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Apple Launches MacBook Pros with Thunderbolt, Quad Core CPUs, AMD GPUs

AidenShaw said:
This is misleading.

If you look at Intel's motherboards for Sandy Bridge CPUs - 8 out of 10 have USB 3.0. Two micro-ATX boards don't have it, although four other micro-ATX boards do have USB 3.0.

In other words, all Intel Sandy Bridge ATX motherboards have USB 3.0, and USB 3.0 is available on an Intel board in every form factor.

There's a big difference between testing in a secret lab with a few prototype devices, and field testing with a range of production devices and environments. That's what I meant by can't possibly have been tested to any realistic degree.

It's a hack in the sense that a dual-purpose port is good for some things, bad for others.

Consider that you have your mDP monitor connected, and you want to connect your Thunderbolt array. Unplug the monitor, plug the drive into the mDP port, plug the monitor into the array. Add another drive - unplug the monitor again, add 2nd drive, reconnect monitor.

Now, remove the first drive. Oops, can't do that without unplugging the second drive - this could mean a shutdown/restart, or at least dismounting the second drive.

And what if you have a new Apple monitor that's a thunderbolt device (an mDP monitor with Thunderbolt devices - like USB/card readers, disks (think of an Imac without a CPU, just a board with a bunch of PCIe devices)). If you unplug the monitor, all those PCI devices disappear. Or, you can go behind the monitor and daisy-chain the drive off the Thunderbolt port on the display. (I assume that Apple wouldn't put the port in a convenient location on the front or side.)

Much of the hassle here comes from daisy-chaining, so lets put a couple of more Thunderbolt ports on the laptop. Now it becomes wierd. Are the two new ports Thunderbolt-only (no DisplayPort signals). Do you now have three identical ports, but your monitor only works in one of them?




Or, the USB 3.0 spec timeline didn't work for Intel's multi-year chipset development schedules. Or, after the USB 1.0 mess, Intel wanted the spec to stabilize in the wild before embedding it in the core silicon.

The fact that all Intel Sandy Bridge ATX motherboards have USB 3.0 doesn't exactly mesh with "trying to de-rail" USB 3.0.




Welcome to the bleeding edge - particularly with a non-locking connector that might have hot-plug issues.
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First, AidenShaw ... you're a respected and knowledgeable poster on these boards!!

So with regret I'll try to rebuttal.

1) A dual-porpose port is NOTHING bad.
- PCI, PCIX, or IDE had no issues being dual purpose as internal expansion cards on desktops for over a decade for some: MIDI, PCI, or USB1.1/2.0/3.0 recently eiter all individuallly separate or in some combination or another. THAT is the way desktops have worked for years ... nothing new here - just your fear of mDP with PCI connection as another layer = Thunderbolt.

2) Daisy chaining Thunderbolt is NOT a big issue as you described in your diatribe paragraph above.

USB1.1/2.0 was quite capable of daisy chaining - power requirements for 5 connections per hub cause issues - but it was done. Firewire 400/800 solved issues that you describe by adding more than one external HDD ...

1 is direct to the MBP> then to LCD> then to 2nd HDD. Remove the LCD daisy-chain the 2 external HDD together then LCD as the final connection. Recall that Apple has had PERFECT LCD - external LCD drive recog since the dawn .. you know those 11" LCD's - they JUST WORKED - I know because I did this first hand with a PowerBook 3400CS and an 11" LCD by Samsung/LG. no issue.

There is no issues with putting more than one ThunderBolt port on a MBP ... just power requirements which is a correlation to how USB works.

Apple will do just fine with Intel's help - pushed by Dell/etc for external hardware ... 1 already exists for online purchase using the ThunderBolt port.
 
Saturn1217 said:
Apparently there is still only a glossy 13inch MBP...

I hate to be a complainer (the rest of the specs on all the models look pretty nice) but I can't believe they still won't give the 13inch MBP this option.
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Apple just doesn't "get it".

They've let their successes cloud their vision.
 
Prom1 said:
2) Daisy chaining Thunderbolt is NOT a big issue as you described in your diatribe paragraph above.

USB1.1/2.0 was quite capable of daisy chaining - power requirements for 5 connections per hub cause issues - but it was done. Firewire 400/800 solved issues that you describe by adding more than one external HDD ...
Click to expand...

The biggest headache with daisy-chaining it removing/replacing large mass storage devices - file systems don't like being intentionally disconnected (or accidentally disconnected, since MDP isn't a locking connector).

USB doesn't daisy-chain - you build a tree-structured topology using multiple hubs. You connect hubs to hubs, not devices to devices. You don't need to disturb any other device to remove or add a device.

A few devices (such as some keyboards and monitors) have internal USB hubs with downstream USB ports. These still are part of a tree-structured USB hub topology, although unplugging the monitor or keyboard disconnects the hub, therefore downstream devices.

With a ThunderPort daisy-chain, only the last device can be added/removed without disconnecting other devices.


Prom1 said:
There is no issues with putting more than one ThunderBolt port on a MBP ... just power requirements which is a correlation to how USB works.
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Actually, PCIe lanes are a very limited resource. One of the posts here reported that the MBP cut the GPU back to PCIe x8 so that PCIe lanes would be available for a PCIe x4 connection could be freed for the ThunderPort.

That implies that adding a second one would be possible, but a third may not be possible.

A PCIe-PCIe bridge (something like a PCIe hub) could be used to create more ports, but then those ports on the bridge would need to share bandwidth.


Prom1 said:
1 already exists for online purchase using the ThunderBolt port.
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I haven't been able to find it (checked Newegg, OWC,...) - can you please provide a link?
 
Last edited:
biting the bullet!!!

OK, i'm ready to upgrade.

I've decided on the standard 15inch MBP with a matte screen.

What will an upgrade of 8 gb ram give me? is it worth it.


I'm graphic designer using flash, photoshop, CS5 and possible video editing now i have more power.
 
Ratboy007 said:
OK, i'm ready to upgrade.

I've decided on the standard 15inch MBP with a matte screen.

What will an upgrade of 8 gb ram give me? is it worth it.


I'm graphic designer using flash, photoshop, CS5 and possible video editing now i have more power.
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In 3 years, you won't regret having more RAM. It's a basic upgrade you can make upfront (or in the future, depending on your budget now) to extend the life of any computer purchase a while longer.
 
if you don't need it now, it can be cheaper to wait

PeterQVenkman said:
In 3 years, you won't regret having more RAM. It's a basic upgrade you can make upfront (or in the future, depending on your budget now) to extend the life of any computer purchase a while longer.
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On the other hand, while it's more convenient to get the system initially with 8 GiB, there are two drawbacks.
  • Factory installed memory from any vendor is often considerably more expensive than aftermarket memory (but, you have the advantage that Apple is on the hook for warranty issues)
  • Memory prices for mainstream modules are dropping in price, so if you wait a year or two you can probably buy 8 GiB for a lot less than Apple's price for the 4 GiB->8 GiB upgrade.
 
AidenShaw said:
  • Memory prices for mainstream modules are dropping in price, so if you wait a year or two you can probably buy 8 GiB for a lot less than Apple's price for the 4 GiB->8 GiB upgrade.
Click to expand...
I am somewhat wary that this trend will continue for much longer. NewEgg and many other vendors have been dumping DDR3-1333 or slower RAM as quickly as possible. Anything faster has resisted the downward price trend until recently. I expect supplies to finally dwindle and prices to stabilize.

Then again anything compatible with P67 has been sitting in a warehouse until the B3 stepping boards are back to their old levels.
 
Eidorian said:
I am somewhat wary that this trend will continue for much longer. NewEgg and many other vendors have been dumping DDR3-1333 or slower RAM as quickly as possible. Anything faster has resisted the downward price trend until recently. I expect supplies to finally dwindle and prices to stabilize.

Then again anything compatible with P67 has been sitting in a warehouse until the B3 stepping boards are back to their old levels.
Click to expand...

Agreed that there are supply-demand blips up and down.

However, the general price trend has always been down - particularly since the context of the post is "do I load an MBP to 8 GiB today, or upgrade it in a year or two?".

I also said "mainstream", because you don't want to wait too long. Once volumes drop, prices go back up. (Newegg has PC133 memory for about $50/GiB. whereas 1066MHz DDR3 memory is $13/GiB.)
 
AidenShaw said:
Agreed that there are supply-demand blips up and down.

However, the general price trend has always been down - particularly since the context of the post is "do I load an MBP to 8 GiB today, or upgrade it in a year or two?".

I also said "mainstream", because you don't want to wait too long. Once volumes drop, prices go back up. (Newegg has PC133 memory for about $50/GiB. whereas 1066MHz DDR3 memory is $13/GiB.)
Click to expand...
I agree that, currently, it is the best time to purchase 8 GB of RAM for your new MacBook Pro.

I do expect prices to stabilize or even increase in the short term, more so with the earthquake, until higher densities or newer memory technology appears.
 
AidenShaw said:
The biggest headache with daisy-chaining it removing/replacing large mass storage devices - file systems don't like being intentionally disconnected (or accidentally disconnected, since MDP isn't a locking connector).
Click to expand...

Given current monitors don't have Thunderbolt connectivity, the external monitor would have to be the last device in the chain. So the real problem would be that every time you disconnect a Thunderbolt device, you're disconnecting your monitor as well (and you may then have to connect it straight to the computer again and then move it again every time you need to connect ANY device). That sounds like one PITA hassle to me. A dedicated video port with the possibility of having and additional video output (i.e. to replace the MBP small monitor for example) would be far more acceptable IMO. I think you'd basically need a hub connected to the port first to avoid the monitor hassle when docking.
 
AidenShaw said:
The biggest headache with daisy-chaining it removing/replacing large mass storage devices - file systems don't like being intentionally disconnected (or accidentally disconnected, since MDP isn't a locking connector).
Click to expand...
USB 2 hard drives don't have locking connectors either.
AidenShaw said:
USB doesn't daisy-chain - you build a tree-structured topology using multiple hubs. You connect hubs to hubs, not devices to devices. You don't need to disturb any other device to remove or add a device.
Click to expand...
I've used daisy chains with SCSI back in the old days and Firewire, and it is not a problem. Actually, for laptops having everything you want at your desk ready to plug to your computer with one connector sounds ideal when I compare to my current scenario: FW800 drive to one port USB 2 hard drive to another, USB 2 card reader to another, 2nd monitor to the DVI port. 4 cables to unplug every time I leave my desk instead of 1.

For the swapping argument, yes you're right in principle, but who sits around plugging and unplugging hard drives every five minutes.
 
Denarius said:
USB 2 hard drives don't have locking connectors either.
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I can see the ads - "ThunderPort - it's no better than USB 2". ;)


Denarius said:
I've used daisy chains with SCSI back in the old days and Firewire, and it is not a problem.
Click to expand...

Not a problem, as long as you're happy with rebooting when you change a connection - or having a RAID array dissolve because a cable was loose.


Denarius said:
Actually, for laptops having everything you want at your desk ready to plug to your computer with one connector sounds ideal when I compare to my current scenario: FW800 drive to one port USB 2 hard drive to another, USB 2 card reader to another, 2nd monitor to the DVI port. 4 cables to unplug every time I leave my desk instead of 1.
Click to expand...

That's an argument saying how lame Apple has been for not having a docking station for MBPs since forever. My Dell and Lenovo laptops are one-click connect/disconnect to the docking stations. (And, they know which docking stations they connect to - some have keyboards/mice, some have disks, some have an external monitor or two....)


Denarius said:
For the swapping argument, yes you're right in principle, but who sits around plugging and unplugging hard drives every five minutes.
Click to expand...

Not every 5 minutes, but when you do need to (since Apple doesn't support eSATA anywhere) it's a PITA to have to shut down and reboot to change the chain.
 
AidenShaw said:
I can see the ads - "ThunderPort - it's no better than USB 2". ;)
Click to expand...

Thunderport sounds like it belongs in an anti-gas commercial. :D

But then the iPad sounds like it belongs in a personal hygiene commercial. It still sells.... ;)

That's an argument saying how lame Apple has been for not having a docking station for MBPs since forever.
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You know how it is with fanboys. It's never a good idea until Steve/Apple thinks of it (two decades later). Then it's the best thing ever! :rolleyes:
 
AidenShaw said:
Not every 5 minutes, but when you do need to (since Apple doesn't support eSATA anywhere) it's a PITA to have to shut down and reboot to change the chain.
Click to expand...

Yes every five minutes . . . sometimes sooner or later depending the footage being captured from a Panasonic P2 camera directly to a portable drive, then having that drive sent back to the edit bay for dumping onto the mass storage server.

That's swapping out two drives every 5-10 minutes, and boy would I hate to have to restart my lappie every time.

I take it no one's found an answer to the PCIe hot-swap question? Oh wait, there's no real hard drives in the wild for anyone to test, and the overpaid tech columnist didn't have the guts to pull the cable out of that Promise drive showing off TB.
 
tthere5 said:
How many dells would you have to buy to achieve the longevity and resale value of a MBP? I had a dell laptop in medical school that didn't last all 4 years. I bought a PowerBook right after that that I've had since- pushing 7 years. I admit that this is a stretch and I can't do much with the PowerBook anymore but it still runs great and it can do everything it could do in 2005 whereas the Dell has long ago been scrapped. If you're planning to buy a new laptop every 2-3 years anyway then the arguement boils down to the OS, brand, aesthetics ect.
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I think I have you beat. I have the original release of the TiBook G4 400Mhz that runs perfectly today = almost 12yrs old now if not 13yrs going on 14yrs. Other than a slightly loose hinge its working GREAT!
 
AidenShaw said:
That's an argument saying how lame Apple has been for not having a docking station for MBPs since forever. My Dell and Lenovo laptops are one-click connect/disconnect to the docking stations. (And, they know which docking stations they connect to - some have keyboards/mice, some have disks, some have an external monitor or two....)
Click to expand...
There you go then: docking issues solved.
 
AidenShaw said:
If Apple's past is any clue though, the only "MacBook Docking Station" will be a $1200 monitor with one non-user replaceable disk drive and a few ports (no eSATA or USB 3.0, of course).
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Everything connected to a high speed chain fits the docking bill very nicely IMO. Whatever floats your boat. Bit difficult to say either way categorically given that nobody actually has a Thunderbolt peripheral to my knowledge.
 
Denarius said:
Difficult to see how any peripheral connection technology can be revolutionary. Evolutionary would be more appropriate.
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Very true, especially when it actually makes it harder for the end user to connect technology.

Thunderbolt still seems very confusing when it comes to connecting two or more disk arrays and a monitor.
 
AidenShaw said:
So amusing that Thunderbolt has so much hype on MacRumours - yet no one here has used it with any off-the-shelf (or off-the-web) product.

I think that is the definition of "faith" - belief in something without any empirical evidence to support the belief.
Click to expand...


By the same token, itemised lists of speculative criticisms are equally premature.
 
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