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"USA political liberal" barely even registers as "slightly left" in most global circles.

The fact that professors lean liberal and students who learn more, get broader experiences, and grow up during important intellectually developing years away from the ruts of their small towns and among peers engaged in learning come out more liberal than they came in is absolutely irrelevant to the classically liberal skills they will learn in most half way decent colleges that help them to identify fake and misleading news.

The fact that colleges might be "liberal" is certainly immaterial to the active peddling of lies, misinformation and misguided outrage among the right and alt-right which has been objectively demonstrated over and over. The fact that one side leans philosophically left is not a counter point to the other side lying their faces off.

The problem here is that we're using the terms liberal/conservative, but in too many different 'spheres' for a comparison. The USA parties (Democrat/Republican) aren't really even close to pure forms of either end of the spectrum, with a few specific exceptions.

I suppose there are more 'political left' forms outside the USA that are more pure socialistic, and in that regard, the USA is only slightly left on the left side (with the possible exception if a few newcomers like AOC who don't even know what socialism is, but embrace the name... maybe Bernie a bit).

When we're talking about education, as in liberal education, we're not talking about political spectrum at all. In fact, most colleges today aren't very liberal education at all, as they have moved more towards specialization. In other words, liberal education has a 'whole person focus' meaning, not a political slant.

The problem is that more of the curriculum and pushed view of the professors in today's colleges is political left-leaning. If certain views are being pushed at the exclusion (or even banning of others), that isn't classicaly liberal, nor is it critical thinking... almost the opposite, no matter if the school was politically conservative or liberal.

Then there is classical liberal vs traditional conservative, which is more like what people in the USA would think of as libertarian vs social-class and institutional-heavy. So, almost completely different meanings there as to what people think liberal and conservative mean.

Then there are political liberal and conservative in terms of spectrum between capitalism/socialism or anarchy-'freedom'/authoritarian, progressive/tradition, etc.

The problem is that in the USA, the parties are weird mixes of various definitions that don't fit neatly together.

In some ways, I agree though.... IF they escape what I'm complaining about above. For example, I've studied with students from asian countries, and (as a broad overgeneralization) they tend to expect to be taught a particular view, which is the (supposedly) correct view. Whereas, professors in the 'West' tend to bring out conflicting views in their assigned reading for discussion purposes and giving the students the tools to choose and/or blend.

BUT... that exists more (in my experience) on the conservative side of the education spectrum more than the liberal side, as typically the liberal view is that conservative writers have little to offer, so they don't study them. Conservatives tend to read both sides, if for nothing else than to argue against the liberal authors... but at least the students are exposed to them.

What we're seeing on campuses these days, though, is an almost radical exclusion of particular viewpoints... which is insanely dangerous, and quite the opposite of what we're talking about here, critical thinking.

I think you're also assuming that only the 'right' engages in "active peddling of lies, misinformation and misguided outrage" which isn't the case at all.
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Because unfortunately, especially for politics, what is being pushed as news, especially on social media isn't news and is often full of misinformation, propaganda or falsehoods.

The question is, are the so called "news sites" that Apple is de-platforming legitimate or illigitimate.

I loosely agree with much of what you wrote, BUT the problem is who gets to be the arbiter of truth?

While there is a ton of misinformation and lots of good info on social media, so is there on the MSM. It used to be (or, at least a bit more so) that professional journalism meant something, and that the bigger media outlets (though not without slant) did more reporting than opinion pieces.

Now, I actually find independent, low-budget journalists on social media and podcasts to be more accurate on the whole... the problem is picking and choosing which ones vs those who are clueless or have some agenda to distort.

With the MSM, you are GOING to get a particular bias, partly from the gov't, partly from the political ideology of the organization and journalists, but mostly from the advertisers (and/or sponsors, hello NPR!).

With social media, it's a mixed bag.... some great resources all the way to crack-pots. You have to (and get to) decide.

If there were some authority I'd trust to do the de-platforming, then great. But, unfortunately, there isn't. They might be de-platforming to truly take down some bad stuff, but they might also be doing so to silence the truth. And, both has been happening.
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There exist people who do not understand the concept that some things on the Internet are fake. Intentionally misleading or satire, they believe it because they saw it shared by a friend on Facebook or Twitter and the link looked the same as any credible news story. Checking so much as the domain name, let alone the tenor of the content before them, doesn't cross their mind.

Ahh, yes. But, the solution to that, is teaching people critical thinking skills and logic, not gate-keeping information or promoting 'official' news authorities. In fact, these two approaches are in opposition to one another.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Setting up curated 'good' news and de-platforming 'bad' news is actually counterproductive to promoting critical thought. It is essentially trying to train people to believe that authority XYZ is doing the critical thinking for them, so they don't have to.
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The problem is that sea-level rise is quite small over a long period of time. The problem they are having aren't due to sea-level rise. And, as popular as it is to blame every storm and and flood on global warming in news reports, even the top climate scientists are starting to warn against that baloney.

They may well be having problems in Miami, but they won't know for a century or two whether global warming is making things worse or not.
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But, and I mean this as a sincere concern, we're not going to stay that way if the right keeps engaging in the Brietbart/Infowars/Fox news game. Inevitably we'll be pushed far lefter than me, an admitted leftie, is comfortable with.

The problem is that Brietbart/Infowars/Fox are kind of their own political thing, not necessarily conservative. And, most of the Democratic party are their own thing, too, which is more neocon than liberal.

And, unfortunately, both of those 'parties' or segments of parties, actually agree on most things which are beneficial to their power, greed, and support of special interests, and antithetical to what is beneficial to you and I (if you don't believe me, pay more attention to what goes on in Congress).

So long as we all play into this Democrat/Republican and/or Fox vs other-MSM game, they kind of have us right where they want us (warring against each other, rather than taking them down).
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The thing is, the more you try to regulate information, the less those people are going to listen or cooperate. It's like how scientists and Democrats managed to make people think global climate change is fake by attacking people over it or acting defensive whenever people questioned it. If you play the censorship role, you make it political, and people are reasonable to respond negatively to that.

THIS ^^^ Bingo!

Because, if you are a critical thinker, that kind of behavior should immediately raise red-flags. Even if you know nothing about the topic, you'll (historically) be right more than wrong if you take the side of the underdog when you see that kind of behavior.

When your argument isn't strong enough to stand on its own and you have to shut-down dissent... that's typically a sign that there is a problem. You might even be right, but you're trying to cover up something, even if that is some lack of confidence in your position.

So, I immediately take the opposition side (as a safety precaution), until I can fill in my knowledge enough to form a reasonable opinion (and hopefully, eventually, a solid trust/belief).
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I agreed with this before the alt right and Nazis marched on my town.

I'm curious if you watched it on TV, or were among the crowd? Because, I watched the MSM in horror, but then ran across some stuff that wasn't adding up. Then I spent like 2 solid days doing my own research, which involved watching a LOT of cell-phone footage, which differed greatly from the MSM story line.

The main reason I ask, is that you said Nazis marched on your town. While the viewpoints on the 'right' were pretty diverse, I only saw one 'Nazi' who was an obvious plant who made sure to appear in most of the MSM clips. (Point being... if people can't differentiate between nationalists and supremacists, and are just tossing around terms like that to mean 'very undesirable' then we're in trouble!)

I'm not sure what you plan to stamp out. People become extremists by discovering the "alternative news," real or fake, that inevitably floats around. After realizing mainstream media silences certain viewpoints that they barely sympathize with, they flip pretty quickly and won't come back. I mean, they're not 100% wrong. If the media is actively trying to influence people, that's a breach of trust, plus they have to be ignoring some facts. But these people are usually irrationally paranoid and won't believe anything the media says after that, so it's game over. It's like trying to win an argument by yelling.

Good example is this New Zealand shooter video. It's actively censored. It's very easy to find if you want to find it. Worse, the media reports on tons of details in the video, making it clear that they watched it. You should see the crap people on 4chan seriously think about it (well, maybe not, cause it's disturbing).

Very well said. And, while I have no wish to watch the video the shooter produced (should I?), what I find more disturbing is the distortion and cover-up of his motives and ideology, and/or the people behind him. While I suppose one can say anyone capable of doing something like that is nuts, the manifesto clearly wasn't... and is something we're all going to be dealing with soon enough if we don't wake up.

I'm not actually sure the producers of the MSM even realize that, or if they were just so anxious to try and make it about Trump somehow, that they got distracted.
 
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I loosely agree with much of what you wrote, BUT the problem is who gets to be the arbiter of truth?

YOU get to be. That's the point behind critical thinking. Critical thinking is supposed to teach you the skills to identify it.

you're conflating though, as it sounds like you're trying to make the point that companies, like CNN, or Apple news, are under some obligation to cover and carry anyone and everything.

They are NOT. Apple News is under zero obligation to carry sources that they don't agree with. MSM is under no obligation to cary sources they don't agree with. These are all private enterprises and are free to excercise their rights to carry, or not. To platform, or not.

For Example: if Apple decides that it does not want to carry InfoWars because of the low quality of content, they are 100% within their rights to do so.

it is then you, as a customer, responsibility to decide whether or not you wish to continue to patronize Apple and provide them revenues based on your clicks/purchases, or, should you believe them behaving in a way you don't like, move elsewhere.

I'm not going to disagree that there are a lot of small independant youtuber's who have a lot of capabilities of delivering factual news. I watch a few channels on youtube for science and space news, because they do it far more in depth, and accurate than a blurb on cnn or fox has ever done.

But at the same time, for every 1 amazing source, there are 100 sources that are out there to spread their own propaganda for their own purposes. (For example, go look up videos on flat earth, there are no shortage of "experts" and "reports" dressed up as news pushing the flat earth conspiracy).

Ultimately it is up to you and I, to filter out that nonsense. That's what Critical thinking is about. Not creating censorship and enforcing it on you.
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The main reason I ask, is that you said Nazis marched on your town. While the viewpoints on the 'right' were pretty diverse, I only saw one 'Nazi' who was an obvious plant who made sure to appear in most of the MSM clips. (Point being... if people can't differentiate between nationalists and supremacists, and are just tossing around terms like that to mean 'very undesirable' then we're in trouble!)

You've lost ALL credibility in this debate by going down this route.

if you look at his location it was Charlottesville. yhe very location where a Neo-Nazi drove his car into a crowd and killed someone.

the same place where there was literally the night before a march of hundreds of young men with Tiki torches yelling "Jews will not replace us" and "Blood and soil". Regardless if these clips were on MSM or not, they were factual and happened.

"only one nazi" claim is absolutely bogus and either disingenous, or you are outright lying in refusal to accept truth. You don't get to substitute your own reality when actual reality does not meet up with what you expect. Defending Neo-Nazi's by downplaying their behaviour is also a terrible look.

Please don't even bother replying to my posts anymore as I'm sorry, I don't think you and I are going to come to agreeances as this position alone you've taken has really put you in a place of someone I never want to talk to.
 
Not sure what schools have CNN "blasting," but CNN sucks, their journalism aside, because of their "panels" that devolve into two or more people yelling over each other à la a boxing match until the next commercial break. It baffles me how people watch it willingly. But instead of journalists being able to provide context and discuss falsehoods said by politicians, you'd rather C-SPAN just let politicians go on unfettered screeds?
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And that's when you get people setting up a WordPress site with a newsy-looking theme at trumpnews1776.com and whatever typo-ridden nonsense they post there being shared hundreds of thousands, and perhaps millions, of times as "news" because they don't know how to discern that an online source (or any source) may not be credible.

There exist people who do not understand the concept that some things on the Internet are fake. Intentionally misleading or satire, they believe it because they saw it shared by a friend on Facebook or Twitter and the link looked the same as any credible news story. Checking so much as the domain name, let alone the tenor of the content before them, doesn't cross their mind.

That's
a problem, not just for news but for life in general. If you can't think critically about what you're being told, you will make yourself look like a moron at some point…at best. Worse cases include being scammed, buying into MLM companies that tell you that you'll make riches off of someone else's idea, and unwittingly taking faulty medical/legal advice.

This is your opinion and thats fine. I don’t need megacorps deciding that for me. You’re just going to step in and tell people what is and isn’t fake news now because they’re too dumb to figure it out themselves? What an elitist attitude
 
This is your opinion and thats fine. I don’t need megacorps deciding that for me. You’re just going to step in and tell people what is and isn’t fake news now because they’re too dumb to figure it out themselves? What an elitist attitude

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that." —George Carlin​

Anyway, it's not that people are too dumb to discern fake news from real news; I don't believe that that's the case at all. It's that they've never been taught the critical thinking skills necessary to do so. If people were too dumb, I highly doubt that Apple would be making this investment which isn't gatekeeping fake news but rather teaching media literacy skills.

However, appealing to an "elitist attitude" is not going to work for me and shouldn't work for anyone. The word "elitist" typically rises from the death of expertise, where any common idiot with access to a Web browser develops this attitude that they know as much as doctors, lawyers, and more in their respective fields and refuses to accept that their lack of formal education in a given field makes them less qualified to discuss it than those with credentials, whom they deem as elitists.

Enter fake news "independent journalists," anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, bad online legal/medical advice, anthropogenic climate change denial, etc. All of these are symptoms of a much broader problem and not fixable in and of themselves without addressing said broader problem.
 
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"Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that." —George Carlin​

Anyway, it's not that people are too dumb to discern fake news from real news; I don't believe that that's the case at all. It's that they've never been taught the critical thinking skills necessary to do so. If people were too dumb, I highly doubt that Apple would be making this investment which isn't gatekeeping fake news but rather teaching media literacy skills.

However, appealing to an "elitist attitude" is not going to work for me and shouldn't work for anyone. The word "elitist" typically rises from the death of expertise, where any common idiot with access to a Web browser develops this attitude that they know as much as doctors, lawyers, and more in their respective fields and refuses to accept that their lack of formal education in a given field makes them less qualified to discuss it than those with credentials, whom they deem as elitists.

Enter fake news "independent journalists," anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, bad online legal/medical advice, anthropogenic climate change denial, etc. All of these are symptoms of a much broader problem and not fixable in and of themselves without addressing said broader problem.

You’re missing the point. The fact that you think other people’s ways of thinking need to be “fixed” or “educated out of them” is the problem. And it’s elitist.
 
You’re missing the point. The fact that you think other people’s ways of thinking need to be “fixed” or “educated out of them” is the problem. And it’s elitist.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you seemingly believe people don't need critical thinking skills.
 
If Apple wants Media Literacy, then Apple News should mark the following outlets as Fake News for pushing things like the Trump/Russia conspiracy:

CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, NYT, WashPo, HuffPo, Buzzfeed, half of Fox News, and others

I want all of these sources removed from Apple News by default. I want a badge to show up next to their articles if users add them. Here's a quick mockup:

Apple News Fake New Badge.jpg


Anything less and I am not buying it.
 
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It's interesting you talk about "ideas contrary to our country's best interests" and not "the truth."

Less interesting but quite telling is how your commentary on this issue related to fake and misleading news is somehow directed at the "liberal" education system but not Fox News, Brietbart, Infowars, etc - the most obvious peddlers of this problematic nonsense and most decidedly NOT members of the "liberal educational complex."

Please stop inserting your talking points into my comment. I am 70 and a retired HS teacher. I was there in the late 60s as a student when those classes in Citizenship were in their death throws... "Government is too hard". I spent a career as students went through public school no longer exposed to how our country works. THAT is what I am talking about. I am explaining why young people of today rail against our government... they do not know how it is designed to work. The young of today think the Electoral College is stupid... no one every taught them is is a cornerstone of our county's success; as an example. Please take my post at face value... I write my own stuff.
 
Many "news" outlets distract from bad events for their political owners by burying a story. I've noticed when celebrities are dominating a news cycle, real events are being buried.

Event: Near entire media exposed gaslighting the public for 2 years with the Trump/Russia lie. Watergate ^ 1000 scandal for the Democrats.

The front-pages of Big Media 2 days later:
1268F706-AB6B-4447-A03F-BDCF11FBE249.jpeg
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Do you get it now?

Seeing any patterns?
 
You’re missing the point. The fact that you think other people’s ways of thinking need to be “fixed” or “educated out of them” is the problem. And it’s elitist.

actually, you missed the point.

he's not saying that you indoctrine the person with opinions that they must believe.

You teach them how to understand, analyse and understand, and then use their brain power to come up with their own conclusions.

That's what critical thinking is. And At no point should ANYONE ever be against giving everyone else the tools in order to think critically. Regardless of what their opinion outcomes become.


That's what is important about childhood education. The foundationfor it should be the application of critical thinking and the understanding of the world around them, so that when they are in the real world and have to understand ideas that have complexities, they have the tools at their disposal to come up with their own reasoned arguments.

today, you will find that a lot of people with extremely strong emotional opinions don't understand WHY they have those opinions. Often because of poor teaching of the basic critical thinking skills, and purposeful indoctrination by authority figures.
 
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