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shawnce said:
Just look at the darn developer kit system. It is a simple Intel mother board, it is basically an Intel's designed and built mother board thrown into a existing PM G5 case (nothing fits well, etc.). Apple spent little to no money on getting this thing out to developers. It simply exists to get software level developers going on an x86 system.

Sorry you are way off in your statement...

Right. Of course it means nothing that Steve Jobs himself said OSX has been leading a double life for the past 5 years on the WWDC. I really wonder what hardware OSX-x86 has been running on these 5 last years, if its like you claim they threw something together in a month or something. Get real, they have had years - litteraly - preparing for this.

I agree on one thing though - neither you or I know for sure. But my argument is about 10 times more beliveable than yours. Seriously.
 
Loke said:
1. Claiming that the developer Macs are only developer Macs, and that they do not reflect what the released Intel Macs would be like, is a completely absurd claim. Apple does not spend thousands of dollars employing developer boxes which does not at least have some relation to the final product.
Not at all true.

Apple is using generic off-the-shelf Intel boards for the developer boxes. They did not design those systems.

Apple has already told developers to not expect any aspect of the hardware to be the same when the systems go into production. They explicitly referred to ROM-based software, disk partitions, and Gestalt information. The previews are for the purpose of software development, not production previews.
Loke said:
2. You have to realize that the Macintosh plattform essentially is a closed source plattform. Finding out what a closed source plattform with integrated TCPA support is capable of, is likely very difficult unless experiencing the lock-out yourself - in which case it is too late (obviously).
But the chip does nothing that can't already be implemented in software. If you're seriously worried about this, then you should be just as worried about the Mac you have now. After all, you didn't design any of the chips, you didn't write any of the ROM code or any of the OS code either.
Loke said:
3. The TPM chip in question is protected with a RSA encryption key pair, and is virtually unhackable unless someone somewhere made a flaw in the actual design around the TPM chip. You could essentially spend thousands of years trying to brute force the RSA key pair with all the computing power in the world, and still not succeed. This is serious ****.
But the chip still won't do anything without OS support. And every one of its features can be implemented in software.

The presence of this chip will not automatically turn a benign piece of equipment into Big Brother. Any OS that wants to exercise the level of control you're worried about can do so with or without any encryption chip on the motherboard.
Loke said:
4. The worst aspect of this turn of events, by far IMO, is the possibility for 3rd party developers using the TPM module. It doesnt matter if Apple plays nicely - others can still utilize it for extended control.
Only if Apple provides user-level APIs for it.

And even then, there's nothing stopping third-party developers from implementing all the DRM they want right now. iTunes does it very well, and it doesn't use any chip.
Loke said:
5. Expect Dell, Gateway, IBM and others to follow this move shortly, most likely with the introduction of MS Windows Vista. In fact, several vendors have already been shipping TPM chips in their systems for some time, especially laptops.
And yet you're not seeing everybody bowing and slaving to Microsoft. People aren't being blocked from installing anything (unless their own corporate IT staff has installed software to prevent this.)

These chips in laptops are being used by the ROM boot code to encrypt hard drives and protect the boot sequence. All of which have previously been implemented in software. The chip provides nothing new. It simply makes pre-existing technology work a bit faster.
Loke said:
The next version of MS Windows Vista will support the TCPA plattform to full extent.
Could you provide a source for this? MS has been promising this since Windows 2000, but it's still not here.
Loke said:
Finally, for you who wonder how a TCPA plattform is able to control your environment, this post was published on www.slashdot.org earlier this week by (apparantly) someone experienced with the plattform. Note, this is worst case scenario from a users POV - but entirely possible today and not sci-fi:
And it is possible without any special chips. And every vendor knows that if they build a system with that much restriction, nobody will buy it.

Any company that decides to take total control of a customer's computer will find itself out of business in very short order.
 
Loke said:
Right. Of course it means nothing that Steve Jobs himself said OSX has been leading a double life for the past 5 years on the WWDC. I really wonder what hardware OSX-x86 has been running on these 5 last years, if its like you claim they threw something together in a month or something. Get real, they have had years - litteraly - preparing for this.

He was talking about Mac OS X not Mac hardware using Intel. Mac OS X (and Darwin) has been running on PPC and X86 (possibly others) for 5 years (longer if you count back into NeXT/OpenStep days).

Has Apple been playing with making hardware based on Intel chips, more then likely a few times in the last couple of years. Is the dev kit the final product HELL NO, like I said just look at the thing. For one it doesn't have a LOT of things that make a Mac a Mac.

So please do get real.
 
robertseadog said:
Do you like your mac to register all you do and say into a database?
Know what's funny? It already does!


Well, okay, it's an "index" rather than a database, and it most likely doesn't get sent to Apple, but it could be. QUICK TURN OFF SPOTLIGHT NOW!!! :eek:





:D
 
siliconjones said:
No the chip is there because the OS is going to look for it to make sure the box is Apples.
Or it's there because it was a part of the generic Intel motherboard that Apple bought for the developer systems.
siliconjones said:
It will most definitely be there.
What is your source for making such a solid claim? The fact that a chip exists on a pre-release board that Apple didn't design means nothing.
siliconjones said:
As it needs to be to keep OS X x86 off of ROTM PCs.
Not at all true. There are plenty of other ways to do this.
siliconjones said:
But there is nothing stopping Apple or third parties from using it for evil.
No more than the "evil" they can perform right now, without it.
 
Loke said:
Right. Of course it means nothing that Steve Jobs himself said OSX has been leading a double life for the past 5 years on the WWDC. I really wonder what hardware OSX-x86 has been running on these 5 last years, if its like you claim they threw something together in a month or something. Get real, they have had years - litteraly - preparing for this.
Do you think they were developing and upgrading a custom hardware platform for that entire five years?

The OS X-Intel development work was being done on generic PC's. As such, the boards have whatever features the PC motherboards du jour have installed.

The production models will be the first ones where Apple actually designs the Intel hardware platform.
 
shamino said:
Not quite. See this story for the truth.

I've already read that story and it was my prime source of information.

Franklin had to copy the ROM to copy the software. Apple didn't put DRM into the software but the ROM - much like using the TPM chip instead of DRMing the OS in software.

You see, I may not have touched every little single detail - but I'm still correct nonetheless. In that Apple has sought hardware means to keep their systems theirs.
 
shamino said:
But the chip does nothing that can't already be implemented in software.

You seemed to repeat this alot, so let me get your oppinion on this. Not that I disagree, because it most certainly can be implemented in software, but you have to see the bigger picture here IMO.

Why do members of the TCG invest millions of dollars developing such technology, only to make it perhaps slightly easier and faster as you claim, if it can already be implemented in software?

The time aspect we are dealing with are probably 10 - 15 years and this is the first small step towards something bigger.
 
shamino said:
Or it's there because it was a part of the generic Intel motherboard that Apple bought for the developer systems.
What is your source for making such a solid claim? The fact that a chip exists on a pre-release board that Apple didn't design means nothing.

The hackers from OSx86 report that the Rosetta binary constantly perform function calls to the Infinion TPM chip when running certain parts of the GUI, ergo the chip was ordered specifically by Apple, or the team developing Rosetta for Apple, to be present.
 
shamino said:
The fact that a chip exists on a pre-release board that Apple didn't design means nothing.

And the fact that Apple needs the functionality that this chip (whether or not it can be done via software) provides and it happens to be on the motherboard of the machines that developers are receiving from Apple means nothing? C'mon pull your head out of the sand.
 
As long as it doesn't prevent me from installing Linux, I honestly don't care. This is a closed source, proprietary OS. If I learn that it's doing shady ****, I'll move back to Linux in half a heartbeat. If it accelerates SSH/iTunes/whatever, groovy. If it halts piracy, then I'll use open source equivalents (assuming Apple releases their excellent X11 on x86). If it keeps me from watching one of my damned DVDs, then I'll hope VLC will still work. If it does anything so shady that I honestly feel that my privacy is compromised, it'll be a very smooth and light-speed transition back to Linux.
 
kalisphoenix said:
This is a closed source, proprietary OS. If I learn that it's doing shady ****, I'll move back to Linux in half a heartbeat.

Most users think like you do, but the likely way you will discover this is when experiencing a lock-out from your files. Now, how exactly do you plan on moving your locked-out files back to GNU/Linux?

The whole idea behind the TCPA plattform is being able to perform lock-outs, wether its for good or bad. Be very afraid.
 
siliconjones said:
If I buy a machine I want to be able to do what I want with it. Free will. Whether we will for good or for bad should be up to us entirely. If you produce a machine that takes away that free will, don't expect me to buy it. I think everyone should feel this way. If you don't you must be one of THOSE people. :D

That's kind of like saying "If I buy a gun, I want to be able to do what I want with it, whether I kill someone or use it only for defense or target practice is up to me entirely."

I figure, as long as Apple keeps the user's rights open enough to be able to do a decent amount with the computer, it won't be a problem.

Oh, by the way... VMWare guy. That would be Windows loaded on a Intel dev box with VMWare on it. It's not anything special like someone actually getting the MacOS to run off of the dev box.
 
Mechcozmo said:
Yeah... if I am monitoring packets and I capture both halves of the key that have been sent from person A to person B and from person B to person A, doesn't that mean I can decrypt their data? Because I'd have both halves of the key?

Nope. If you look through my explanation, you'll see that at no point is the private key ever transmitted (hence private key). The only person who has the private key is the one who generated the key pair, and thus is the only one able to decrypt.
 
Loke said:
Most users think like you do, but the likely way you will discover this is when experiencing a lock-out from your files. Now, how exactly do you plan on moving your locked-out files back to GNU/Linux?

The whole idea behind the TCPA plattform is being able to perform lock-outs, wether its for good or bad. Be very afraid.

The whole point behind Apple controlling the hardware and software is to LOCK your experience. Apple's not going to lock your files unless the RIAA or the MPAA forces them to.

Apple COULD make it so that their current PPC machines wouldn't boot Linux. Apple COULD make 3rd party mice not work out of the box with OSX and force you to buy the Mighty Mouse for multibuttons. Apple COULD request serial numbers for their OS and require activation.

Guess what? They don't do those things.
 
Loke said:
Most users think like you do, but the likely way you will discover this is when experiencing a lock-out from your files. Now, how exactly do you plan on moving your locked-out files back to GNU/Linux?

The whole idea behind the TCPA plattform is being able to perform lock-outs, wether its for good or bad. Be very afraid.

Then I'll start a website and collect angry Apple-users and go on a rampage that will culminate in the brutal torture of every Apple employee we can lay our vengeful grubby hands on. This just might be my calling.

I don't anticipate this problem, though -- I do all of my work on a damn wiki, fer chrissakes.

For that matter, I figure I'll learn about this through the experiences of angry Mac users as posted on macrumors.com ;)
 
longofest said:
That's kind of like saying "If I buy a gun, I want to be able to do what I want with it, whether I kill someone or use it only for defense or target practice is up to me entirely."

I figure, as long as Apple keeps the user's rights open enough to be able to do a decent amount with the computer, it won't be a problem.

Oh, by the way... VMWare guy. That would be Windows loaded on a Intel dev box with VMWare on it. It's not anything special like someone actually getting the MacOS to run off of the dev box.

No, no its not. Its a lot like saying

Siliconjones said:
"If I buy a machine I want to be able to do what I want with it. Free will. Whether we will for good or for bad should be up to us entirely. If you produce a machine that takes away that free will, don't expect me to buy it. I think everyone should feel this way. If you don't you must be one of THOSE people.

I'm not saying I want to hack into the White Sands Missile Command and launch a missile strike against Elliot City, MD (I don't :D ) I'm saying I want to able to Rip the CDs and DVD's I've purchased with the computer I've purchased. Big difference.

MODS: Sorry for quoting myself i had to.
 
EGT said:
As long as this doesn't interfere with legitimate computer use (how would it?) I can't see how this would be a bad thing.

When you buy an application, movie, ebook or tune and the vendor locks that item down to your machine it can be a very bad thing. Imagine that your machine ceases to function and you want to transfer your data and applications to a new machine from your backups. Or heaven forbid you simply want to upgrade and transfer your data to your new speedy machine.

Sure, they'll tell you they have autherization servers so you can transfer your data and applications and re-authorize them on the come computer. BUT, don't count on that working seamlessly nor should you count on them always being available. Consider internet failures, lack of ISP, server problems on their end and worst of all, failure of the company. You know, companies do go under...

Now imagine losing your own personal data to this. Consider that some vendors may not like you doing sidegrades to other vendor's software. They can use this with proprietary formats to lock your data to their software.

This also enables pay-per-use software, music, videos, etc. Hollywood, the music industry and even the software industry have been trying to implement this for years. Go study the history of these industries and realize they want to dip their hand into your pocket every time you use their product. No more buying music and being able to listen to it over and over with no incremental cost. No more buying programs and being able to use them without paying the meter every time you use them. Companies are pushing hard for subscription model revenues and this is one more way they'll rip you off.

"Trusted Computing", locks and all this is a really bad idea that can bite you down the road. These are but some of the more innocent gotcha's you will face.
 
Loke said:
You seemed to repeat this alot, so let me get your oppinion on this. Not that I disagree, because it most certainly can be implemented in software, but you have to see the bigger picture here IMO.

Why do members of the TCG invest millions of dollars developing such technology, only to make it perhaps slightly easier and faster as you claim, if it can already be implemented in software?
Ultimately, when you boil away all the hype. these chips are simply encryption coprocessors. As others have said, they don't include PKI systems, so they rely entirely on keys from other sources, like firmware and OS code. And they don't know a thing about operating systems, file systems or applications. And they can't, if they're going to be made general-purpose enough to be useful.

They are necessary if you want to do things like encrypt an entire hard drive, because software systems would slow the system down a lot. They are also extremely useful if you want to encrypt the boot-code from the hard drive (since this kind of encryption is more complicated than most people want to code into a BIOS chip.)

They come in handy (but are still not necessary) if you want to DRM-wrap the ROM code (to prevent someone from installing a hacked flash image) or encrypt passwords stored in PRAM.

For everything else, they're for performance reasons and not much else. Application-level DRM will always require application support, because no chip is going to understand your file formats, or even the layout of your disk partition.

OS-level support for DRM allows application developers to do it more easily, to eliminate bugs (or at least ensure that any bugs are isolated to the OS, where they are more likely to get patched.)

Hardware support for OS-level encryption speeds things up. This isn't so important when you're decrypting a music file with a 128K bitrate, but it will take a huge load off of the CPU if you're decrypting an HD DVD file that has bitrates in the tens of Mbps.
Loke said:
The time aspect we are dealing with are probably 10 - 15 years and this is the first small step towards something bigger.
The "something bigger" is already here. You already have corporations that lock-down their PCs to keep unauthorized programs out. A hardware security chip speeds things up but doesn't create any new abilities.

If you're worried about a manufacturer locking users out of their own computers, that's just silly. They want to sell computers. To do that, their customers have to be able to run whatever they buy on them. Even with Microsoft's monopoly, do you think Dell, HP and Sony would sell many PCs if customers were prohibited from running third-party programs?

If you're worried about government lockdowns, that is going to require legislation, not a chip. If they would ever want to do this, they could do it right now. But it will still require massive OS-level support, which means it could not happen in secret. There's no way governments are going to dictate stuff like this to Microsoft, Apple, Sun, and the rest without the entire world finding out.

It would also kill the nation's economy, since such a move would cause foreign governments to ban the import of US hardware and software.

As I've said, the chip is no big deal - it doesn't give anyone any new abilities. It just makes existing security code run faster. And all the nightmare scenarios, while technically possible, are not going to happen, because the effects would destroy the entire industry. Even the most fascist government officials don't want to collapse the world's economy.
 
Loke said:
The hackers from OSx86 report that the Rosetta binary constantly perform function calls to the Infinion TPM chip when running certain parts of the GUI, ergo the chip was ordered specifically by Apple, or the team developing Rosetta for Apple, to be present.
Or it was mandated by Transitive to keep people from pirating their tech. Depending on what Apple has implemented, it may be easy to strip this code from the OS and use it on other platforms for other purposes.

I don't know about you, but to me this seems like a perfectly legitimate use.

And it may simply be there to keep people from distributing this beta code all over the internet, since NDA's have proven themselves useless to prevent Tiger from being pirated.

Extrapolating this to "every Mac sold will have one" and "you won't be able to run what you want on your computer" is speculation and paranoia.
 
shamino said:
As I've said, the chip is no big deal - it doesn't give anyone any new abilities. It just makes existing security code run faster. And all the nightmare scenarios, while technically possible, are not going to happen, because the effects would destroy the entire industry. Even the most fascist government officials don't want to collapse the world's economy.

I think tin foil blocks common sense... :D
 
Loke said:
Most users think like you do, but the likely way you will discover this is when experiencing a lock-out from your files. Now, how exactly do you plan on moving your locked-out files back to GNU/Linux?

The whole idea behind the TCPA plattform is being able to perform lock-outs, wether its for good or bad. Be very afraid.
And who is going to do this?

Apple? Microsoft? Some secret government agency?

The reason for TCPA is so a corporation can control the machines they bought and paid for. So they can cut off an employee after his job is terminated, or to disable a laptop that may have been stolen.
 
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