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You are wrong. If ExpressHD can build and sell at a profit this kind of PC for $1,400, due to economies of scale, Apple could sell one for say $1,600-1,800 and make a killing. Enough to pay for all the software development/hardware integration.

There is plenty of evidence of Apple's greed and stupidity in its history. Choosing to offer a very narrow product line is stupid in my opinion. Apple could offer non-Xeon lower end towers for the bulk of such market.

Again, when not enough Mac Pros sell, Apple will rationalize it by saying that market is dying. Delusional greed is what they are affected with.

I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head. I think at least part of the faulty thinking they have is due to having no real competition for the hardware end of things. Yeah, if you want to compare Windows to OS X there is a comparison, but that's clearly NOT an Apples to Apples comparison (pun intended). If you want a "Mac" you're SOL. It's either an Apple or hack city. Psystar meant to at least do the work for you, but you see how Apple is treating that. Instead of competing, they want to sue to protect their monopoly. Instead of most Mac people recognizing how bad it is for them in terms of choice and quality, they'd rather defend Apple's right to overcharge everyone.

I can only figure this is do to the fact that most people tend to not think about their situation, but imagine they'd do the same if they were in Apple's position (most people ARE greedy, sad to say). But in terms of Capitalism (which isn't my favorite thing as it breeds greed generally speaking), competition is good period and Apple has none unless you include consideration of changing operating systems. If you have thousands of dollars of software invested, you aren't likely to do that and Apple knows it. Whereas they take advantage of the opposite situation. They now make it EASY for a PC user (who is more likely than not to have NOT purchased his software, statistically speaking regardless) because they "allow" (big of them eh) you to put Windows on their machine so you do not have to give up your Windows software. Of course, if they allowed virtualization of OS X in Windows, the same could be true there as well. They are very one-sided in this issue and of course it's because it benefits them (greed) to do so. By fair and open trade standards, it's not 'fair' at all, of course, but people justify it because Macs are a small overall market share of operating systems even though they are a rather large share of overall hardware sales from a single vendor. Most Mac users refuse to see this, though because they are blinded by their own greed (they'd do it too if they could get away with it) and they tell themselves that Apple "owns" their OS so they can put any restrictions on it they want, even if that means invading your personal privacy and thus your 4th Amendment guaranteed Constitutional rights.
 
Come on Skil, you're usually better with facts

Apple got the Core 2 Xeons early, too.

Actually, Apple was rather slow with the original Mac Pro Xeon - Intel announced Woodcrest at the end of June 2006, Apple introduced the Mac Pro on 7 August 2006 at WWDC.

Apple was the only big manufacturer to use the 3.0 GHz 150watt Xeon quad core - everyone else waited for the 120 watt 3.0GHz parts - so Apple looked "first" with 3.0 GHz quad core Xeon, using a CPU nobody else wanted. Meanwhile, everyone else was selling octo-core workstations at slightly slower speeds for months.


Apple challenged Intel to shrink the physical size (not manufacturing process) of a processor while keeping the power the same. They took up the challenge and the MacBook Air was born.

The SFF version of the Core 2 was already on Intel's roadmap - the only challenge was putting the old 65nm part on a carrier that was planned for 45nm CPUs. Intel had shopped around the idea of the 65nm SFF, but only Apple was interested.
 
I hope you are at least a senior economic manager of a "A" ranked corporation. Because if you're not, how can you say those numbers with such arrogance like you know what you're talking about? You work at apple? You have their market polls? You did research on apple customers need worldwide? And if you're not, like everyone else here, you just don't know what you're talking about.

A degree in economics is not required to draw fundamental conclusions. Your argument would have been valid a few years ago when Apple developed and built its own motherboards and co-developed the PowerPC chip with IBM and Motorola. Apple is putting less and less $ into (Mac) R&D and Design.

The motherboards are basically Intel or nVidia developed, furthermore, in the PPC days Apple would slowly drop prices on the hardware after 6 months and refresh it in 6-9 months maximum. Now they refresh once every 12-18 months without dropping a single $. Furthermore, their product Design cycle has been extended to 4+ years. The monitors are only now being refreshed after 4 years, the PowerMac/MacPro case is 5+ years old.

Apple used to offer a compelling reasons to pay a premium for their products. Now all we get (I'm talking Macintosh) are non-competitive products for a huge premium. Where is external SATA connectivity? Where is HDMI connectivity? Where is Blu-Ray? Where are the vast upgrade options for the MacPro? Apple has even managed to choke its aftermarket.

Yes, the MacPro is in some ways a high end workstation. I DON"T NEED A WORK STATION AT WORKSTATION PRICES! Chances are you don't either. Chances are the software you use can not take advantage of the latest Xeon processors. What MOST people need/want are great tools at competitive prices to do their work. Yes, I would pay a REASONABLE premium for a Mac. However, Apple's current hardware products offer no compelling reason to pay DOUBLE for a computer that, as MacIntouch demonstrated, offers equal performance to a standard PC. By the way, ExpressHD has dropped the price to $1,250.

Ultimately, I do not need a degree in economics to know what I need to do my work and what I think is reasonable to pay for it. Ultimately, I do not read Mac only publications, I can therefore asses the market value of a computer to fit my needs. I can therefore tell you in no uncertain terms that Apple's current offerings are designed to manipulate its customers and avoid competition at all costs. Apple, especially in this economy, is not offering a product with the specifications and price to fit my needs and those of a large portion of the market.

Before you dismiss me by saying "switch to Windows", I want you to know I have been using and buying Macs and related software for 19 years and have a huge amount of $ invested. Believe me I know Apple. These days they are placing a huge bet on their "cool" factor, I'm getting too old to give a damn about having a cool tower collecting dust under my desk. I am trying to make a living, I need the right tools at the right price to do so. I'll be damn if Apple is going to tell me what I need.
 
A degree in economics is not required to draw fundamental conclusions. Your argument would have been valid a few years ago when Apple developed and built its own motherboards and co-developed the PowerPC chip with IBM and Motorola. Apple is putting less and less $ into (Mac) R&D and Design.

The motherboards are basically Intel or nVidia developed, furthermore, in the PPC days Apple would slowly drop prices on the hardware after 6 months and refresh it in 6-9 months maximum. Now they refresh once every 12-18 months without dropping a single $. Furthermore, their product Design cycle has been extended to 4+ years. The monitors are only now being refreshed after 4 years, the PowerMac/MacPro case is 5+ years old.

Apple used to offer a compelling reasons to pay a premium for their products. Now all we get (I'm talking Macintosh) are non-competitive products for a huge premium. Where is external SATA connectivity? Where is HDMI connectivity? Where is Blu-Ray? Where are the vast upgrade options for the MacPro? Apple has even managed to choke its aftermarket.

Yes, the MacPro is in some ways a high end workstation. I DON"T NEED A WORK STATION AT WORKSTATION PRICES! Chances are you don't either. Chances are the software you use can not take advantage of the latest Xeon processors. What MOST people need/want are great tools at competitive prices to do their work. Yes, I would pay a REASONABLE premium for a Mac. However, Apple's current hardware products offer no compelling reason to pay DOUBLE for a computer that, as MacIntouch demonstrated, offers equal performance to a standard PC. By the way, ExpressHD has dropped the price to $1,250.

Ultimately, I do not need a degree in economics to know what I need to do my work and what I think is reasonable to pay for it. Ultimately, I do not read Mac only publications, I can therefore asses the market value of a computer to fit my needs. I can therefore tell you in no uncertain terms that Apple's current offerings are designed to manipulate its customers and avoid competition at all costs. Apple, especially in this economy, is not offering a product with the specifications and price to fit my needs and those of a large portion of the market.

Before you dismiss me by saying "switch to Windows", I want you to know I have been using and buying Macs and related software for 19 years and have a huge amount of $ invested. Believe me I know Apple. These days they are placing a huge bet on their "cool" factor, I'm getting too old to give a damn about having a cool tower collecting dust under my desk. I am trying to make a living, I need the right tools at the right price to do so. I'll be damn if Apple is going to tell me what I need.

Hey, I'd even pay quite a premium for a cutting edge tricked-out BTO Mac Pro that astounded the world by coming standard with Blu-ray the week after Blu-ray won the war. Early last year. Now THAT would have been a real marketing coup. And there are at least a hundred or so thousand video editing Apple pro base who would have done the same. I've had $10,000 plus lying in wait for two years now for what I need and what my clients demand (without having to go to DVD-IT Pro on the Windows side to do it.)

Of course, coming from the iCrap Mattel of the computer world who was more concerned about lying about Steve Job's imminent death than making cutting edge computers and servicing its high-end clientele, it was not meant to be.

Keep that kind of brilliant thinking up, and Apple will be Amiga before you can say GreatEST Depression.

:apple:
 
yep...I'm gonna do the same thing. For around $1700 I can build a screamin' machine...significantly better than the 2.66 quad.

It's damn true.
In considering that this is plainly impossible just a few days ago with the 2008 model, we know how the value of 2009 model depreciated.
 
c'mon people, don't be so narrow minded

Many people don't need to buy a whole Mac Pro when a Mac Mini will do just fine for them.

Rule of thumb: if you aren't making money from using your Mac you probably don't need a Mac Pro.

Really?

I submit to you that the previous generation Mac Pro is the CHEAPEST desktop that I could buy. It cost $2799, a bit more than double what you would have paid for a similarly spec'd PC. My PCs tend to last about 2.5 years before something goes "boom" -- hard drive, memory, logic board, whatever. I would then spend many hours and many $$ repairing, or, more usually, replacing. After all, it's only $1k to get a new nice computer.

Compare that to the MP used as a desktop. Parts don't fail nearly as often because of their quality, as well as the fit and finish of the machine. I expect that a MP used as a desktop would still be fast five years from now, and tolerably usable as a desktop as much as 7.5-10 years from now.

So for $2799, I save many hours of upgrade/repair time (my time at home is very important! It's why I spend all those hours at work!) and I get a computer that will last 3-4 times as long as a PC desktop that costs $1k per pop. Sounds like I save money and time buying the professional machine to me--does that count as "making money with my mac?"
 
Really?

I submit to you that the previous generation Mac Pro is the CHEAPEST desktop that I could buy. It cost $2799, a bit more than double what you would have paid for a similarly spec'd PC. My PCs tend to last about 2.5 years before something goes "boom" -- hard drive, memory, logic board, whatever. I would then spend many hours and many $$ repairing, or, more usually, replacing. After all, it's only $1k to get a new nice computer.

Compare that to the MP used as a desktop. Parts don't fail nearly as often because of their quality, as well as the fit and finish of the machine. I expect that a MP used as a desktop would still be fast five years from now, and tolerably usable as a desktop as much as 7.5-10 years from now.

So for $2799, I save many hours of upgrade/repair time (my time at home is very important! It's why I spend all those hours at work!) and I get a computer that will last 3-4 times as long as a PC desktop that costs $1k per pop. Sounds like I save money and time buying the professional machine to me--does that count as "making money with my mac?"


Personally, I'd like to know where you get these 3-4 times as long figures and verification of the bits about quality parts versus a PC. Which PC? Which parts? Without anything to back it up, it smacks of hearsay or someone trying to convince themselves they didn't overpay.
 
I have no problem paying 4000 - 4400 dollars for the fastest 8 core MacPro. Even though it only tops out at 2.93 ghz (I expected 3.2 or higher), I hear the Nehalem is much faster. So okay fine.

Then they are announced at over 6000. Dollars. What this is insane. I know it isn't that fast when I start editing avchd with 4 pips, I'm sure it will bog down and crash just like it's predecessors.

And I don't make money with my Mac, just an enthusiast.
So what does that mean? I don't need a MacPro and should settle for an imac with imovie?

I never thought seriously about a hakintosh but I am now. I bet in about three months this will be doable with these nehalem quadcores.
 
Really?

I submit to you that the previous generation Mac Pro is the CHEAPEST desktop that I could buy. It cost $2799, a bit more than double what you would have paid for a similarly spec'd PC. My PCs tend to last about 2.5 years before something goes "boom" -- hard drive, memory, logic board, whatever. I would then spend many hours and many $$ repairing, or, more usually, replacing. After all, it's only $1k to get a new nice computer.

Compare that to the MP used as a desktop. Parts don't fail nearly as often because of their quality, as well as the fit and finish of the machine. I expect that a MP used as a desktop would still be fast five years from now, and tolerably usable as a desktop as much as 7.5-10 years from now.

So for $2799, I save many hours of upgrade/repair time (my time at home is very important! It's why I spend all those hours at work!) and I get a computer that will last 3-4 times as long as a PC desktop that costs $1k per pop. Sounds like I save money and time buying the professional machine to me--does that count as "making money with my mac?"

Assuming you are right and a Mac will last 3-4 times longer than a PC, why would I want to keep using it for that long? The moment you buy a computer it is outdated, after a year the software you use is likely to demand faster hardware, after 2 years you definitely notice the hit.

Honestly, I would prefer to replace my computer every 2 years (and stay up to date) and pay 1/2 Apple's current prices. For what I do I need a lot of processing power (CAD/3D CAD/Photo-realistic Rendering). With Apple it is often the case you get last year's video card technology and questionable components (the first Mac Pros came with a 5400 RPM standard HD), less standard RAM than PC makers and a shorter standard warranty, 1 year vs. 2-3 years for a name brand PC. I fail to see the value in Apple's hardware you talk about.
 
Benchmarks b/t new models

I've been scanning through the forums here and I can't find a comparison between the new quad-core and new eight-core. What kind of performance jump do I get for the $800 upgrade? I have to decide today as I'm getting a replacement unit from Mac from my current Mac Pro.

Thanks,

Clint
 
I've been scanning through the forums here and I can't find a comparison between the new quad-core and new eight-core. What kind of performance jump do I get for the $800 upgrade? I have to decide today as I'm getting a replacement unit from Mac from my current Mac Pro.

Thanks,

Clint

goto https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/667880/

It's only one datapoint.

Note that the quad core is a bit handicapped - max of 8 GiB of RAM, and only 6 GiB at full performance.

If you need more memory, get the octo.
 
I've been scanning through the forums here and I can't find a comparison between the new quad-core and new eight-core. What kind of performance jump do I get for the $800 upgrade? I have to decide today as I'm getting a replacement unit from Mac from my current Mac Pro.

Thanks,

Clint
Is there a chart that tells me exactly which system I have? When reading the "Hardware Overview > Model Identifier", I see "MacPro2,1".
We have a few MacPro's here and Im too lazy to do the research :(
Is there a chart that breaks this down for lazy users like me :)
 
Is there a chart that tells me exactly which system I have? When reading the "Hardware Overview > Model Identifier", I see "MacPro2,1".
We have a few MacPro's here and Im too lazy to do the research :(
Is there a chart that breaks this down for lazy users like me :)

It's easiest just to go to About This Mac in the Apple Menu and look at the processor number and speeds. That's the best identifier for a system model.

jW
 
Is there a chart that tells me exactly which system I have? When reading the "Hardware Overview > Model Identifier", I see "MacPro2,1".
We have a few MacPro's here and Im too lazy to do the research :(
Is there a chart that breaks this down for lazy users like me :)

2,1 were the April 2007 Mac Pros with two quad core 3GHz processors.

1,1 were the original 2006, 3,1 2008 and 4,1 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Pro
 
Really?

I submit to you that the previous generation Mac Pro is the CHEAPEST desktop that I could buy. It cost $2799, a bit more than double what you would have paid for a similarly spec'd PC. My PCs tend to last about 2.5 years before something goes "boom" -- hard drive, memory, logic board, whatever. I would then spend many hours and many $$ repairing, or, more usually, replacing. After all, it's only $1k to get a new nice computer.

Compare that to the MP used as a desktop. Parts don't fail nearly as often because of their quality, as well as the fit and finish of the machine. I expect that a MP used as a desktop would still be fast five years from now, and tolerably usable as a desktop as much as 7.5-10 years from now.

So for $2799, I save many hours of upgrade/repair time (my time at home is very important! It's why I spend all those hours at work!) and I get a computer that will last 3-4 times as long as a PC desktop that costs $1k per pop. Sounds like I save money and time buying the professional machine to me--does that count as "making money with my mac?"

Just came out:

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/03/24/macs.slip.in.reliability/
 
The moment you buy a computer it is outdated, after a year the software you use is likely to demand faster hardware, after 2 years you definitely notice the hit.
I have been reading through some of your rantings here, and must say I found them quite amusing. But someone clearly has to put you into place, because most of it is utter crap.

My Mac Pro is now over 3 years old, and it has never been faster than today - simply because Mac OS X has matured in the same period, utilizing more cores.
 
I have been reading through some of your rantings here, and must say I found them quite amusing. But someone clearly has to put you into place, because most of it is utter crap.

My Mac Pro is now over 3 years old, and it has never been faster than today - simply because Mac OS X has matured in the same period, utilizing more cores.

Then why is everybody screaming for a new Mac Pro? I don't get it :confused:
 
Then why is everybody screaming for a new Mac Pro? I don't get it :confused:

Because some people are never satisfied. It can always be faster and smaller and and and... Marketers LOVE people like that, and so do the banks because they can charge them interest and keep them enslaved. (Of course, I must admit I have am 8-way Mac Pro, and LOVE it!:eek: But aside from that one, haven't purchased a new Mac in about three years)
 
Then why is everybody screaming for a new Mac Pro? I don't get it :confused:

The processors and the graphics cards in the Mac Pro have all been replaced by ones offering more performance. Because Apple don't pre-announce anything and because people don't wont to buy something when they could get 10-50% more power a week later and improve the resale value, and maybe get new features.
 
I have been reading through some of your rantings here, and must say I found them quite amusing. But someone clearly has to put you into place, because most of it is utter crap.

My Mac Pro is now over 3 years old, and it has never been faster than today - simply because Mac OS X has matured in the same period, utilizing more cores.

Why the hell are you replying to a post from over a year ago? stop grave digging!
 
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