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I doubt Apple is exclusively guilty of (legally) tax-dodging, as all these corporations do this. That said, I have no problem with Apple & other companies actually having to contribute to the public welfare as we all do. And no, this does not mean that they're off the hook because they make great devices and software, because no individual gets off the hook no matter all the long hours, effort and quality they put into their jobs.

As far as Applecare: I've always found it to be a rip-off. I mean, Apple advertises its products as the cream of the crop (with which I generally agree), but then makes you pay through the nose to cover non-accidental issues, essentially manufacturing defects?- After you've paid through the nose for the device itself already? Why are we paying twice. Yeah, that Dell is crap but I can buy two or three of them for the price of a Mac + Applecare.

If you claim quality, back up your product with the warranty. Good for the EU for raising the bar and making companies deliver. I don't always agree on what they do, but this makes sense, from a consumer protection point of view, an economic point of view and even an environmental point of view.
 
I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

Business taxes are just another way to tax you that seems invisible.

You are paying it just the same.

Sheesh!

I always find it interesting just who throws the idiot tag around.

If a business doesn't pay tax, it just adds to the profit. The nonsensical suggestion here is that corporations (artificial entities owned by groups of people) should not pay taxes and somehow would pass all the benefits on.

Ofcourse there wouldn't be an individual left who wouldn't incorporate and join in the the fun = nobody pays tax.

The crazy notion of not really paying the tax could be equally put as the individual doesn't pay tax, it is their employer or business. We could go on and on, but it doesn't take much intelligence to see where this all leads.

What is so sad is that this argument seems to be the outcome of both a failed education system reinforced by an appallingly bad media, pandering to and supplied by people of equally bad education. It surely isn't possible that something in a nation's water supply has lead to a collective diminishing of the nation's IQ over the last decades, surely?
 
That's got to be one of the stupidest reasons for protesting that I've ever heard of. If American companies are keeping money over seas to avoid taxes, then the answer is mind numbingly simple - reduce the taxes to the point it is not advantageous to keep the profits out of the country. As in most problems with the world today, the answer begins with reigning in government.
Quite obviously stupid taxation policies like this are one of the primary culprits for the decline in American manufacturing. No wonder America is now known as a country unfriendly to business.
Uncut nothing but short-sighted, simple-minded retards.
 
If Apple unrightfully avoided their taxes, I don't find it too bad that they are put in the same bag as those who didn't. Just pay the amount you owe.

And I love European laws.

Then move to Europe.
 
Time to quit this free trade BS and bring back tariffs. Sure, everyone likes paying less for whatever you buy. But as long as unemployment is high, the middle and lower class who pay most of the taxes, will have higher taxes to pay the welfare bill. ALL taxes are to high. But until the code is fixed, pay your fair share according to the law. Don't like it, quit electing idiots who screw it up more.
 
Apple and every other company, US-based or not, pays US taxes on profits of products sold here. So I'm not sure your tariff idea does anything but raise prices for you and me.

That's the idea. Raise the prices on goods made by US companies in a foreign country that are being sold back to the US. The whole point is to raise those goods to a price that is comparative to what it would cost to make in the US (or more) so that companies stop shipping our jobs overseas in the first place (or punish them if they do).

That is the only reasonable way I can see to stop outsourcing which is KILLING this country. We wouldn't be in the mess we are today if those jobs hadn't left in the first place. And if you have a good job, you can afford to pay a bit more for goods. It's better than having slightly cheaper goods and a minimum wage job at McDonalds. And if you think that these companies are passing those savings from outsourcing on to the consumer when they don't have to, you're kidding yourself. Apple's computers didn't suddenly drop in price when they moved assembly from the US to China. They kept the profits. They have no direct competitors so it was easy for them to do. Most Apple users never even noticed they were moved.

What Apple is NOT paying US taxes on now are profits made on sales outside the US. Because they are a US-based company, they would like to repatriate the profits from overseas sales, but the tax rate on these repatriated funds is 35%. That'a much higher than the marginal corporate tax rate of almost any other country. Which is why Apple keeps the profits overseas.

Like I said, if they want the money in the US, they can pay their flipping taxes. Otherwise, I think they should move to China or wherever they're making their money. Obviously, they want to bring that money back here for a reason and it sure as heck isn't to help you or me.

Actually, if you or I (US citizens) move to a foreign country to work for a while we get to exempt something like $80K per year, plus some expenses, from US tax.

That's moving. I'm talking about corporate big whigs staying here and letting cheap labor do the work overseas. They want their profits back here so they can cash in on them (they cannot pay people here with money made over there without paying that tax so they have to use other funds). I say let those people move to China if they want to cash in. If you enjoy US protection, you pay US taxes. PERIOD. Clearly, based on respones here I'm not the only on that feels that way. The less taxes corporations pay, the more you and I have to pay to make up for it. So either way we pay. At least keeping the jobs here would mean US workers have jobs and their income tax would also go to supporting this country (instead of Communist China).

Frankly, I think we should make all trade with China illegal the same way it's illegal to trade with Cuba (embargo). That would put a dent in the Chinese trade surplus and force companies to make goods here or at least in a non-Communist country.

For all those bitchin' about Apple and others taking jobs out of the country, let me explain something to you: it is not Apple's fault, it is not the governments fault, it is YOUR fault! If you want American jobs to stay in America, then buy American. Even if it is more expensive.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. What American goods??? I couldn't buy American if I tried in most cases because it's GONE. I don't shop Walmart if I can help it. I shop at Union groceries and I'm paying 2x as much to get the USA made New Balance shoes (which are superior quality anyway if you look at the shoe features). Frak Communist China. We need FAIR trade, not FREE trade. That massive trade imbalance is destroying this country.

That's got to be one of the stupidest reasons for protesting that I've ever heard of. If American companies are keeping money over seas to avoid taxes, then the answer is mind numbingly simple - reduce the taxes to the point it is not advantageous to keep the profits out of the country.

Stupid??? ROTFLMAO. I got news for you, if you drop their taxes to move money back here you only give them more incentive to move jobs overseas!!! Or do you seriously believe that tax has something to do with outsourcing? It does not. Cheap labor is the reason we have outsourcing. GE didn't pay a DIME in taxes last year. That hasn't stopped them from moving jobs overseas. :rolleyes:

The only thing lowering that tax will do is encourage them to make more money overseas and roll it bak here at little to no cost. Thus they'd enjoy the benefits of US protection, but pay none of the costs. We don't need their profits here. We need JOBS here. That wouldn't change a bit.

Quite obviously stupid taxation policies like this are one of the primary culprits for the decline in American manufacturing. No wonder America is now known as a country unfriendly to business.
Uncut nothing but short-sighted, simple-minded retards.

That's a total crock of BS. You could reduce corporate taxes to zero here and it wouldn't stop jobs from being outsourced due to cheap labor rates (see GE example above; they paid ZERO taxes here last year; they've outsourced tons of jobs to India). Your arguments have zero merit and yet you talk about others' arguments being stupid. :rolleyes:

I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

Business taxes are just another way to tax you that seems invisible.

You are paying it just the same.

Sheesh!

Yes, you are paying it just the same. But there's one big difference with a tariff. The jobs would stay here since there would be no incentive to move jobs overseas if local goods had the final price advantage. Thus, even though goods would be higher, we'd have more US jobs. As it is now, we pay less for goods, but we end up paying the difference either in taxes or debt. There is no free lunch outsourcing so we might as well do what's right and have incentives to keep the jobs here and I don't mean getting rid of minimum wage.
 
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Like I said, if they want the money in the US, they can pay their flipping taxes. Otherwise, I think they should move to China or wherever they're making their money. Obviously, they want to bring that money back here for a reason and it sure as heck isn't to help you or me.

I'm sure what your suggesting would guarantee Apple moves more tech,design and admin overseas and stops being an American company.
Here in Sydney we offer a very similar climate and culture to San Fran. We would welcome Apple with open arms. Even if they just move the Maps team here and pouch Google staff from the Earth team here in Sydney.

Hey if Apple did bring back that cash at 35% do you think the government will do anything worthwhile with their cut or is it better that is goes to employing more people at Apple HQ, or payrises for all, or building the new Apple campus or another data centre or any number of other things Apple could spent the money on all of which will make jobs and increase income tax revenue so that the government still gets it's cut?
Which is more likely to have a direct benefit to you?
 
I beg to differ:

- Nvidia based Macbook Pros failed during the second year on average.
-The plastics for the Macbooks (both top and bottom case) were failing well after 90 days
- Hinges for Macbook Airs failed after 90 days as well

All your examples have been publically admitted by Apple to be manufacturing defects and they provide exceptions and extended service for those issues, the nVidia issue is even covered for 4 years if I remember correctly.

The standard 1 year warranty that Apple provides is completely volountary and can't even be compared to the 2-3 years consumer rights.
After the first 6 months it's up the consumer to prove that it is a manufacturing defect and nothing else, which is almost impossible to do.

I've worked at both HP technical support and AppleCare and it's quite a difference when it comes to handling consumer law claims. The procedure at HP was simply "We don't want to argue about it, just fill in this form and proceed as any in-warranty repair". Apple though,.. the law states that the consumer has to prove the manufacturing defect and Apple will settle for nothing less.
I once called Acer support regarding my mothers out-of-warranty laptop who's hard drive had failed. When the support technician confirmed that it was out-of-warranty I said "So that's that then?", and he responded "Well, ofcourse, you could claim this as a consumer law case"... So I did and my mother got the failed hard drive replaced for free!
A consumer law claim on an oow hard drive, that's almost to generous.
 
After the first 6 months it's up the consumer to prove that it is a manufacturing defect and nothing else, which is almost impossible to do.

It's not quite that hard. Remember, the standard of proof in most countries for civil cases is on balance of probabilities- so 51% will do. It is not prove in the criminal sense.

A few people I know have gone as far as small claims court and won. The easiest thing to do is google and show some other people are having the same problem (it doesn't have to be a major issue, say like the old plastic MBs cracking which Apple admitted was a big problem, just a few other examples). Show you have looked after it well (eg a case etc), and try to find what has actually caused the problem.

Although judges should be impartial the ones who deal with small consumer cases are not the big scary mega-rich ones, they are just like ordinary people who have probably had similar problems with products themselves. In reality, they often show leniency towards the consumer because they sympathise.

The other big thing is that it is often too much hassle for a big company to actual turn up on the day, so you pretty much win by default!
 
Consumer Protection Laws

The consumer protection law in Norway is well understood by most. 5 years. However, business purchases aren't covered by this law so there is still a place for AppleCare.
 
Two levels of service

I doubt Apple is exclusively guilty of (legally) tax-dodging, as all these corporations do this. That said, I have no problem with Apple & other companies actually having to contribute to the public welfare as we all do. And no, this does not mean that they're off the hook because they make great devices and software, because no individual gets off the hook no matter all the long hours, effort and quality they put into their jobs.

As far as Applecare: I've always found it to be a rip-off. I mean, Apple advertises its products as the cream of the crop (with which I generally agree), but then makes you pay through the nose to cover non-accidental issues, essentially manufacturing defects?- After you've paid through the nose for the device itself already? Why are we paying twice. Yeah, that Dell is crap but I can buy two or three of them for the price of a Mac + Applecare.

If you claim quality, back up your product with the warranty. Good for the EU for raising the bar and making companies deliver. I don't always agree on what they do, but this makes sense, from a consumer protection point of view, an economic point of view and even an environmental point of view.

In general, I have found AppleCare protection through Apple's official stores to be not just good, but amazing. Next day service, super friendly, and flexible. Unfortunately the quality and speed of service doesn't seem to translate through to so-called authorized repair centers. Week long repairs, also sorts of can't do, won't do. Just generally frustrating. I want Apple to open a store in Oslo and put these obnoxious places like Humac and Eplehuset out of business.
 
Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

Having been to Italy many a time I can vouch that the above is indeed correct.;)

Straight from the horses mouth .. well .. PDF. I got this from the EU site.

Product guarantees
The fact is that a two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU (Directive 1999/44/EC). In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.

Le fait est qu’une garantie de deux ans s’applique à la vente de tous les biens de consommation partout dans l’UE (directive 1999/44/CE). Dans certains pays, ce peut même être davantage, et certains fabricants choisissent également d’offrir une plus longue période de garantie.

As for the price of goods, if they were made in the US, would go up. I'm a bit of an Anglophile and love Joe Meek electronics. When their TwinQ (Pre-Amp, EQ & Compressor) was hand made in England it was £500 now it's made in China for about £780! No jobs and a dearer price. Destroy the WTO!:mad:
 
The fact is that a two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU (Directive 1999/44/EC). In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.

I have read that PDF as well. Unfortunately whoever wrote it at the EU doesn't really understand that directive. If you look at the actual directive here it says in Article 4-

1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods...

(It goes on to say the 2 years is a just a minimum. In the UK for example we have a limit of 6 years).

That may seem like it is imposing a 2 year guarantee at first glance, but it actually is slightly different. The key is the word "conformity", just because something stops working that does not mean it didn't conform to the contract. All consumer goods are covered by this act, but it would be crazy if I could sue a seller 2 years later because my pen stops working!

The directive states what conformity should mean, and it includes "quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type". So if my MacBook stops working after 18 months I need to show that it didn't show "normal quality" then I can get a remedy. I expect I may be able to show that. However, going back to the example above, if my pen stops working after 18 months I would say it had still shown "normal quality" so it did conform to the contract so I have no right of remedy.


The lesson here is always go to the actual legislation for information!
 
According the the EU directive I have in front of me (1999/44/EC that lays out the rules on consumer contracts that had to be implemented by member states) the seller is liable from the start. Where did you get that information from? I don't know about Europe as a whole but in the UK you can't sue a manufacturer for faulty goods as you don't have a contract with them. You can only sue them if their product causes you injury etc.

In Italy when the good fails during the 1st year you can either contact the seller or the manufacturer.

Depending on the policies in place, the seller could just give you a new item, or simply contact the manufacturer on your behalf.

In the second scenario it would be advisable to contact the manufacturer yourself to save some time.

During the second year, for manufacturing defects (like a chip that is known to fail after 13 months for instance) the seller is responsible. If the manufacturer does not acknowledge the defect, the loss will be on the seller.

In this specific case, where Apple is the manufacturer and the seller, when the product develops a problem during the second year, Apple will simply quote you for a repair and, if the defect is severe and later gets recognised as manufacturing defect, will refund you.

A third party reseller would simply (after some struggle) take the product back.

In the UK clearly your statutory rights are different.
 
All your examples have been publically admitted by Apple to be manufacturing defects and they provide exceptions and extended service for those issues, the nVidia issue is even covered for 4 years if I remember correctly.

The original poster stated:

"If a 'defect in manufacturing' doesn't show up in the first 90 days, it probably will never show up while I own the product"

I was simply arguing that, unless you bought a bike, a defect in a computer is likely not going to show up during the first 90 days of purchase.
 
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Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
What IS required is a two year defects liability. But what does that mean?
You're wrong. Italian Executive Order # 206/2005 states the following:
"The seller is responsible for every defect of a sold product. [...] The seller is responsable for every defect discovered by the consumer in a 24 months time-lapse [...] and MUST provide a cost-free reparation and/or a product replacement to eliminate the defect of the product. [...] If no remedy is possible to restore the full functionality of a faulty product, the consumer has the right to ask for a refund of the bought product".
 
Again, companies don't PAY taxes, they COLLECT taxes. Only consumers PAY taxes.

Talk about a whoosh. The point is that only people pay taxes. Corporations just collect the taxes from the consumers who buy the products through higher prices (and lower wages to employees) to pay those taxes.

I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.
You're all correct, I'm quite put in my place. I was an idiot to think I knew anything about finance.

Although, I don't suppose any of you know what "labor" is? Or the significance to this topic?
 
Talk about a whoosh. The point is that only people pay taxes. Corporations just collect the taxes from the consumers who buy the products through higher prices (and lower wages to employees) to pay those taxes.

Imagine a one person company, me. Say I make $10,000 per year. A friend wants to join me and she was making $10,000 per year doing consulting like me. Together we made $20,000. Say we paid 20% per year in taxes individually so we each paid $2000 in taxes and retained $8,000.

Now we form a corporation, we still bring in $20,000/year. Now we pay a 40% corporate tax rate. So, we pay $8000/year in corporate taxes, leaving $6000/year for each of the two of us ($12000 total), plus we pay 20% income taxes on the $6000 each. We can't live on that, so what do we do?

If corporations being asked to pay taxes on profits then your argument is simply apologist twaddle. In your example you and your friend's income would show up as a corporate expense and not be taxable. If you and your friend wanted to buy an office building that would be an expense and not be taxable. If you and your friend wanted to leave the money with the corporation and not take it as income to yourselves or employing others then that would be a taxable profit for the corporation. Only taxed once.
 
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Les Kern said:
https://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/2...alian-investigation-into-applecare-offerings/Image
.....an effort that has seen Apple banding together with other major companies to lobby for one-time tax breaks on profits currently being held overseas.

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem angry.
 
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econgeek said:
Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.

Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?

If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.

These kinds of anti-business policies just result in even MORE lost jobs as companies relocate.... and you can't blame them.

It's not as if the federal government is being responsible with its spending, or has been in the past 40 years.

Well said.
 
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

Does it really need to be explained? We have a form of government in which we do not have a direct voice but rather elect representatives who speak for us. If people don't know about a given problem (like companies avoiding taxes) then few, if any, will be asking their representatives to do something about it. If nobody's asking, then the rep will feel no incentive to do so. Getting the word out does exactly that. These sorts of demonstrations and information campaigns are very grassroots of our political system in action.
 
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Well said.

That echo you think is total agreement is from the bottom of the hole you have dug yourself into. Yet again.

Still not getting how it is that every Republican administration runs up massive deficits, that the following Democrat admins have to fix.
 
Originally Posted by econgeek
You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.

I think American companies should be operated for the good of America. If not, then they should move out and make room for companies that do want to operate for the good of this nation. It makes me sick to watch American companies sleep with a Communist nation like China. We have an embargo against piddly Cuba, yet we sleep with nuclear armed China that screws us over with the trade deficit every year. How is that good for America? It's not. It's good for a couple of upper-ups in some corporations that moved over there to get virtual slave labor and some of their stock holders, perhaps. It's not good for workers here and it's not good for the country. Those laws are not good for this country. We need FAIR trade, not free trade. The laws of this country are supposed to be for this nation and the people of this nation so you tell me why the laws are organized to support the top 5% instead of the other 95%. :mad:

It's simple. Money talks. Corporations can lobby with unlimited funds now. It'll get worse. The people of this country aren't be represented and the interests of the COUNTRY sure as Hell aren't being represented! :mad:

Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?

Why not everyone get a job at Walmart or McDonalds? Why not get rid of minimum wage? Why not get rid of Medicare? Why not get rid of social security? Why not get rid of worthless poor people that can't work 16 hours a day for pennies? Why not get rid of child labor laws and Osha? Why not get rid of all undesirables in general? :rolleyes:

If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.

My property??? MY property? They move to flipping China so they don't have to even pay MINIMUM WAGE for god's sake! Have you ever tried to live off minimum wage? Have you? Frak your so-called economics. Put the word GREED in there and you have it right. :mad:

Ethics and morality is dead in some humans. They're not humans at all, IMO. They're monsters. The definition of evil is putting oneself ahead of everyone else in the world without limits. It starts small and keeps on going until you can't see where you started from. During the great depression, all kinds of unspeakable crap went on. Oh, you don't like working on this bridge with no safety protocols what-so-ever for a dime a day? Go die somewhere. The guy behind you will do it. He'll probably die in an accident. Oh well, there's another guy behind him ready to take his place since they're starving. Yeah, that's how it is. Supply and demand. I supply crap and you eat it and like it. Frak that crap. That's what unions were invented to stop.

The way I see it, if you don't want to do business in this country with fair labor and safe working standards, MOVE THE FRAK OUT! Take your business to Communist China and live there yourself. You don't deserve to live in the greatest country on Earth. This country used to stand for something. We used to have an American Dream. Now it's a flipping nightmare of banks yanking fortunes out from under people and people doing giant pyramid schemes to steal retirement funds. We're a nation of thieves and scan artists and greedy CEOs that can't even bring themselves to pay $6 an hour for hard labor and now the Republicans want to take Medicare and Social Security away so they can have ANOTHER tax break! Billionaires can't afford to pay any taxes.... :rolleyes:

Yeah, let 'em work until they drop.... :mad:
 
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