Apple Hit With Second Class Action Lawsuit Over 'Defective' Keyboards in Recent MacBook, MacBook Pro Models

[corebeliefs]

If it was that high, there would be a recall. But even 1% would be enough to cause a buzz on the internet.

Where do you get this idea that there is an automatic triggered recall on a product? These companies decide whether they recall a product or not. Apple has never to my knowledge issued a recall over anything even when it's been caught red-handed with a major design flaw. It's offered to fix something for free, eventually.

I had a white iBook in the days before genius bars that Apple had me send in three times saying it had no idea what was going on. Only to then admit later publicly that it was a known issue with the video driver and offered to fix computers for people. Still, even in that case there was no recall.

Microsoft has had major problems with its line of Surface computers, to the point where Consumer Reports won't recommend them anymore. And still, no recall. The lack of a recall is not evidence of the lack of a problem in tech.

 

[simonmet]

Throw it awa_ and bu_ a new one sill_. Apple needs the mone_. _earl_ record revenues beg for faster & faster replacement purchases. Take one for the team. Then do it again. And again. Trillion dollar profitabilit_ requires _our cooperation. Resistance is futile.

Genius!!!

 

[ActionableMango]

Uhhhh..... you're saying the purpose of Apple is to make its stock go up?

That's not what I said, and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

The post I replied to suggested that Tim Cook should be fired. The people in a position to fire Tim Cook would be the shareholders, mainly the largest shareholders, which are the board of directors. They seem quite happy with him and with AAPL's stock having tripled.

The context of my post was about Tim being fired. It's a cheap shot to say Tim's not doing as well as Steve Jobs. Well no kidding, but if Tim is fired, SJ isn't an option, is he? It's irrelevant to bring him in the context of why Tim should be fired.

I don't know if anyone remembers, but when SJ handed over the reigns, nobody believed anyone could possibly fill Jobs' shoes, and it was all doom and gloom for Apple. Relative to what everyone thought would happen, Tim Cook is doing a damn fine job, and certainly nowhere near "firing" level--that's just outright ridiculous. Anyone who says he should be fired, I ask, list all the people who would have assuredly done better. Nobody could think of an adequate replacement for SJ back then because there was none, and there still isn't.

If you don't count abusive megalomanic bosses who are dead because they thought fruit juice smoothies would cure cancer, then Tim's a good choice.

 

[mr.steevo]

This happens every single time there's an issue. You assume the problem is far larger than it is because of a couple vocal members. What you don't take into account is the countless other members without issue, because they don't bother to complain.

We saw this with Bendgate (less than a dozen occurrences were actually reported), the 2012 Mac mini video issue, and numerous other problems with Apple devices. The reality in every single case was that the issue wasn't widespread.

As someone else here has said, according to Apple Store employees, they're actually seeing LESS issues with the new keyboard design than the old. I reached out and confirmed this with Apple internally.

A class action suit isn't an indication of any type of widespread issue. You can always find a lawyer to take on these suits, even if just 1 person out of millions was impacted. Again, you're letting this information influence you when in fact it too isn't an indication of a widespread issue.

You cite an online petition but anyone can sign that. How many of those that did actually own a new MBP? How many of those signatures are duplicates? Even then, a couple thousand signatures means little from a product that has sold as many as the current laptop line. You're talking about single digit percentage or less.

Maybe it's that Macrumors has a lot of newer Apple customers, but I certainly remember Apple having issues when Steve Jobs was around.
The Titanium Macbook Pro screen hinges snapping, the Power Mac Cube case cracking, the eMac video issues, the G4 iMac swing arm failure, the G5 iMac capacitors popping, Motorola not being able to supply 3Ghz PPC processors on time, the iPod HiFi still birth.

What stands out for me in this thread is the fellow singing about his space bar issues is the same guy who sang a song about iPhone 4's Antennagate.

 

[Acronyc]

Another poster said that his large company had a 14% failure rate. That's still many thousands of users.

Yeah I read that. I believe the poster said of those that chose Mac at their organization there was a 14% failure rate. That’s definitely too high for an organization and I do believe there are obviously problems with the keyboard. I just haven’t experienced problems myself over 18 months of daily use.

I’m curious as to the statistical significance of this to Apple. They must have a record of all the current gen Macs that have been serviced for keyboard failures. If it is not statistically significant I would imagine that is why they have not done much so far.

I’ve seen some posters argue that anecdotal evidence of keyboards working correctly isn’t statistically significant.

Yet most evidence provided for keyboard failures thus far is anecdotal. Even the 14% figure the other poster mentioned or the plaintiffs in the lawsuits.

The only entity that knows the statistical significance of failure rates is Apple, and they do not share this information.

It is also interesting that many seem quick to forget the problems with the previous generation’s keyboard.

And it also seems there are a lot of very vocal people talking about the keyboard that haven’t actually owned a 2016/17 MBP or used the keyboard for an extended period of time.

I’m not trying to be an Apple apologist. While I haven’t experienced them myself, there definitely seems to be some quality issues with the butterfly keyboard mechanism that I hope Apple fixes. But unless Apple releases repair information on this model, there’s no way to know how pervasive it actually is. It will be interesting to see if any of this information is released in the lawsuits.

 

[simonmet]

You can bet that $700 a pop for keyboard replacement factors into their statistical significance!

 

[thoughtdrinker]

Is this supposed to be a general design flaw affecting all butterfly keyboards, or a manufacturing flaw just affecting some keyboards or keys? I've had keys on my 2017 MacBook Pro get locked up by minuscule debris, but it's nothing I couldn't quickly fix by wiggling the key a bit or, in the worst cases, popping off the keycap and blowing out the debris. It doesn't happen regularly enough for me to consider it a major design flaw. Is my experience what people are up in arms about, or is it significantly worse than that for some?

 

[simonmet]

It is also interesting that many seem quick to forget the problems with the previous generation’s keyboard.

Such as?

I’m not trying to be an Apple apologist.

You don't have to try.

 

[CarlJ]

Mine has been on both of my new MBPs. In fact, they've been just fine for the majority of users. If it was as huge of a problem as some here seem to believe, you'd have seen mass recalls and it publicized all over national news.

The reality is that only a very small number of users have been impacted by this.

Wrong. Mass recalls happen when there is a safety issue, not merely a failure to work properly. Likely nobody will get killed by a MBP keyboard failure, so that's why you're not seeing "mass recalls and it publicized all over national news". Elsewhere in this thread there are reports of large companies seeing failure rates around 14%. That's roughly 1 in 7. Now, if you are an isolated user (not talking to a corporate IT department or similar) and you happen to be amongst the 6 in 7 who aren't seeing any problems, it's easy to say the problem must be user error or the problem doesn't really exist. And 6 out of 7 working is, indeed, the majority of users. Of course, for every person taking their machine in for repair, there are likely others who are having occasional problems and simply ignoring it, overlooking it, or assuming it's their own fault (e.g. that they must not have hit "g" squarely, because one expects a keyboard to properly transcribe exactly what they type).

Now, by definition, a product that works for 51% of the users is "just fine for the majority of users". Would you call a product that fails 49% of the time "just fine"? Or would you call it alarming? Uh huh. The test of "works for the majority" is not a reasonable test. (FWIW, the huge problems with airbags over the past half decade have been in relation to airbags that were working about half the time - and failing about half the time).

You want the failure rate somewhere down around (ideally substantially under) 1%, not at 14%, and especially not on a piece of hardware that is a key part of a user's workflow, isn't instantly interchangeable (sure, you have backups - assuming you have a replacement machine to swap in, loading from backup and getting back in action takes quite some time), takes multiple days offsite to fix, and costs a substantial fraction of the original cost of the machine in order to fix.

If you aren't having trouble with your keyboards, good for you - but don't try to minimize those who are having trouble (you're working from a sample size of 2 and yet faulting others for using anecdotal data). It sounds roughly equivalent to saying "I don't have cancer, and the majority of people don't, so cancer isn't really a problem."

 

[dumastudetto]

Disgusting opportunists.

 

[simonmet]

What stands out for me in this thread is the fellow singing about his space bar issues is the same guy who sang a song about iPhone 4's Antennagate.

Judging by the link he’s “song a day guy”. He’s probably just into tech.

 

[Acronyc]

Such as?


You don't have to try.

Here’s one that comes to mind:

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/10/2...nd-trackpad-freezes-boot-camp-install-issues/

I said that there are clearly quality issues. I’m just wondering how pervasive they actually are. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence floating around (both for those that have problems and those that don’t) and a lot of people who don’t actually own or use the newer models screaming bloody murder.

It would just be interesting to see some real rates of failure from Apple so we could see how big of a problem it is statistically.

 

[Kabeyun]

I loathe these kinds of lawsuits. However, I’d have second thoughts if it helps Apple redesign their new wooden keyboards.

 

[corebeliefs]

Here’s one that comes to mind:

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/10/2...nd-trackpad-freezes-boot-camp-install-issues/

I said that there are clearly quality issues. I’m just wondering how pervasive they actually are. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence floating around (both for those that have problems and those that don’t) and a lot of people who don’t actually own or use the newer models screaming bloody murder.

It would just be interesting to see some real rates of failure from Apple so we could see how big of a problem it is statistically.

It was my reading that this article from macrumors was reporting that a second class action lawsuit has been filed or would be filed over this issue. I didn't read this post as our needing to decide whether or not the lawsuit was valid. It goes to your view of human nature, whether people are lining up for money from Apple, which by the way, Apple has never given anybody any kind of real money in the past so there's that. Or, this is another example of a crack in Apple's monolithic design practices.

Me, I'm posting about this so when Tim Cook decides that the SPLC can vet who deserves to buy a Mac, I will be able to post in that thread, lol.

 

[smirking]

It’s been a major step backwards, and one they should’ve easily foreseen. The sound alone was not deserving of release: loud, cheap, obnoxious!

Thing is a lot of people like the new keyboard. I have concerns about the durability, but otherwise it's good in my book. I'm a mechanical keyboard guy too and I don't typically like the feel of any laptop keyboards.

The butterfly switches are not a 10/10 with me, but I like the feel better than most laptop keyboards including many of the previous MBP models.

 

[old-wiz]

I have one of those 2016 MBPs, 13", and while the keys do still seem to work, it is such a pain that I stopped using it and bought a new 2015 13" MBP from B&H. I am not going to pay $700 for a new top case. I suppose I could sell it, but I feel I would be cheating the purchaser given the problems with the keyboard. I've thought of just using it with a bluetooth keyboard, but it is hard to fit both on my lap. This is the only Apple product I have purchased since 2004 that I gave up on trying to use. It is fast, screen is great, but ... And if you do go for the $ 700 top case, you run the risk that something will break that you won't notice and then what do you do?

 

[kemal]

It is nice to know Apple hardware can still inspire creativity in their customers. Now, how do I get that "Pressing the Space Bar" song out of my head? Oh yeah, sing "Morning Train".

 

[TallManNY]

Here’s one that comes to mind:

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/10/2...nd-trackpad-freezes-boot-camp-install-issues/

I said that there are clearly quality issues. I’m just wondering how pervasive they actually are. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence floating around (both for those that have problems and those that don’t) and a lot of people who don’t actually own or use the newer models screaming bloody murder.

It would just be interesting to see some real rates of failure from Apple so we could see how big of a problem it is statistically.

It isn't just the real rates of failure, which Apple knows, and which we are all going to know once these lawsuits progress into discovery. The real question is if this is hitting their new laptop sales. I know I'm in the market for a laptop this summer. Until I learn more and get comfort that I can expect to have an operating keyboard for at least five years, I'm not buying one with these butterfly keys. If I buy a new Mac I expect five years out of it and I hope that it can last longer than that as a secondary machine.

 

[smirking]

That’s definitely too high for an organization and I do believe there are obviously problems with the keyboard. I just haven’t experienced problems myself over 18 months of daily use.

There are people claiming an over 50% failure rate at their companies. It's possible that they're not exaggerating even if the actual failure rate ends being in the single digits.

Whether your keyboard is prone to failure could be a function of what batch you got it from. A company is likely to have gotten all of their units from the same batch or at least batches that share similar pipelines for their parts so it could make perfect sense that when you see problems, you see a pile of problems. As a result, you pull your hair out because when you try and raise your concerns, everyone else is suddenly an Apple apologist who denies what is pure and simple plain truth to you.

The person who's ringing the alarms might not be crazy and those of us who think the issue is overblown might be simultaneously right too.

 

[Sedulous]

Apple makes me sad. Confused product lines, poorly considered hardware designs that not only fail prematurely but also feature repairs that cost far more and are more difficult than any PC, and more software issues than anyone should expect (i.e. they still have not fixed file sharing dropbox in macOS).

Why doesn't Apple seem to learn? Gluing the battery into the computer such that a simple battery replacement requires disassembly of the entire computer and replacement of the entire top case IS NOT A GOOD DESIGN. Keyboards that not only lack any significant water resistance (much less fail from slight dust) costing $700 (and again) requires disassembly of the entire computer and replacement of the top case because the keyboard is riveted to the case IS NOT A GOOD DESIGN. Soldered storage/RAM IS NOT A GOOD DESIGN.

These sorts of idiotic design choices are what prevent me from buying another Mac. It makes no sense to me that if RAM/Storage goes bad, it is a $800 repair. If the crummy keyboard goes bad, it is a $700 repair. When the battery needs replacement (and they always do), it is a $250 "service". For even a garbage PC, any of these repairs costs less than $100, take less than 10 minutes, and often can be done at home (and you don't even need bizarre specialty screwdrivers). Why Apple, why!?!

 

[apolloa]

Wasn’t the new flawed keyboard design made in the name of thinness? Because that’s how Apple innovates these days, by making stuff thinner for no reason.

 

[kemal]

Its very unethical from Tim Cook to charge 700 US$ for a keyboard.

He is not charging $700 for a keyboard. He is charging $700 for the value a keyboard gives you.

 

[NovemberWhiskey]

Good. With that much money, it's shameful that they still deny these flaws exist and still screw some customers over. It shouldn't take a class action (or 2) to get them to take action.

 

[corebeliefs]

He is not charging $700 for a keyboard. He is charging $700 for the value a keyboard gives you.

They will hire you for that kind of thinking.

 

[theluggage]

Don't worry, Apple will make a giant touch pad and remove all the keyboards

Maybe that's not such a daft idea?

Apple are good at haptics - the Magic Trackpad 2 with "force click" is spookily convincing and feels as if it has almost as much travel as a butterfly keyboard - despite having none. If they could create a touch keyboard, ultra thin, totally sealed and immune to dust but yet with the same illusion of travel you get with the trackpad then they might actually have something special. Its easier to get used to a new "feel" when typing if it comes with benefits like being dust, grease and beer-proof and could be cleaned with a damp cloth.

...a proper "pro" line that prioritised power and versatility over size (and revived the old, really good and proven scissor keys), alongside the stunning ultrabook designs would be nice too, though.