Apple Lambasts Australian Banks Over Call For iPhone NFC Access

[tmiw]

Good pickup, and I agree that there is an element of faith. To my earlier point, until NFC is opened up by Apple, nobody knows what the system, business model, security, fees etc. would look like.

I want to make one point in response to the paragraph you quoted. In the application, they are talking about 'pass-through' of the fees charged by Apple to the bank, to be passed on to the customer if they use ApplePay. My earlier point was that I don't believe this would be an arbitrary fee (i.e. money grab) charged directly by the banks if the customer uses ApplePay.

Imagine a scenario where Apple actually opened up the NFC chip, and ApplePay was offered alongside a banks payment app. The user would have the choice to use either one, and their choice would be formed based on factors such as convenience, security, fees etc. A user may choose to happily pay the fee by Apple (or the bank) if they thought it was worthwhile using ApplePay, and could also choose to use a bank payment app if they did not want to incur any fees (or other reasons).

I think having the choice is important, and Apple is restricting this choice by restricting the hardware.

The thing is that the banks have a vested interest in ensuring that people use their apps. To them, they'd rather get people using, say, the ANZ Easy Pay app (or whatever it's called) over Apple's product because that makes their cards "top of the wallet" so to speak. It's much harder to get people to use your cards over another bank's when your customers are using Apple's solution instead and think of mobile payment as an Apple thing. The easiest way to encourage that is to charge various fees to add that bank's card to Apple Pay and/or charge the couple of cents per transaction or whatever Apple charges them.

Maybe Apple will end up agreeing to 0.00% per transaction just to get the remaining banks on board and avoid that happening. Unlikely, but who knows?

 

[kdarling]

I think you need to educate yourself on how Australian banks operate before making typical biased claims. These banks don't offer a secure platform such as Apple Pay,

If the banks had access to NFC, they could easily write their own app that used TouchId.

in fact, fraud in tap and go payments have skyrocketed year on year,

Actually, no. Contactless fraud makes up less than 2% of all card fraud in Australia, and that percentage has been dropping each year.

That single Victoria Police story from well over a year ago has been proven by industry reps and statistics to be mistaken.

Unless you've missed the specifics on Apple Pay, nobody, not even Apple have data on the token transaction.

It's pretty clear that you know almost nothing about how Apple Pay works.

Apple Pay is no different than any card purchase. The banks get just as much info as they ever did.

That's because the NFC payment part was neither invented nor implemented by Apple. It was done entirely by the credit card schemes and the banks. For contactless payments, "Apple Pay" is just a marketing term for Apple's particular UI app. That's why it's usable anywhere NFC payments can be made. It's not Apple specific because Apple has no part in the card emulation or EMV payment transactions.

What IS unique, is that Apple demands purchase reports and statistics sent back from the banks, information which formerly was proprietary information. (Apple cleverly but truthfully says they don't collect info during a purchase... well, except for location to help figure out which store... but they leave out mentioning the constant reports they require on types of purchases, etc.)

Some banks pay Apple and give them that info in return for Apple continuing to let them do what they've always done. In short, Apple is selling access to its phone buyers to the banks. It's a classic case of we are the product.

 

[MH01]

If the banks had access to NFC, they could easily write their own app that used TouchId.



Actually, no. Contactless fraud makes up less than 2% of all card fraud in Australia, and that percentage has been dropping each year.

That single Victoria Police story from well over a year ago has been proven by industry reps and statistics to be mistaken.



It's pretty clear that you know almost nothing about how Apple Pay works.

Apple Pay is no different than any card purchase. The banks get just as much info as they ever did.

That's because the NFC payment part was neither invented nor implemented by Apple. It was done entirely by the credit card schemes and the banks. For contactless payments, "Apple Pay" is just a marketing term for Apple's particular UI app. That's why it's usable anywhere NFC payments can be made. It's not Apple specific because Apple has no part in the card emulation or EMV payment transactions.

What IS unique, is that Apple demands purchase reports and statistics sent back from the banks, information which formerly was proprietary information. (Apple cleverly but truthfully says they don't collect info during a purchase... well, except for location to help figure out which store... but they leave out mentioning the constant reports they require on types of purchases, etc.)

Some banks pay Apple and give them that info in return for Apple continuing to let them do what they've always done. In short, Apple is selling access to its phone buyers to the banks. It's a classic case of we are the product.

Game set and match.

 

[RedOrchestra]

It's a classic case of we are the product.

Ah, but what's a little data mining for ALL that security Apple is providing it's Apple Pay users, right?

/s

 

[wikiverse]

Nope, I'm disgusted in my bank (Commonwealth) for partaking in these 'fighting' matches with Apple, and they're paying for it by loosing customers to ANZ.

I want Apple Pay, and I don't want the banks accessing the NFC.
They'd use their lame applications, and it wouldn't be tied into the OS like Apple Pay is.

Apple's right. The Aussie Banks are just being greedy themselves.
Get on-board or loose more customers, it seems.

I have a few bank accounts in a few countries, and I can honestly say that the CommBank App is the best banking app in the world. I actually think they would do a far better job than Apple at mobile payments.

 

[Rocketman]

The fees you're talking about are for providing an actual service during a transaction, such as providing the network, transferring funds, providing tokenization services.

Apple's servers do absolutely nothing during a contactless transaction. The CC applets, local acquirer service companies, credit card companies and the banks do it all.

The only reason Apple gets a contactless fee, is because they won't let anyone else register to use the NFC credit card applets in the first place, without paying Apple.

All true. They are bringing hundreds of millions of committed customers to a platform at a cost well below traditional methods like direct mail and TV ads. One value added thing they do bring is an added security layer. You discount that, but should not.

 

[Waughy]

That's good to know. Everyone I've talked to has said the iOS app for ANZ has been awful. Do they also have an Apple Watch app? Quickly glancing at my balance is both useful and addictive.

I use the Grow app, rather than the Go app, and don't mind it. The only thing it doesn't do is show pending transactions, but it shows your available balance which is all I really care about if I use the app. You can do transfers etc as well. If I really need to know about a pending transaction, I just use the website.

There is a watch app, and it offers glance as well.

 

[oldmacs]

Apple's right. The Aussie Banks are just being greedy themselves.

As much as the banks are being greedy, Apple is just as greed and its a bit of hypocritical.

 

[Cole Slaw]

As much as the banks are being greedy, Apple is just as greed and its a bit of hypocritical.

Agreed .
Except many on this forum find it okay if the Apple is greedy but not if other companies look out for themselves first.

 

[iGeek2014]

I've never been to Finland, so I have no experience with the banking industry there. On a side note, Finland is definitely on the bucket list of places to visit.

Australia only received ApplePay recently (and only one Aussie bank and AMEX support it there). I know how you feel about waiting to use the NFC hardware. Only after moving to London have I been able to use the NFC on my iPhones. Once I had it enabled, I was underwhelmed by what ApplePay offers. It's much easier, faster, and just as secure to use existing contactless cards. I also found using the NFC functionality in some of the android based Aussie banking app far better than the Apple implementation (e.g. home screen widgets with card payment).

I was hoping with the iPhone 6 launch that Apple would build an NFC chip into the hardware, so that 3rd party developers could use the chip for payments and other uses. I was so disappointed when I found out that Apple had gimped the NFC chip.

Do you ever arm your iPhone ready for payment (up to 60 seconds before)?

I do... Just as quick as a plastic card. Oh Apple Pay is securer because it doesn't send the actual card number to the retailer/merchant unlike a Chip & PIN card does.

 

[ApeBot]

Australians should be proud that some of their fellows still have enough backbone to stand up to Apple.

I actually see it the other way. The "Big Four" are a cartel holding Australians at ransom every step of the way. They own the entire money system in Australia (in spite of what you may believe in the form of "smaller players", all owned or underwritten by one of the four). Apple is in a field of competition and choice. Banking in Australia is not. Hats off to Apple for standing up against this "Cosa Nostra".

 

[Jupiter.Jones]

Having been involved in payment systems, "access to NFC hardware" shows us what the real issue is - who is skimming the interchange fees. If the bank can route the transaction (through bypassing ApplePay), then their existing channels can continue to skim fees along the way. If Apple route the transaction, the banks may lose some control over who they award these "cash cow" contracts to.

To paraphrase another message in this thread, when a bully is backed into a corner (ie. someone potentially losing their cash cow) they cry, scream and kick... as the banks are doing now.

Is anyone really surprised that a bank (as in someone working with a bank) would mislead their customers, collude for favourable treatment, or try to strong-arm any entity they can't simply ignore? Of course not. It's been a demonstrated culture for all our lives.

What's fun about this, is a joust between a company perceived to care for customers, vs. companies that demonstrate daily their utter distain for 99% of their customers. That's what creates the great debate.

I loved the comment about being proud of our "fellow" Aussies. Could this have possibly come from someone in Australia? Consumer satisfaction ratings show we're largely disgusted by the decisions made by people working for our banks. We can't remember the last time a bank did "the right thing" without being forced to by a court order.

Regardless, it's awesome to see that the marketing efforts by the banks work well enough to motivate people to defend them - the power of advertising "Welcome to AnyBank™ F**k you - We're good!"

 

[Jsameds]

Keeping speakers next to device?

No it's just for the sync, it still connects through Bluetooth.

So - instead of pressing the Bluetooth sync button on the speaker, navigating to BT settings on iPhone, removing the speaker as a previous device (as it was synced to another device earlier that day and if you click on it it doesn't re-sync, annoyingly) and then resyncing - it should just be a matter of waving which ever device I want to sync over the NFC chip in the speaker and done.

So it syncs Bluetooth - with the NFC chip. If only Apple allowed this

 

[oldmacs]

I actually see it the other way. The "Big Four" are a cartel holding Australians at ransom every step of the way. They own the entire money system in Australia (in spite of what you may believe in the form of "smaller players", all owned or underwritten by one of the four). Apple is in a field of competition and choice. Banking in Australia is not. Hats off to Apple for standing up against this "Cosa Nostra".

Apple is only 'standing up' to the banks because they're just as greedy as the 4 banks.

 

[MH01]

Having been involved in payment systems, "access to NFC hardware" shows us what the real issue is - who is skimming the interchange fees. If the bank can route the transaction (through bypassing ApplePay), then their existing channels can continue to skim fees along the way. If Apple route the transaction, the banks may lose some control over who they award these "cash cow" contracts to.

To paraphrase another message in this thread, when a bully is backed into a corner (ie. someone potentially losing their cash cow) they cry, scream and kick... as the banks are doing now.

Is anyone really surprised that a bank (as in someone working with a bank) would mislead their customers, collude for favourable treatment, or try to strong-arm any entity they can't simply ignore? Of course not. It's been a demonstrated culture for all our lives.

What's fun about this, is a joust between a company perceived to care for customers, vs. companies that demonstrate daily their utter distain for 99% of their customers. That's what creates the great debate.

I loved the comment about being proud of our "fellow" Aussies. Could this have possibly come from someone in Australia? Consumer satisfaction ratings show we're largely disgusted by the decisions made by people working for our banks. We can't remember the last time a bank did "the right thing" without being forced to by a court order.

Regardless, it's awesome to see that the marketing efforts by the banks work well enough to motivate people to defend them - the power of advertising "Welcome to AnyBank™ F**k you - We're good!"

I would agree with you 100% if apple was doing this for free though in this situation , Apple has the big bully shoes, it's thier way or the highway.

You are paying for NFC in your iPhone ..... And yet it's constrained to making apple profit and nothing else....hmmm just the banks being greedy at the expanse of the customer ?

This whole debate is over greed, and we don't benefit either way . Just be glad apple is not a bank....cause they charge a high premium for thier "service".....as I can see year on year with my iPhone prices and apple care. Going up...

 

[laudern]

I have a few bank accounts in a few countries, and I can honestly say that the CommBank App is the best banking app in the world. I actually think they would do a far better job than Apple at mobile payments.

100% agreed. The commbank mobile app is awesome. The iPad app, not so much.

 

[makr]

We haven't seen any of that in Canada.
[doublepost=1470841736][/doublepost]


Sorry man, but that's absolute BS ... NO one uses an AMEX card anymore and they're useless for travel in Europe - oh, I take that back ... you can insert them into the room light activator to keep the lights on ... that's about all they're good for in Europe.

I live in the UK and can use my Amex pretty much everywhere.

 

[fischersd]

While with ApplePay the worst criminals will knock you unconscious and get access to your phone via touchid. The worst ones can borrow your finger and go on an unlimited spending spree!!!! Anyway stupid stupid example, cause even if you have Apple Pay, you get knocked out , they just get your wallet and get your cards! Or are you one of those special people that does not carry thier cards with you?

Actually, with Apple Pay, they can't go on a "crazy spending spree" - the initial card prompt (double click on home button while locked) will time out, also, if they unlock your phone with your thumb while you're unconscious, they can't do anything with password or touchID options (in terms of disabling them) without your passcode. Nope, they get nothing.

As to being one of those people that goes out without their cards (especially with some countries governments trialling electronic ID on your phones), isn't that what we're hoping to get to? (and get that inch and a half of bulk out of our back pockets!)

 

[maxsix]

Apple's ego tells them they rule the world.

China, Australia and others hit them with the slap of reality.

 

[MH01]

Actually, with Apple Pay, they can't go on a "crazy spending spree" - the initial card prompt (double click on home button while locked) will time out, also, if they unlock your phone with your thumb while you're unconscious, they can't do anything with password or touchID options (in terms of disabling them) without your passcode. Nope, they get nothing.

As to being one of those people that goes out without their cards (especially with some countries governments trialling electronic ID on your phones), isn't that what we're hoping to get to? (and get that inch and a half of bulk out of our back pockets!)

As one example, with my locked phone, I can unlock or with touchid, and I can also log into PayPal using touchid , once in PayPal I can do some serious damage.

With a £30 limit in nearly every store, I am not leaving home without my cards.

To be frank, I also do not wish to be tied to my phone in such a manner, were basically I am dependent on it, and be tracked electronically for everything.

 

[oldmacs]

100% agreed. The commbank mobile app is awesome. The iPad app, not so much.

I love my commbank app If I could just tap and go with it, I'd be a happy camper. (If I actually had an NFC iPhone lol)

 

[fischersd]

As one example, with my locked phone, I can unlock or with touchid, and I can also log into PayPal using touchid , once in PayPal I can do some serious damage.

With a £30 limit in nearly every store, I am not leaving home without my cards.

To be frank, I also do not wish to be tied to my phone in such a manner, were basically I am dependent on it, and be tracked electronically for everything.

Ok, but that's not going on a spending spree with Apple Pay (heh - now you're saying something different). If you can't secure PayPal better, I'd be tempted to remove it from my phone.

The 30 pound limit is solely how things are working with your merchants and banks. Apple has nothing to do with that. In Canada the merchants dictate the transaction limits (the banks and consumers are putting pressure on them to remove them entirely, as Apple Pay is considerably more secure than tap to pay cards).

"...and be tracked electronically for everything". Hmm. Sorry, I'll leave that one alone. Just too funny.

 

[RedOrchestra]

I live in the UK and can use my Amex pretty much everywhere.

Yeah. I'm sure you do (rolling eyes now.) Is the UK even in Europe anymore?

 

[MH01]

Ok, but that's not going on a spending spree with Apple Pay (heh - now you're saying something different). If you can't secure PayPal better, I'd be tempted to remove it from my phone.

The 30 pound limit is solely how things are working with your merchants and banks. Apple has nothing to do with that. In Canada the merchants dictate the transaction limits (the banks and consumers are putting pressure on them to remove them entirely, as Apple Pay is considerably more secure than tap to pay cards).

"...and be tracked electronically for everything". Hmm. Sorry, I'll leave that one alone. Just too funny.

Wait, you said that using touchid , be it for ApplePay or accessing password protected apps will not get a criminal far . I just demonstrated an example were it can be really damaging

ApplePay via the websites in the future makes the scenario worse .

Though, this is a silly debate, brought up by someone saying what can be stolen when knocked unconscious. Best we don't waste our time on this scenario.

 

[fischersd]

Wait, you said that using touchid , be it for ApplePay or accessing password protected apps will not get a criminal far . I just demonstrated an example were it can be really damaging

ApplePay via the websites in the future makes the scenario worse .

Though, this is a silly debate, brought up by someone saying what can be stolen when knocked unconscious. Best we don't waste our time on this scenario.

Ah...re-read that, yep, point taken on the touchID.

Yep, it is silly...just some light entertainment. Being knocked unconscious, I'm thinking the worse scenario would be waking up in a tub of ice with a drain tube coming out of your side and a note tacked to your forehead to call 911 as you're shy some of your organs. . (well, or not waking up at all).