I live in NYC and the air is pretty bad. Dust enters my apartment on a daily basis. I store it in a bag when not in use just to avoid dust and my cat’s hair entering the machine.
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Apple Hit With Second Class Action Lawsuit Over 'Defective' Keyboards in Recent MacBook, MacBook Pro Models
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I live in NYC and the air is pretty bad. Dust enters my apartment on a daily basis. I store it in a bag when not in use just to avoid dust and my cat’s hair entering the machine.
All the metrics you mentioned in those bullet points have to do with the iPhone, which is lightning in a bottle that Steve Jobs did and Tim Cook has been managing like someone who is given a big estate to watch over. On his watch very little has been accomplished in a positive direction other than the iPhone. (Let's face it, the CEO of Apple has been the iPhone, not Tim Cook.)
People on this forum aren't dumb, they see the writing on the wall. A product like the Mac laptop, which has been a bulletproof piece of genius for decades, is now unusable for a percentage of customers (who paid a premium over the last gen), due to a keyboard glitch that is affecting enough users that were talking about it for 10 pages.
Someone brought up Ballmer, you could also bring up that guy that ran HP into the ground by cutting R&D to look like he was doing a great job, before he was fired for some indiscretion. Stock price is a limited way to view a company, especially in tech. This keyboard issue is a line in the sand for some users, and I don't see any value in what Apple is doing currently.
I don't care who the CEO is, Apple is no longer my company, I don't own an iPhone anymore, and the Mac laptop is definitely not my next purchase. General Motors was once a huge company too.
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First of all there was a Mac metric in the bullet list. Secondly, I'm happy to include additional non-Mac metrics:
- Apple #1 PC customer satisfaction
- AirPods 98% customer satisfaction
- Apple Watch outsells entire Swiss watch industry
- Apple Watch outsells all other SmartWatches combined
Tim Cook grew Apple wearables into $4 billion per year revenue division, equivalent to a Fortune 300 business.
And again, I'll remind people that at the time SJ stepped down, everyone thought Apple was doomed and nobody could possibly hold the line. Tim has held the line and then some. There is just no way he should be fired.
Dongles and a crappy keyboard are simply not firing offenses. There were plenty of quality problems during Steve Jobs time. PLENTY. Do people not remember this? Should Steve Jobs have been fired?
There is a contingent for whom the Mac is the best Unix workstation - Unix under the hood, plus huge commercial software support, every bit of included hardware fully supported by the OS, and a great GUI. Unfortunately, there isn't any real competitor for users needing this. And Apple seems to be on their way towards casting them off. The latest outrage being the touch bar - it's fine with me if they make F1-F12 virtual, but the Esc key really needs to stay a physical key, because using something like Vim, requires touch-typing Esc (without looking and with total confidence it has been pressed) thousands of times a day. There was a time when Apple actively courted Unix users. Now they seem to be casting them off along with the other Pro users.
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Yes, "not all is affected."
You've had one in four fail hard enough to require repair (and two more require unreasonable attention to keep working). Do you consider a 25% failure rate to be reasonable? If one of every four cars being purchased from a dealer needed to have major work, like say having its engine replaced, several times in the first year, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you think that the car company was doing a good job?
Keep in mind, the input gets quite involved too - with a trackpad, they're using touch to tell where my finger(s) is(are), and a single strain gauge to register that a press has been made. With a keyboard using similar technology, I commonly have eight fingers resting on keys, and one finger will push a little harder to indicate key selection - you can't get away with "here is what is being touched, plus, a press has been made (somewhere)", you have to be able to tell, within a quarter inch or so, precisely where the press was done on the keyboard, with plenty of other non-pressing touches simultaneously present on the keyboard. That implies not only dozens of strain gauges under the keyboard, but also some sort of very localized flexibility - that is, pressing "J" can't just trigger "right half of keyboard", it has to trigger 4th-of-6 rows, 8th-of-14 columns (made even harder because keyboard convention isn't strictly physical rows/columns, the rows are all half a column offset from each other). You need to register a slightly harder press in one of over a 75 discrete locations on the "keyboard" while simultaneously rejecting light pressure on 7-9 other locations where fingers are resting. It's going to be an ugly problem to solve, and a solution that works 80% of the time is going to have people throwing machines across the room saying, "a real keyboard wouldn't have this problem." A larger and more unruly mob than we're seeing for the current keyboard. So it really has to work 100% when the first one rolls out the door.
Personally, I think the step beyond that, a fully flat "keyboard" with haptics good enough to create the illusion of real keys - once it really works 100% - would be awesome. Because with an underlying display, the keyboard could reconfigure on the fly: switching to, say, "Dvorak" mode would be trivial, but you could also switch to the proper keyboard for any language, bring in special keyboards for special tasks, successfully do all the kinds of things they're trying to do with the Touch Bar, but without having to stare at it in order to use it (because, haptics). You could also get rid of the trackpad entirely, and just go to, say, a 2-scrunched-together-finger touch anywhere on the "keyboard", with the entire surface instantly becoming a giant trackpad until you "let go". This would make all sorts of interesting/intuitive gestures possible. (Being a single flat glass surface with no seams would also make it nearly diswasher-safe - keep it sparkling clean with a single swipe with some Windex, and none of the physical reliability/failure issues we're seeing now.) But, I think that "keyboard" is twenty years out in the future. And by then, any physical contact for entering text or interacting with the computer may seem hideously outmoded, if/when Siri gets as good as Jarvis.
700 dollars for a KEYBOARD?!? How much does the crack cocaine Apple's executives must be using by the truckload cost?!? (How else explain the exorbitant prices?!?)
A second class action lawsuit has been filed against Apple over problematic keyboards in recent MacBook and MacBook Pro models.
Like the first lawsuit last week, this complaint alleges that small amounts of dust or debris accumulating on 2015-and-later MacBook and 2016-and-later MacBook Pro keyboards can render the butterfly switch mechanism underneath individual keys non-functional, according to court documents obtained by MacRumors.
In some cases, the butterfly switches can also break entirely, resulting in the affected key becoming detached from the keyboard.
MacRumors first highlighted customer complaints about the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard over a year ago, including non-functional keys, strange high-pitched sounds on some keys, and keys with a non-uniform feel.
An excerpt from the complaint, filed on Tuesday by law firm Schubert Jonckheer & Kolbe in Northern California district court:Much of this second lawsuit echoes the first, including the proposed class:The complaint alleges that "thousands of consumers" have suffered from these issues, with customer complaints prevalent across blog posts, tweets, comments on forums like MacRumors, an ongoing Change.org petition that has received over 27,000 signatures, and even a satirical song and video.
That video is "I Am Pressing The Spacebar and Nothing Is Happening," uploaded to YouTube by song-a-day musician Jonathan Mann.
The complaint adds that Apple is "aware of" or "should have known" about the defect through either pre-release product testing, customer complaints, or a combination of the two, but has "at all times failed to disclose that the keyboard is defective" because repairs and replacements prove to be costly.This complaint, like the first, acknowledges that Apple provides a support document with instructions to clean the keyboard of a MacBook or MacBook Pro with "an unresponsive key or "a key that feels different than the other keys," but notes that the steps "will not permanently repair the defect."
Instead, many customers have to resort to the Genius Bar. In the United States, Apple charges an out-of-warranty fee of $700 to replace the keyboard on affected MacBook Pro models, as the process requires replacing the entire top case assembly, the aluminum enclosure housing the keyboard, trackpad, and speaker grilles.
The complaint shares an experience had by Joey Baruch, one of three named plaintiffs alongside Remy Turner and Christopher Martin:Apple is accused of, among other things, violating California's Unfair Competition Law and Consumer Legal Remedies Act, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, and breach of express warranty.
The complaint demands that Apple pays punitive damages in an amount to be proven at trial, publicly discloses the defect, and reimburses customers for all costs attributable to the defective MacBook or MacBook Pro keyboards. A jury trial has been demanded in Northern California district court.
Given the overlapping claims, it is likely that the complaints regarding the keyboards will eventually be consolidated into one class action lawsuit.
Article Link: Apple Hit With Second Class Action Lawsuit Over 'Defective' Keyboards in Recent MacBook, MacBook Pro Models
Um, they should have to pay more than that. They should have a penalty to pay as well, punitive damages, above and beyond reimbursement. Apple overcharges their customers to the tune of double or triple what is a reasonable price for most of their products, so their customers should get double or triple reimbursement for damages, and that money should come right out of the pockets of the executives, (past and present, as applicable,) responsible for the decision to do this. Just socking it to the COMPANY does nothing to dissuade them from further, future malfeasance, nor to deter them from doing something similar in the future, until it ends up making their products so expensive that customers stop buying them, and you know THAT'S not going to happen, because of the warping of the supply and demand curves that Apple's Reality Distortion Field causes.
As for me, I would never seriously consider buying one of these computers, because I tried typing a few paragraphs of text on their crappy, annoying, stupid keyboards, and decided I hated them, and ended up, (last time I needed to buy a new computer that ran macOS for all the software I have bought that only runs on macOS, (formerly OS X) I opted for a MacBook AIR because THEY (unlike the MacBook Nothing and MacBook Pro) come with a usable keyboard, and are much less unreasonably priced to boot. I got the one they're currently selling on Apple.com for a thousand bucks for 599, (thanks to Best Buy, a steeply discounted price during a sale, AND a coupon I had for being a student). That brought the normally Appletastic super-inflated price down to... reasonable. If it's anything like the old MacBook Air it replaced, I should see several years of use out of it before I replace it, and when I do, I'm pretty sure it won't be with another Apple product.
On the other hand, that previous MacBook Air WAS also supposed to be my last Apple product purchase ever ever ever, so... yeah, you can say I'm pretty disenchanted with Apple. They need new leadership throughout the entire corporate headquarters, and that doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.
On mine it is mainly left-alt, spacebar and cursor up that are causing problems from time to time.
Shame on Apple for building such a crappy keyboard.
(15" MacBook Pro ordered on release-day for a huge amount of money).
Shame on Apple for building such a crappy keyboard.
(15" MacBook Pro ordered on release-day for a huge amount of money).
The more I hear about this POS keyboard and all the brouhaha surrounding it, the more it reminds me of the Chevy Vega (or maybe that V8-6-4, since GM stuffed that in their "Premium" products of the day).
I've got to hand it to Tim though, he sealed the deal for me - when my Air and my 27" 5K Retina croak, it's back to the PC camp I go.
I've got to hand it to Tim though, he sealed the deal for me - when my Air and my 27" 5K Retina croak, it's back to the PC camp I go.
I'm not going to shout at you in reply, lol. You've made your opinion known.
I agree that a Mac is the best Unix workstation, the users of which I hope Apple does not discard. Just a recommendation as a fellow Vim user though, try using Ctrl+[ instead of Esc (and definitely map Caps-Lock to Ctrl!)--I found it much easier and faster to type than the physical Esc key once my fingers' muscle memory adapted. This works inside most any terminal shell in macOS, UNIX, or Linux. Having said that, I do still find myself reaching for Esc; it's the easiest (only?) way to dismiss many things, such as Spotlight Search among others, with the keyboard.
The whole thing is just so sad. My MBA 2014 is the best computer I have ever owned. Zero problems. So reliable. I love using it with MacOS.
I know the MBA is going to be discontinued soon. Technology and design changes are inevitable...that's fine....I get it. But, when it is time to replace my MBA, I don't want a laptop with a defective keyboard. The experience would just be miserable and frustrating. If only Apple would update the MBA with a few improvements and a processor refresh, I would be happy. Unfortunately, as it currently stands, Apple seems committed to this crappy keyboard. Which means I am probably done buying laptops from Apple.
Maybe they will get it fixed in the next couple of years, but this problem has lingered unresolved since the 2015 MacBook was launched. So, I doubt it. Like I said....so sad!
I know the MBA is going to be discontinued soon. Technology and design changes are inevitable...that's fine....I get it. But, when it is time to replace my MBA, I don't want a laptop with a defective keyboard. The experience would just be miserable and frustrating. If only Apple would update the MBA with a few improvements and a processor refresh, I would be happy. Unfortunately, as it currently stands, Apple seems committed to this crappy keyboard. Which means I am probably done buying laptops from Apple.
Maybe they will get it fixed in the next couple of years, but this problem has lingered unresolved since the 2015 MacBook was launched. So, I doubt it. Like I said....so sad!
This issue is extremely annoying on my very expensive 2017 15" Retina MacBook Pro, which I intended to be my daily driver for 5 years after my 2012 one had its own good 5-year run.
I am now noticing this affecting my work productivity! Every day, multiple keys are not working at random times and I have to repeat them, sometimes in much frustration, distracting me from my task I'm trying to do. I write a lot, as part of my work - and what a way to take you out of the zone!
This is simply a defective product and as a user of Apple Macs since 2010 I am disgusted that they haven't owned up to this bad design yet.
Apple owes us a free replacement program out-right, and the sooner they implement revised keyboards based on that new patent design of theirs the sooner they will incur less costs in doing it. They certainly have enough billions to learn from their mistake here so I have zero empathy for them. I already paid my $4500!
I am now noticing this affecting my work productivity! Every day, multiple keys are not working at random times and I have to repeat them, sometimes in much frustration, distracting me from my task I'm trying to do. I write a lot, as part of my work - and what a way to take you out of the zone!
This is simply a defective product and as a user of Apple Macs since 2010 I am disgusted that they haven't owned up to this bad design yet.
Apple owes us a free replacement program out-right, and the sooner they implement revised keyboards based on that new patent design of theirs the sooner they will incur less costs in doing it. They certainly have enough billions to learn from their mistake here so I have zero empathy for them. I already paid my $4500!
It was pulled form the OP.... apparently they don't just replace the keyboard.
"Instead, many customers have to resort to the Genius Bar. In the United States, Apple charges an out-of-warranty fee of $700 to replace the keyboard on affected MacBook Pro models, as the process requires replacing the entire top case assembly, the aluminum enclosure housing the keyboard, trackpad, and speaker grilles."
I don’t know what the difference is, but there’s definitely a difference, and the keyboard is much better (although still not perfect).
Yeah, he was clear that that's what the repair included, and the $450 price is in Canada so I would think it would be closer to $300 in the US.
But now that I think of it, I've got the real function key model. Maybe it is closer to $300US for this model. And considering everything it still includes, that's one more reason the emojibar is a bad idea.
I used to think the same thing. However it then dawned on me - all of the headlines and numbers look good - but how much (other than being CEO and figure head) does Tim Cook actually contribute to all of this? In other words - if you replaced Tim with someone else with a solid work ethic - how likely is it they would achieve broadly similar results? And my conclusion was - quite high probability. The fact Cook is able to do a good job doesn't mean he is the best person for Apple. Two main concerns are:
- Failure to set a clear vision or direction (or surround himself with people who can) for products and the company. This manifests in two ways. First products are introduced which then stagnate horribly, regress or die. Secondly (excluding startups) the brightest and most talented people mostly want to work for companies like Google, Tesla, even Facebook rather than Apple.
- Related to vision. Marco Armet said it best on ATP last week (from 1:29:05). Apple used to be a software company which was funded by the sales of hardware (and the software helped sell the hardware), whereas now Apple is a hardware company which uses software to provide basic support for their hardware. The big problem is Apple's leadership do not see the difference or the importance of the distinction.
You see it in the sports world, a winning coach is fired. The reason, management feels that the coach is doing a job that is expected, and given a good organization, could be doing more than the verifiable success they're having. Dwane Casey was fired as NBA head coach of Toronto after winning Coach of the Year. These are debatable decisions, however, a track record of success is not in itself a reason for a person to be seen as a great fit.
The areas in which Tim Cook is seen to be excelling, stem from product lines that were established prior to his taking over, the iPhone and to a degree the Mac lines. Both have enjoyed high customer satisfaction and good to insanely high profits.
However, when the Mac laptops were revised under Tim Cook, the first time it had actually taken a step supposedly forward since Jobs' death, it was met with a lot of criticism for being less usable for a pro user. This may be seen as Tim Cook's effect. It makes Pro users question what Apple's doing other than sell iPhones. (The Mac Pro trash can was also a miss.) The iPhone will start to wane someday, it's inevitable. When that happens, with a guy like Tim Cook at the helm, I don't see the company's vision. From a car (abandoned) to Netflix style shows, Apple seems to be following other leaders without a vision. I'll correct myself, the vision is maximize profits on the iPhone.
Recalls are generally safety related and "urgent". This does not qualify for a "recall". It would be a warranty extension. Why do a recall when many don't experience a problem? That's an unnecessary burden for the company. It's much easier to handle on a case by case basis. I'm quite certain they have worked diligently to make a v3 that is improved. And I'm sure these were also made with retrofitting affected '16 and '17 models in mind.
The situation is poor, but I firmly believe Apple has taken the negative feedback to heart and will make many corrections (not just MBP keyboards either). At least I hope they do because I'd like a new MBP but I am not interested in the '16 and '17 models. My 2013 MBP 15 has terrible image retention. Really bad retention.
The situation is poor, but I firmly believe Apple has taken the negative feedback to heart and will make many corrections (not just MBP keyboards either). At least I hope they do because I'd like a new MBP but I am not interested in the '16 and '17 models. My 2013 MBP 15 has terrible image retention. Really bad retention.
Apple will never voluntarily release data but based on testimony from those with many devices the keybaord issues affect about 40% of 2016/7 devices.
Not fit for purpose is a reason for recall.
How long before Apples faulty keyboards turn up in a competitors ad, making it look like an even bigger problem?
Better make the fix, issue the warranty recall & service your premium paying customers pronto. ...aka doing the right thing, for those unfamiliar.
Better make the fix, issue the warranty recall & service your premium paying customers pronto. ...aka doing the right thing, for those unfamiliar.
That sucks. Honestly I can't ever go to windows. What keeps me under MacBooks and iPhones is the operating systems. Love them both over the competition
Based on guessing of course....
I am not defending Apple. But if there are, for example, 50,000 that don't have a problem, why would you want to "recall" them (going back to the incorrect definition of a recall)? The percentage of failures is important, but what is more important is how many they don't need to address. So it's only makes sense, from a business perspective, to make repairs as needed, not telling everyone around the globe they get a new keyboard, fail or not.
If the keyboard design is flawed, then it's possible that all keyboards will break at some point. For those who are unaware of the voluntary fix, a recall would be more helpful.
However, Apple is in charge of whether there will be a recall or not, and it simply won't ever recall a product voluntarily (unless it's possible that someone might be injured). For those expecting a recall to just happen for some reason, unless the government gets involved, you won't see anything more than an extended warranty offer. Talking about an imminent recall is a waste of time.