feature constitutes an abuse of market dominance

Now, WHY would they say that? Especially as Apple HAS no market dominance in France or anywhere in the EU?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

IF we take Apple's word for it, their apps are already designed to not track across apps from other companies. Therefore, the pop up is already not necessary for Apple's apps. Is this not correct?

You can even go further.

In order for ANY company, not just Apple, to perform third party cross application tracking, they’d have the ability for companies to buy ad impressions from them which they then display on websites everywhere and within apps. This tracking would allow for someone not logged into a particular service to be inferred and tracked across many areas where those ads may be presented.

So, any company that could potentially be capable of cross application tracking MUST have a wide reaching ad network.

Apple doesn’t. Apple’s ads can only be seen by those that sign into the App Store or AppleTV. If you don’t log into the App Store, you can’t see ads. If you don’t sign in to your AppleTV, you can’t see ads. Anyone questioning whether or not we can believe Apple are hoping you don’t know this. Because once you know, it’s clear they’re being disingenuous.

 

[I7guy]

"...Apple's own advertising services are integrated directly into iOS and were not subject to the same user journey, raising concerns that Apple had leveraged its platform control to favor its own interests."

This is a key point most, if not all, Apple-stans miss. It was good that Apple kneecapped providers like FBook, etc. However, Apple has the built-in means to track you without any opt-outs. Apple tracks you insanely, and justifies its "...privacy..." claim because it does not sell your info to third parties. Instead Apple uses your massive load of tracking/fingerprinting data to -- very succesfully -- enhance Apple's own ad system.

This was shown quite quickly after ATT was deployed.

Go ahead a flame away re: How Apple is the only company you can trust.

I do not trust a single thing Tim, Craig, et. al. say. They only want to increase shareholder value, and you and I are simply the tools to do this, and I have been an Apple advocate for decades.

I don’t give a hoot if apple tracks me. The only ads I see, and I really don’t see them anymore, is in the App Store. Apple wants to use my data to sell me Apple services…Apple go for it.

There’s only one way to show Apple you disagree with their practice.

 

[dredlew]

@dredlew

I see you are disagreeing with various posts, but I haven’t seen you post what you think on this topic.

Please do share!

I have shared various opinions on this topic before. Opinions I agree with are also shared in this thread, I don’t need to repeat them. That’s what Like and Dislike buttons are for.

If MacRumors would use a proper comment platform like Disqus for news articles, there would be more efficient Like & Dislike participation, instead of creating all this noise with repetitive posts.

 

[Stuwil]

Careful, you’re making my point for me.

Now, WHY would they say that? Especially as Apple HAS no market dominance in France or anywhere in the EU?

Because the comment was buddy
They are coming after the most popular
That’s why I said are you sure they are in France

 

[laptech]

Members need to read the article again to understand where the issue is because far to many are saying there is no problem. This is where the problem is, quote from the article

Apple's own advertising services are integrated directly into iOS and were not subject to the same user journey, raising concerns that Apple had leveraged its platform control to favor its own interests.

It means Apples own advertising is not subject to the ATT rules that they apply to everyone else (the app developers). This makes ATT unfair and thus Apple has been punished for it. Basically it means Apples own advertising, no popups requesting consent but for everyone else, popup requesting consent. This means there is not a level playing field.

Every case the EU has taken issue with Apple is because Apple are saying rules do not apply to them but they do apply to everyone else (app developers other businesses). The EU is trying to address that balance by making it fair for all.

 

[MacFarmer]

Oh the french... I think Apple understands that it is a new France policy to fine Apple every year or every other year and get some money for the governments budget. They can't create anything themselves, they can't complete, so the only way to add extra tax on Apple by fining them on some stupid laws. Anyway, the fine will be financed by their own people.

 

[surferfb]

Members need to read the article again to understand where the issue is because far to many are saying there is no problem. This is where the problem is, quote from the article



It means Apples own advertising is not subject to the ATT rules that they apply to everyone else (the app developers). This makes ATT unfair and thus Apple has been punished for it. Basically it means Apples own advertising, no popups requesting consent but for everyone else, popup requesting consent. This means there is not a level playing field.

Every case the EU has taken issue with Apple is because Apple are saying rules do not apply to them but they do apply to everyone else (app developers other businesses). The EU is trying to address that balance by making it fair for all.

Again, Apple doesn’t track across apps, which is why ATT doesn’t apply to them. If they did track across apps, it would.

The only reason it’s “unfair” is because Apple is respecting privacy.

 

[bcortens]

There is another issue that no one here has mentioned yet, while we are all focusing on people who choose the do not track option the ruling also takes issue with the allow tracking option.
GDPR requires more disclosure of how the data is used than is presented by this popup meaning that if a user does allow tracking the app has to present yet another informational screen explaining how the data is going to be used. This is one of the aspects of Apple's implementation of ATT that increases friction and that is an issue.

Edit: To be clear I think do not track should be the default and that you shouldn't have to do anything to opt out of tracking. I am not defending the trackers and I think the cookie consent popups that we got are a bad solution tot he problem. However, cookie consent is better than what we had before, which was no way to opt out.

 

[surferfb]

There is another issue that no one here has mentioned yet, while we are all focusing on people who choose the do not track option the ruling also takes issue with the allow tracking option.
GDPR requires more disclosure of how the data is used than is presented by this popup meaning that if a user does allow tracking the app has to present yet another informational screen explaining how the data is going to be used. This is one of the aspects of Apple's implementation of ATT that increases friction and that is an issue.

Edit: To be clear I think do not track should be the default and that you shouldn't have to do anything to opt out of tracking. I am not defending the trackers and I think the cookie consent popups that we got are a bad solution tot he problem. However, cookie consent is better than what we had before, which was no way to opt out.

So Apple is punished for making anti-tracking that is easy to understand, a good experience, and actually works, compared to the EU’s which is needlessly confusing, a terrible user experience, and results in people just clicking yes to make the pop-up go away?

Sounds about right.

 

[laptech]

Again, Apple doesn’t track across apps, which is why ATT doesn’t apply to them. If they did track across apps, it would.

The only reason it’s “unfair” is because Apple is respecting privacy.

And your post plays nicely into why ATT does not apply to Apple and therefore why what Apple is doing with regards to advertising is unfair

Introduced in 2021 with iOS 14.5, the ATT framework requires apps to request user consent via a pop-up before tracking activity across other apps and websites. If users decline, the app is denied access to the Identifier for Advertisers (IDFA), which is typically used for delivering personalized ads.

As mentioned in my previous post, Apples ad's are built into iOS but for everyone else they have to create an app which means a popup appears asking for consent. If consent is not given that means the app is denied access to IDFA. Apple does not have this problem with IDFA because it's ad's are built into iOS which means users cannot opt out of the ad tracking you.

It does not matter which way you want to look at it, Apple has advantage over advertising which others do not have which means they have an unfair advantage ergo they get fined.