Apple Implicated in New Report on Chinese Forced Labor

[1146331]

I find it disingenuous to state that "Apple is implicated". The Chinese government is in (mostly) total control of the workforce and can set whatever policies they want. Good? Bad? Doesn't matter. There's not much Apple - or any other western company - can do about it except pull out of China... and that would be silly. Could they enforce paying workers more? Sure. Could they enforce worker protections? Not a chance.

It actually is on Apple. They choose to do business with slave labor supporting countries while touting themselves as a moral company. They could easily manufacture their devices in a 1st world country with modern pro-labor laws with how much they are charging for their products.

You don't become an 80 billion dollar company by having morals though.

 

[ksgant]

I think you're struggling a little with comprehension. I DO NOT believe these things. I also DO NOT believe Apple is the magical, eithical, full of philanthropy organisation lifting billions out of poverty for the good of human kind; unfortunately some folks here do believe these things. For the record, I do not believe Apple deserve very much credit at all and I wouldn't being over-stating my case if I said I find this organisation quite despicable at times.

Ok.

Do you use their products still? If so, why? Why not dump them and go for a more ethical company? If you do still use them, isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Also, if you HAVE dumped them and gone elsewhere, why do you still come here at all? To an Apple-centric website. That talks about Apple things. I don't like how Gibson guitars opperate or their products produced...so I don't go to Gibson centered websites and go on their forums to proclaim that I don't like them. I mean, why would I?

Just curious. You make a good case...but I have to wonder "why are you even here then?"

 

[ghanwani]

Apple benefiting from forced labor? No way!

 

[Plutonius]

I'm assuming they just took a list of companies manufacturing in China.

 

[mazz0]

This isn’t really true. Other high end smartphones aren’t that much cheaper (if at all) than iPhone. Apple sells tens of millions of products every quarter. That is not the definition of luxury.

Yes, but those other companies make most of their sales at the lower end, with significantly smaller margins. We could get into a semantic argument about what high-end and luxury mean, but I think we can agree most people on below average income don’t pay Apple prices for their phones, even for non-Apple phones.

By the same logic, the consumer, the Ultimate Enabler, is just as responsible. Now that you know, are you going to continue to buy these products? And haven't you wondered how these extremely complex products got so affordable so fast? Didn't you wonder about all that manufacturing moving to a dictatorship? And then, did you continue to buy the product?...

Indeed not, I didn’t wonder any of that, it’s always been incredibly obvious; I don’t think any of us, customer or company, can claim ignorance as an excuse here. The difference is I admit my ongoing culpability, I don’t put out bull**** statements about how I maintain high ethical standards in my consumer goods purchasing.

One thing I do claim ignorance of, as I suspect we all do, and which I’m mildly curious about, is just how much more it would cost, either in absolute terms or as a percentage, per iPhone, to manufacture them with western style working conditions. My hunch is that it wouldn’t be all that much, but my hunch is worth pretty much nothing!

 

[ksnell]

I feel that this whole "get everything made cheap in China in massive quantities" thing is just the current terrible phase in Human history and just like it happened with slavery in America or the Holocaust, it has to end. This is neither sustainable nor good, and we have to stop turning a blind eye to it. China is revealing itself to be incredibly evil and our dependence on them makes us just as bad. Either the Western world will come to depend on China more and more, and will continue support and facilitate the abuse of human rights there, or they will withdraw and have to rethink their manufacturing chain. Even if companies like Apple start to enforce the respect of human rights, we are still continuing to empower a communist dictatorship by giving them our money and by being dependent on their skill and manufacturing infrastructure. Once China has enough power they can do whatever they want (or maybe it's already the case now).


Either way, there are going to be tensions with such a huge and powerful country. If bad stuff does happen, China and the US/EU will be against each other in a new world war, and it won't be pretty. And people will say "how did we not see this coming?". We saw it coming, but as usual, we just didn't do anything.

So true, and Apple is definitely in the prime position to initiate this change. They have the capital. They work hard to be on 100% renewable energy and use renewable resources which makes us feel good, but what about their human capital? It is a huge black mark on their resume.

Ultimately, the biggest changes we can make as consumers is to make this a priority over price of devices, and Apple will follow because shareholders will demand it.

 

[Nicky G]

This is totally inexcusable. I'm not even sure how to respond, given how many companies appear to be utilizing Uighur slave labor at this point. It's a mess. This is what happens, when you have China feeling that the Americans won't give a crap about anything they do inside their borders, which is what Trump has done. While the Chinese are at fault here, we are the enablers.

 

[farmboy]

Whats the next phase? Everything is made by robots and millions starve in the streets?

That, my friend, is actually going to be one of the biggest issues for humanity and capitalism in the rest of the 21st century. This is assuming we haven't otherwise destroyed the planet thru our usual stupidity and shortsightedness. A balance will have to be found between automation and (messy) human labor.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Using this logic....if you hire a hitman to kill someone then you are not at all involved? Don't think you quite have this correct.

Yeah.. that's the same thing. Nice logic.

 

[name99]

IF the report is true. Is it?
America has a long history of being suckered by foreigners with a grievance who know exactly what buttons to push to get them excited.

There's the whole sorry mess in Vietnam of course.
There's this monster (mostly forgotten) from the mid 1970s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Savimbi#United_States_support
In the Gulf War we got:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Then ten years later we believed everything this guy had to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

So forgive me if I'm not going to raise my pitchfork and storm the village on very thinly sourced claims that seem to, remarkably, match every one of America's well-known triggers.

 

[kemal]

Are they still Uyghur by the time the PRC gets through with them? Gotta love a government that considers factory work as the last step in "rehabilitation".

 

[gugy]

China is really tough.
I worked there a couple of times in Beijing, and I remember vividly the first project I arrived from California and went straight to meetings. At 6 pm, I was so jet-lagged and told the Chinese that I was leaving and going to my hotel. They looked at me funny.
The next day, I only worked 8/9 hours and left. A few days went by and start to get acquainted with the people, they would reveal that their work shifts were at least 12 hours and sometimes 16.
I was shocked but could see why they would do it. It's too many people, and they are afraid of losing their jobs. Because I was a foreigner, they respected me, but being Chinese; you are just another number, so no wonder they kill themselves to keep the little income they get.

All this happened in a high-end company with offices all over the world working on fancy projects. I can't imagine what it looks like in factories like the ones in the article. Pretty sad.

 

[[AUT] Thomas]

Also, the margins matter little if people are willing to pay. They set the price for what they think the item should cost based on RND, marketing, manufacturing, delivery, floor space, etc. Apple is notorious for spending a lot on RND and marketing. Looking at the iFixIt teardown of parts means nothing in reality.

You gave yourself the answer why saving a couple bucks on manufacturing or parts mean nothing. And if people are willing to pay you can as well raise the prices by 20$, keep your margin in place but have fair wages.

 

[ani4ani]

Ok.

Do you use their products still? If so, why? Why not dump them and go for a more ethical company? If you do still use them, isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Also, if you HAVE dumped them and gone elsewhere, why do you still come here at all? To an Apple-centric website. That talks about Apple things. I don't like how Gibson guitars opperate or their products produced...so I don't go to Gibson centered websites and go on their forums to proclaim that I don't like them. I mean, why would I?

Just curious. You make a good case...but I have to wonder "why are you even here then?"

Well I’m here because I like to read about tech, which for two reasons this site provides a good source a) around 30% of the articles are not directly Apple and b) at no time have I have suggested Apple don’t make good products. In the main, they design some of the best you can buy. I don’t buy much of their stuff these days (no where near as much I used to) but I have some. I’m not sure there are options for a more ethical buy, so in general my contribution to being a “better” citizen is to just buy less, period.

I would add a third reason I’m here is that in general the discussion here is “healthy” and generally in good spirit aside from the extremes on both sides of the argument which you get in most places these days

 

[Abazigal]

I'm always amused by the people who shout "screw you Apple!" over labour conditions, and then rush to use a Windows PC made in similar conditions, an Xbox made in similar conditions, an Android phone made in similar conditions... it's really just a thinly-veiled attempt to tie their irrational hatred of Apple to a sense of moral superiority.

 

[ani4ani]

I'm always amused by the people who shout "screw you Apple!" over labour conditions, and then rush to use a Windows PC made in similar conditions, an Xbox made in similar conditions, an Android phone made in similar conditions... it's really just a thinly-veiled attempt to tie their irrational hatred of Apple to a sense of moral superiority.

I don't think it’s how you describe. I doubt Apple are any worse or better than the rest with their manufacturing practices; it’s just Apple are constantly claiming that they are the most environmental, ethical and humanitarian and inclusive. It’s Apple who are always claiming the moral high ground

 

[T-R-S]

Samsung is ever worse they have child labour and conflict minerals in their supply chain

 

[Abazigal]

I don't think it’s how you describe. I doubt Apple are any worse or better than the rest with their manufacturing practices; it’s just Apple are constantly claiming that they are the most environmental, ethical and humanitarian and inclusive. It’s Apple who are always claiming the moral high ground

And I believe Apple in that I feel they are legitimately making efforts in cleaning up their supply chain. Thing is - this sort of thing is a process. It’s not a binary “you are either using slave labour or you are not” kind of situation.

Apple is probably in a far better position today than they were a decade ago. If we want to go to extremes, it’s never going to be possible to have a 100% clean supply chain that’s free of controversy or abuse, especially not at the scale at which Apple operates. If you are going to tar everyone with the same brush, then why would any company bother?

 

[msp3]

Whose going to tell Bernie?

I'm sure he'll say something about Chairman Mao's not all that bad did many admirable things

 

[sakurarain]

Made in China WITHOUT full human right: $1000 per iPhone ***
‘Made in USA WITH full human right: $1600 per iPhone ***

Most of us are quite clear with the answer.

 

[CarlJ]

Made in China WITHOUT full human right: $1000 per iPhone ***
Made in USA WITH full human right: $1600 per iPhone ***

Actual cost for made in the USA, at this point, would likely be higher than that, because of the law of supply and demand - price going up because demand would outstrip what a US factory could supply. Apple couldn't produce them here in the same quantities, because China can provide several hundred thousand skilled workers (skilled enough to do this work - yes, it's not rocket science, but it does take some skill) who can all work in a concentrated area in a complex of factories. It would take a surprisingly long time to spin that up in the US. Yes, you can find a lot of people who might say they're willing to take those factory jobs, but you find them spread all over the country. For it to match what China has to offer, you need to uproot all those potential workers and concentrate them in one area - a county or two in one state - and then build the enormous factories there. (And it's not just building the equivalent of Foxconn, but also all the smaller factories that manufacture subassemblies that feed into Foxconn - components of displays and batteries and lenses and camera sensors and circuit boards and connectors and gaskets and so on.)

I'm not thrilled with having everything manufactured in China. I'd like to see a lot more manufacturing done here (be able to trade with other countries because we want to, not because we have to). But getting the jobs back here takes a lot more than just wanting them and having X number of people wanting to do those jobs.

I suspect it's entirely possible that Apple will eventually move a bunch of manufacturing here, but in the form of very highly automated factories. Robots doing the work, people monitoring the robots. Likely in a wave of setting up smaller automated factories in many countries around the globe - would cut down on shipping and tariff hassles, and make them more resilient when faced with problems in one area (like they're currently seeing in China). Once they come up with working designs for highly automated factories, they can replicate (no, not Star Trek style) those factories around the globe.

 

[tallscot]

We are ALL complicit here. Even if I didn’t own any Apple products my health depends on medicine manufactured only in China. I don’t like being in that position at all but this is where our own system fails us. Our stock market thirsts for companies to push more and more growth. Jobs are sacrificed to this goal. Long term health and stability of companies are sacrificed to this goal. We kind of lost our way in the “Greed is Good” era.

Hmmm, which presidential candidate ran on this very issue. Oh yeah, Trump. Clinton/Bush/Obama killed the middle class in the USA for corporate profits. China has been stealing our intellectual property, manipulating their currency to gain trade advantage, putting tariffs on our products while getting free trade into the USA. The trade deficit is hundreds of billions.

Trump is the first guy to fight back. Hate the man’s personality, hate the person, but the policies on this are spot on.
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Made in China WITHOUT full human right: $1000 per iPhone ***
‘Made in USA WITH full human right: $1600 per iPhone ***

Most of us are quite clear with the answer.

No, Apple’s sky high profit margin would necessarily go down because the market dictates the price. Just look at the failure of the Apple smart speaker.
[automerge]1583211763[/automerge]

Actual cost for made in the USA, at this point, would likely be higher than that, because of the law of supply and demand - price going up because demand would outstrip what a US factory could supply. Apple couldn't produce them here in the same quantities, because China can provide several hundred thousand skilled workers (skilled enough to do this work - yes, it's not rocket science, but it does take some skill) who can all work in a concentrated area in a complex of factories. It would take a surprisingly long time to spin that up in the US. Yes, you can find a lot of people who might say they're willing to take those factory jobs, but you find them spread all over the country. For it to match what China has to offer, you need to uproot all those potential workers and concentrate them in one area - a county or two in one state - and then build the enormous factories there. (And it's not just building the equivalent of Foxconn, but also all the smaller factories that manufacture subassemblies that feed into Foxconn - components of displays and batteries and lenses and camera sensors and circuit boards and connectors and gaskets and so on.)

I'm not thrilled with having everything manufactured in China. I'd like to see a lot more manufacturing done here (be able to trade with other countries because we want to, not because we have to). But getting the jobs back here takes a lot more than just wanting them and having X number of people wanting to do those jobs.

I suspect it's entirely possible that Apple will eventually move a bunch of manufacturing here, but in the form of very highly automated factories. Robots doing the work, people monitoring the robots. Likely in a wave of setting up smaller automated factories in many countries around the globe - would cut down on shipping and tariff hassles, and make them more resilient when faced with problems in one area (like they're currently seeing in China). Once they come up with working designs for highly automated factories, they can replicate (no, not Star Trek style) those factories around the globe.

Foxconn is opening a plant in Wisconsin this year. It was initially going to build large LCD panels, but the supply of those is throw the roof, prices way down, so it’s going to build smaller panels for medical/military I guess.

 

[CarlJ]

Foxconn is opening a plant in Wisconsin this year.

They've been "going to open" a plant there for quite a long time. I'll believe it when it's fully equipped with employees and machines, and producing things.

 

[simonmet]

I believe Apple does that. The problems cited in the report (under "Apple") are either suppliers to suppliers, or factories other than ones making Apple products that happen to be owned by an Apple supplier. How far back , or to the side, does Apple's responsibility go?

This is exactly why Apple and others use manufacturers with supply chains that are difficult to trace in a country with lax human rights and environmental protections and even less transparency. It's not just cheap labour they're exploiting, it's the whole system.

 

[Expos of 1969]

Hmmm, which presidential candidate ran on this very issue. Oh yeah, Trump. Clinton/Bush/Obama killed the middle class in the USA for corporate profits. China has been stealing our intellectual property, manipulating their currency to gain trade advantage, putting tariffs on our products while getting free trade into the USA. The trade deficit is hundreds of billions.

Trump is the first guy to fight back. Hate the man’s personality, hate the person, but the policies on this are spot on.
[automerge]1583211246[/automerge]


No, Apple’s sky high profit margin would necessarily go down because the market dictates the price. Just look at the failure of the Apple smart speaker.
[automerge]1583211763[/automerge]


Foxconn is opening a plant in Wisconsin this year. It was initially going to build large LCD panels, but the supply of those is throw the roof, prices way down, so it’s going to build smaller panels for medical/military I guess.

Look more deeply into that story. Foxconn has jerked the state govt around tremendously. Of course, some government officials were fools to take the bait.