Apple Lambasts Australian Banks Over Call For iPhone NFC Access

[tmiw]

I doubt they'd charge customers a fee for using ApplePay. You could argue Apple displays the same behaviour by charging banks for the 'privilege' of using the NFC chip.

Fees and business model aside, my point is Apple are restricting hardware functionality to push their own agenda. It goes against the argument of competition in their response to the ACCC.

That is a lot of faith to be putting in entities that basically said flat out in their petition to the government that they'd like to do so. For reference, this is what page 78 of their application has to say:

Collective negotiation also offers the potential for the applicants to obtain a waiver or relaxation of Apple’s demands in relation to restrictions on pass-through. This brings with it the potential for the applicants to set price signals to their customers that reasonably reflect the additional costs of using Apple Pay and to recover those costs from the customers that cause them. This would allow for consumers to make more efficient decisions when deciding between different methods of payment (avoiding over-use of Apple Pay), promote efficient competition between alternative payment methods and avoid the distributional inequities that arise when restrictions on pass-through are applied.
​

(Also, I didn't think it was possible to "overuse" Apple Pay.)

 

[jun180]

Same thing in Finland, with the exception that we don't even have the one approved option pushed onto us. We're just having to let our NFC hardware sit completely unusable while waiting for the day that may never come. Of course it would be nice to have Apple Pay on my phone and watch, but as that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon, I'd really like it if the iOS version of my bank's app supported mobile payments like the Android version does.

Being able to pay with my iPhone would be a nice improvement regardless of whether it's through Apple Pay or my bank's app.

I've never been to Finland, so I have no experience with the banking industry there. On a side note, Finland is definitely on the bucket list of places to visit.

Australia only received ApplePay recently (and only one Aussie bank and AMEX support it there). I know how you feel about waiting to use the NFC hardware. Only after moving to London have I been able to use the NFC on my iPhones. Once I had it enabled, I was underwhelmed by what ApplePay offers. It's much easier, faster, and just as secure to use existing contactless cards. I also found using the NFC functionality in some of the android based Aussie banking app far better than the Apple implementation (e.g. home screen widgets with card payment).

I was hoping with the iPhone 6 launch that Apple would build an NFC chip into the hardware, so that 3rd party developers could use the chip for payments and other uses. I was so disappointed when I found out that Apple had gimped the NFC chip.

 

[kdarling]

US banks have that stuff in their apps too. Well, BofA does anyway.

I do love the fact that I rarely have to go to a bank to deposit a check now, because BofA and Wells Fargo allow doing it from their smartphone apps.

I know about a half dozen people that got Amex cards so they could have Apple Pay as soon as they could.

The effect of that depends on what they buy with it, of course.

In the US, banks were hoping to see a huge jump in spur-of-the-moment purchases because of all the iPhone owners, but it turned out that only about 5% of Americans with compatible iPhones actually use Apple Pay somewhat regularly (and then, mostly for stuff like MacDonalds).

It'll be interesting to see if the US banks dig in their heels for lower fees when the first AP contracts are up for renewal (reportedly after three years have passed).

If Apple opened NFC up to other wallets, I wonder if it would benefit iPhone adoption around the world in places where Apple is keen to grow sales. I think Apple goofed by not doing like Samsung and buying Loop Pay, since magnetic swipes still overwhelmingly make up the majority (~ 2/3) of purchases in the world... and will do so for some time to come.

 

[RedOrchestra]

and then, mostly for stuff like MacDonalds.

The merchant roll-out of contactless pay POS terminals has been unbelievably slow in the US.

Passbook, now Wallet, hasn't gone anywhere for Apple and Apple Pay may yet just become another niche Apple product / service.

Here's what the Globe and Mail had to say about Apple Pay -

"There are 28.5 million adults with Interac debit cards issued by Canada’s banks, and about 70 million credit cards. But only about 38 per cent of Canadian smartphone users have iPhones, and among them only some are Apple Pay ready (guessing from the global trends, a significant number are likely too old)."

 

[VeryVito]

Don't forget "scupper", another highly common word readers of an online rumor blog would be accustomed to.

I assumed "opprobrium" and "scupper" were just Australian things – like billabongs, barbies and bogans.

 

[fischersd]

The effect of that depends on what they buy with it, of course....
If Apple opened NFC up to other wallets, I wonder if it would benefit iPhone adoption around the world in places where Apple is keen to grow sales. I think Apple goofed by not doing like Samsung and buying Loop Pay, since magnetic swipes still overwhelmingly make up the majority (~ 2/3) of purchases in the world... and will do so for some time to come.

Yep, internationally contactless hasn't caught on as well as in north america. No argument there.

How well AP catches on here will also be affected by the merchants. One example - I can use my iPhone, but not my Apple Watch to pay for purchases at "The Beer Store" (if you're not familiar, it's a monopoly our two biggest beer makers own). Until The Beer Store updates the software in their TD POS terminals, I'm stuck pulling my iPhone out of my pocket (yes, reminds me to send them another e-mail pestering them about that).
Such things tend to turn customers off. Eventually they say "to hell with it" and just go back to tapping with their card.
Also, merchants not getting on board with AP and raising the transaction limits will also slow down adoption.

 

[EricTheHalfBee]

And the Canadian banks banded together, just like these 3 Australian banks are trying to - and all that did was delay Apple Pay being in Canada by about a year and a bit. (we should have had it at launch....seriously, contactless payment was already everywhere up here when ApplePay launched) *sigh*

That's not what happened. Interac (who processes debit in Canada) needed to make a change to their systems to handle tokenization. This is according to Interac themselves who issued a statement about it when Apple Pay launched.

 

[fischersd]

That's not what happened. Interac (who processes debit in Canada) needed to make a change to their systems to handle tokenization. This is according to Interac themselves who issued a statement about it when Apple Pay launched.

I'm sure they did as Interac didn't seem to support contactless payments, but the banks have issued statements that confirmed that they were negotiating with Apple as a collective (and Interac did not hold up the credit card portion of Apple Pay).
Apple also issued statements that they were launching with Amex as the negotiating with the banks was taking too long.

 

[jun180]

That is a lot of faith to be putting in entities that basically said flat out in their petition to the government that they'd like to do so. For reference, this is what page 78 of their application has to say:

Collective negotiation also offers the potential for the applicants to obtain a waiver or relaxation of Apple’s demands in relation to restrictions on pass-through. This brings with it the potential for the applicants to set price signals to their customers that reasonably reflect the additional costs of using Apple Pay and to recover those costs from the customers that cause them. This would allow for consumers to make more efficient decisions when deciding between different methods of payment (avoiding over-use of Apple Pay), promote efficient competition between alternative payment methods and avoid the distributional inequities that arise when restrictions on pass-through are applied.
​

(Also, I didn't think it was possible to "overuse" Apple Pay.)

Good pickup, and I agree that there is an element of faith. To my earlier point, until NFC is opened up by Apple, nobody knows what the system, business model, security, fees etc. would look like.

I want to make one point in response to the paragraph you quoted. In the application, they are talking about 'pass-through' of the fees charged by Apple to the bank, to be passed on to the customer if they use ApplePay. My earlier point was that I don't believe this would be an arbitrary fee (i.e. money grab) charged directly by the banks if the customer uses ApplePay.

Imagine a scenario where Apple actually opened up the NFC chip, and ApplePay was offered alongside a banks payment app. The user would have the choice to use either one, and their choice would be formed based on factors such as convenience, security, fees etc. A user may choose to happily pay the fee by Apple (or the bank) if they thought it was worthwhile using ApplePay, and could also choose to use a bank payment app if they did not want to incur any fees (or other reasons).

I think having the choice is important, and Apple is restricting this choice by restricting the hardware.

 

[cyanite]

Apple sure knows all about security, don't they

"Apple Removes Fake Bitcoin Wallets From App Store After Users Scammed"

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/08/09/fake-bitcoin-ios-apps-app-store/

It's possible to prevent fraudulent apps from getting onto the store, with the amount of apps that are submitted. That doesn't say anything about their own security. They can react when they find out, like they did, and of course revoke the developer licenses of the involved parties.

Restricting components (as in: not developing public APIs for them), is a very good way to stay secure.

 

[Roadstar]

Yep, internationally contactless hasn't caught on as well as in north america. No argument there.

Umm, I guess your definition of international doesn't include Europe? Based on comments on this forum and others I'm under the impression that the NFC terminal rollout has been somewhat slow in the US. Even though Apple Pay isn't available in many European countries yet, it's not due to contactless payment infra not being available. Apple is just missing out on the fun and in some cases driving those who want to use mobile payments to Android.

 

[fischersd]

Umm, I guess your definition of international doesn't include Europe? Based on comments on this forum and others I'm under the impression that the NFC terminal rollout has been somewhat slow in the US. Even though Apple Pay isn't available in many European countries yet, it's not due to contactless payment infra not being available. Apple is just missing out on the fun and in some cases driving those who want to use mobile payments to Android.

Heh...I didn't want to say "the west" and offend a whole bunch of other people. . Yes, I'm quite aware that lots of countries in Europe have good NFC adoption rates.

 

[JTToft]

Umm, I guess your definition of international doesn't include Europe? Based on comments on this forum and others I'm under the impression that the NFC terminal rollout has been somewhat slow in the US. Even though Apple Pay isn't available in many European countries yet, it's not due to contactless payment infra not being available. Apple is just missing out on the fun and in some cases driving those who want to use mobile payments to Android.

Heh...I didn't want to say "the west" and offend a whole bunch of other people. . Yes, I'm quite aware that lots of countries in Europe have good NFC adoption rates.

- I was about to comment the same thing. Thanks for saving me the trouble. Aside from Germany, which absolutely still lives in the stone age when it comes to retail payment systems, contactless is ubiquitous across (Western) Europe. And Apple Pay works in all those places, too. Apple just needs to hurry the hell up and secure deals with the banks here, so we can properly use it.

 

[Michael Goff]

Apple criticize everything and everyone but I don't see anyone criticizing Timmy who is the first CEO in Apple's history that let the mac line outdated for year and years.

He keeps selling us overpriced and slow junk that is 4 years old.

Timmy needs to get fired and fast as well as the entire Apple board

Are you sure you're looking on MacRumors, then?

 

[Yumbo]

I would love NFC sync on iPhone for my BT speaker. I share one speaker between three devices so resyncing between devices is a pain. NFC sync would sort all that out.

Keeping speakers next to device?
[doublepost=1470854025][/doublepost]

I love Apple, but no other company that I know of monopolizes interfaces for their own products (Bluetooth for AirDrop, NFC for Apple Pay).

Those that care about security.
[doublepost=1470854591][/doublepost]

You could always switch to Android

As much as I love my Macs, I really dig Android's openess in this regard. I can use my CommBank cards via the superb CommBank app, and my ANZ cards via the Android Pay app. Plenty of choice.

I find it a bit rich for Apple to suggest that keeping their NFC locked down somehow helps competition - all it does is funnel everyone through their payment system to generate more revenue for them. If anything, it's highly anti-competitive. Not that the banks are any better though.

So ANZ has Android Pay AND ApplePay.
The end?
Why can't the other 3?
All they're doing is allowing Apple users to consider switching banking to ANZ.
Haven't seen the reverse.
[doublepost=1470856514][/doublepost]

Yep, internationally contactless hasn't caught on as well as in north america. No argument there.

All over Australia, hence the obvious question, why isn't ApplePay available readily?
The big 4 banks here aren't customer friendly.
ANZ has improved.
Westpac innovates.
NAB is friendly.
Commonwealth doesn't want my business at all.

But I use Coles for credit, loyalty points.
And ING for debit, contactless for 2% Cashback until it lasts.

 

[uroshnor]

If yo

I've been with ANZ since the early 90s, a time full of horrible horrible experiences. I cant wait to untangle myself from them to the point where I can close the account. To each their own, I'm sure no large commercial bank has our best interests at heart, and ANZ associating with Apple scores 0 points in my book - although on a mac forum I'm guessing the majority would think differently.

If you think ANZ is bad, you haven't tried the others in the big 4.

In relative terms, they are significantly better than NAB and Westpac in terms of customer service, and the level of incompetence I have encountered at both is staggering.

Commonwealth do some things better than ANZ, but charge like a wounded bull.
[doublepost=1470858093][/doublepost]

Seems to me that Apple is placing a lot of barriers on a chip that isn't that much better than the chip inside the plastic cards currently used. in Australia we already ubiquitous contactless payments without a PIN up to $100 and security hasn't been a problem. For costs over $100, you have to enter your PIN anyway.
The fee for what Apple is offering should be tiny.

Apply Pay works over $AUD $100 without a pin. The family groceries frequently crack that limit each week.
[doublepost=1470858720][/doublepost]

Good pickup, and I agree that there is an element of faith. To my earlier point, until NFC is opened up by Apple, nobody knows what the system, business model, security, fees etc. would look like.

I want to make one point in response to the paragraph you quoted. In the application, they are talking about 'pass-through' of the fees charged by Apple to the bank, to be passed on to the customer if they use ApplePay. My earlier point was that I don't believe this would be an arbitrary fee (i.e. money grab) charged directly by the banks if the customer uses ApplePay.

Imagine a scenario where Apple actually opened up the NFC chip, and ApplePay was offered alongside a banks payment app. The user would have the choice to use either one, and their choice would be formed based on factors such as convenience, security, fees etc. A user may choose to happily pay the fee by Apple (or the bank) if they thought it was worthwhile using ApplePay, and could also choose to use a bank payment app if they did not want to incur any fees (or other reasons).

I think having the choice is important, and Apple is restricting this choice by restricting the hardware.

However, we do know that Apple does not allow direct hardware access to ANY radio on the device : NFC, Wi-fi, Cellular, GPS, Bluetooth.

EVERYTHING is constrained to high level APIs.

My guess is the current Apple Pay hardware in the devices is temporary, and Apple plans to transition away from it in the medium term. If they open it up for other purposes, and give low level access to third parties, then they don't have the flexibility to get rid of it easily.

(There is a lot of functional duplication between parts of the payments system like Secure Element in the NXP processor , and the Secure Enclave Processor . If Apple ever gets the latter through the relevent certifications then they might move to a hybrid Bluetooth / NFC radio and tie everything in to their own stack.

 

[SirLance99]

Commonwealth, NAB and Westpac take note...

ANZ didn't want to deal with your sh*t, and they partnered with Apple months ago. Guess what, ANZ has claimed over 50,000 new customers moving their bank accounts and credit cards over to use Apple Pay.

Please for the love of god just accept Apple's fees!!!

Link for the 50,000 claim

 

[Kroo]

Australians should be proud that some of their fellows still have enough backbone to stand up to Apple.

Opening up NFC would be beneficial all over the world, from wallets to ticketing systems to personal data exchanges.

Moreover, Apple is simply hosting secure payment applets written by the credit card companies. Apple didn't code those or the tokenization. Their demand that banks pay a fee to let their own customers register with those applets is sheer greed.

I think you need to educate yourself on how Australian banks operate before making typical biased claims. These banks don't offer a secure platform such as Apple Pay, in fact, fraud in tap and go payments have skyrocketed year on year, so unless they want to present a better option, the only greed going on here is from these banks. Unless you've missed the specifics on Apple Pay, nobody, not even Apple have data on the token transaction. These banks haven't proven that they intend to provide this protection to their customers, moreover, they're more likely to enter into data sharing with merchants for a price. Only a fool would trust banks not to sell data. They are the greediest banks on earth. Highest bank fees, highest transaction fees, highest credit card fees, and quarterly profits of $7-$9 billion dollars and the federal parliament looking into having a Royal Commission into their practices. You do pick some dodgy companies to side with in your private war against Apple. I feel sorry for you.

 

[RedOrchestra]

in fact, fraud in tap and go payments have skyrocketed year on year,

It's not the chip-enabled cards causing the fraud it's the high rate of theft of the cards ... BIG difference.

It's the various Police departments that have gone ballistic not the banks - sounds like an out-of-control criminal element that the inept law enforcement can't bring under control - Sounds like the populace needs to take responsibility for enabling the high theft rate of their credit cards.

 

[Kroo]

Interesting . I'm in Australia right now, using my Australian cards, but don't have access to my ApplePay (UK cards).

The chip and pin and contactless is superior to my ApplePay to be honest. £30 limit on the ApplePay is ......very limiting .

Things are not so bad in Oz mate. ApplePay is a nice feature, But not one to move banks for...choose your bank to make money/save money , not gimmicks . If ANZ get a few Apple fanboys, so what, the vast majority of users don't care, they will choose the bank with the best interest rates
[doublepost=1470824343][/doublepost]

Dunno ... Being a Mac Pro owner .... Seems my bank might care more

Except if you lose your card, a thief can go on a spree and empty your account before you even realize your card is gone. That's the biggest flaw in the tap and go system in Oz, mate.
[doublepost=1470866378][/doublepost]

It's not the chip-enabled cards causing the fraud it's the high rate of theft of the cards ... BIG difference.

It's the various Police departments that have gone ballistic not the banks - sounds like an out-of-control criminal element that the inept law enforcement can't bring under control - Sounds like the populace needs to take responsibility for enabling the high theft rate of their credit cards.

Well if the banks allowed Apple Pay, the fraud in that case would be zero. How can you blame the innocent for the actions of devious crimainals. Before tap & go, crooks had to be savvy in tech using skimmers in all devious ways. Now all they need is your card. God, these banks are even sending their customers cards in the mail already activated. Take a pot shot there before blaming the innocent customers.

 

[MH01]

Except if you lose your card, a thief can go on a spree and empty your account before you even realize your card is gone. That's the biggest flaw in the tap and go system in Oz, mate.

The generation before mine, mine and the one after mine has had enough common sense to own credit cards.... If your account gets emptied before you notice, the problem is with you.

Common sense trumps idiot proof systems like ApplePay. No one is forcing you to use tap and go btw.!

 

[Kroo]

The fraud rate, since going to contactless pay cards, has dropped considerably. What's the penetration of iPhone 6 and above phones vs the tap and goers now ... that would save them that much more?

Wrong! The Australian police are screaming for the banks to fix the system that has seen fraud INCREASE, not decrease.

If you have a link to disprove this report, I'd love to see it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...e/news-story/66619f221e41a549eab66ba34c596fa0
[doublepost=1470866984][/doublepost]

The generation before mine, mine and the one after mine has had enough common sense to own credit cards.... If your account gets emptied before you notice, the problem is with you.

Common sense trumps idiot proof systems like ApplePay. No one is forcing you to use tap and go btw.!

you're seriously using that argument? So if I get bashed over the head unconscious, my card is stolen and my bank account emptied by the time I am revived, it's all my fault? Geez, I'd hate to live in your universe. FYI crooks are targeting the elderly and bashing them just to get their tap & go cards. It's all the elderly people to blame. Yeah, right.
[doublepost=1470867260][/doublepost]

It's a bit rich coming from Apple that competition and security will be compromised if the NFC chip was opened up.

Allowing third parties to access the NFC hardware would not compromise the phone. If banks already use Apples existing Touch-ID API to authenticate user logins with biometric data, then I'm sure Apple can develop a similar API to allow secure access to the NFC chip. Opening up NFC on an iPhone brings far greater possibilities for other contactless technologies like building security, public transport (oyster in UK, OPAL/GO card in Aus), NFC pairing to other devices etc.

Australian banking end user technology is far further advanced than the UK and the US. Australia has had contactless card payments, and NFC enabled mobile payments on Android (and on iOS via an NFC sticker) for years now. ApplePay does not bring anything new to the table in Australia, it just brings some convenience. People will argue that security is a benefit with ApplePays tokenisation and touch ID etc. Until the NFC chip is opened up to 3rd parties, we don't have any comparison to judge how well security has been implemented across the payment process.

The banking apps released by CommBank, Westpac and ANZ are fantastic (NAB does suck) compared to the offerings in the UK and US. They offer things such as cardless ATM withdrawals, payments to others via standard bank transfer / text / facebook, in-app card management (change PIN, lock credit card, increase limit), touch ID authentication, bill payment, the list goes on. The banks in Australia want access to NFC to offer tap & pay functionality on iPhones through their native apps (something that consumers in Aus such as myself have wanted for a long time long before Apple Pay was even rumoured). It will add the final missing piece to the rich functionality already offered by these apps. It will provide choice through competition, and allow users to choose which payment method they would like to use rather than having one pushed onto them.

You clearly haven't read up on how Apple Pay works I take it? Maybe you should find out how different it is before making comment that demean your argument.

 

[kolax]

If the banks had access to NFC, we'd end up with fragmented apps that all feel different and be more unreliable or less privacy focused.

Apple Pay works well because it's a consistent experience regardless of who your card issuer is or what bank you're with and so far it's proven to be a very trustworthy service.

 

[MH01]

you're seriously using that argument? So if I get bashed over the head unconscious, my card is stolen and my bank account emptied by the time I am revived, it's all my fault? Geez, I'd hate to live in your universe. FYI crooks are targeting the elderly and bashing them just to get their tap & go cards. It's all the elderly people to blame. Yeah, right.

My question is how did people like you live before ApplePay.... Must have been hell! Did you leave home?

If your are worried about tap and go! You OPT OUT!!! Geez.... People are not morons, take some responsibility !

While with ApplePay the worst criminals will knock you unconscious and get access to your phone via touchid. The worst ones can borrow your finger and go on an unlimited spending spree!!!! Anyway stupid stupid example, cause even if you have Apple Pay, you get knocked out , they just get your wallet and get your cards! Or are you one of those special people that does not carry thier cards with you?

 

[RedOrchestra]

Wrong! The Australian police are screaming for the banks to fix the system that has seen fraud INCREASE, not decrease.

The reason why banker's heart rates don't rise is because the credit card fraud rate amounts to 0.06% - an indiscernible blip ...

http://www.apca.com.au/docs/fraud-statistics/Australian-payments-fraud-details-and-data-2015.pdf