Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Some would point out if a 2014 machine works for you great, many like new ports/ GPU super fast SSD, using external GPU 5K monitors etc. and it’s a package deal. Buying 5 year old machine with no warranty is not a great strategy.

Although I would admit that I bought 'old' tech. I purchased a refurb 2015 MBP.

*Price was very good (got upgraded CPU)
*One year warranty
*Plenty of ports
*No 'Butterfly' keyboard
*Didn't need 'Touchbar'
*Did I mention 'Plenty of ports?' Didn't have to buy extra dongles (at $19 to $35 each).

May upgrade when 2020 models come out (if they finally get it right......)
 
Somehow, I doubt it.

Considering that the 2017 keyboard is considered more reliable than the 2016 one, it's clear that Apple is continuing to work on refining its design (of which there is another patent). As such, it stands to reason that the 2018 macbook pro will either sport a further-improved version of this butterfly design which dramatically cuts down on the failure rate, or Apple might decide to (eventually) do away with physical laptop keyboard and go full-touchbar keyboard.

Either way, I don't see Apple walking back on this. The 2016 MBP form factor is likely here to stay (more or less) for the next couple of years.

I think you are right here. I also believe they are moving towards a full touchscreen keyboard (probably within 5 years at the earliest)...likely with haptic feedback to approximate keystrokes. I would be really excited at a keyboard with real keys that have e-ink or oled displays in them, but I think that would be too complicated for Apple's taste. I'm not super psyched at the idea of a touchscreen keyboard, however, given how much I write with computers.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Apple Fritter
I returned my 2017 15” MBP because the N key started double-typing a week after I bought it. I’m glad Apple is finally owning this, maybe this year will have a version 3 keyboard that sucks less. I’m sure I’m not the only one considering ditching MacBook because of the keyboards - when my 2013 bites the dust, I may have to look at other options. It’s not just the repair issues either - I found my programming typing speed greatly decreased, especially with the new space-filling arrow keys.
 
Just to remind you, I never said this issue is acceptible and we should just be happy about it - however, now that they did do the right thing, I don’t see a reason to be negative about it. And when I had issues, I didn’t accept their half fix of a few replaced keys and asked for a full top replacement, an expensive repair straight from Apple’s wallet.

Many companies never give in to pressure and just as it is justified to expect the best from companies like Apple, I also think credit should be given where credit’s due. This is a good decision, they are also refunding previous repairs - and hopefuly they improved the reliability further (I doubt they want 4 years of expansive replacements in great numbers) - so, in the end, I feel happy with their response.

Same as the battery thing: I am glad people mounted pressure on them forcing them to lower battery replacement cost on iPhones. I hope people pressure them further so that this price remains after 2018 as well.

All this is good. But being so negative even when they do something like this is just being an @$$ :)

In short: keep the pressure, give credit where due, buy what you like and don’t call other forum members pejorative names. That is all I expect.

It's the right move, little late equally the right thing to do. We should also look to understand the driving factors that created this situation, and not solely accept the solution blindly.

Apple needs to step up to the plate and start to be more open with it's customers. Stop being reactionary and revert to innovation. It's no longer the 1980's, Apple now needs to listen to It's professional audience. We are far more well versed, far more sophisticated. Disregarding us as not understanding our profession requirements is plainly unwise.

Bottom line Apple is far better off with us on the team, than batting for the other side. Apple wants to be recognised as provider of professional hardware and software it needs to be more open, and understanding of our needs, most importantly deliver. Are you simply satisfied with the Mac being something that looks nice with mediocre performance? I for one and many others are not...

Many current Windows notebooks are now encroaching into iMac levels of performance. Very much time for Apple to decide which side of the fence it sits, it's time to play the game or "fold" and go see what colour best complements Latte Mochachino with caramel...

Q-6

Sponsored by Asahi beer and Hendriks Gin :p
 
Last edited:
I think you are right here. I also believe they are moving towards a full touchscreen keyboard (probably within 5 years at the earliest)...likely with haptic feedback to approximate keystrokes. I would be really excited at a keyboard with real keys that have e-ink or oled displays in them, but I think that would be too complicated for Apple's taste. I'm not super psyched at the idea of a touchscreen keyboard, however, given how much I write at computers.
My take is that Apple is taking design cues from the iPad when it comes to designing the macbook pro.

For example, the new MBP lacks MagSafe because the envisioned use case is that with the improved battery life of these laptops, you shouldn't need to camp near a power outlet 24/7. In this context, MagSafe is deemed a crutch for the fact that laptops then could only get so much battery life. You should be free to use your laptop anywhere you wish, just like an iPad, and charge your device only at the end of the day (say while you sleep).

Meanwhile, the butterfly keyboards and touchbar seem to draw inspiration from the onscreen virtual keyboard of the iPad. The end goal could be typing on a glass surface that is able to adjust itself on the fly to suit your current workflow. No physical keyboard, no chance of keyboard failure.

And I stress that I am not saying whether what Apple has done here is right or wrong, just ruminating on their rationale for having done the things they did with regards to the MBP redesign.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrUNIMOG and pier
That is literally millions of MacBooks that will require service on their keyboards. That's unacceptable in my opinion. I am so glad I don't need a laptop for work anymore.
All I was commenting on is the statement from Apple about a small percent of laptops being affected is correct. Some people might object to 11-12% being labeled "small" but that's opinion because there is no standard for what percent constitutes small, medium, large in a case like this.

I'm not defending the keyboard design or reliability.
 
Somehow, I doubt it.

Considering that the 2017 keyboard is considered more reliable than the 2016 one, it's clear that Apple is continuing to work on refining its design (of which there is another patent). As such, it stands to reason that the 2018 macbook pro will either sport a further-improved version of this butterfly design which dramatically cuts down on the failure rate, or Apple might decide to (eventually) do away with physical laptop keyboard and go full-touchbar keyboard.

Either way, I don't see Apple walking back on this. The 2016 MBP form factor is likely here to stay (more or less) for the next couple of years.
Apple has patented a butterfly keyboard with the ability to block dust from entering the mechanism. I think we’ll see butterfly keyboard release 3 soon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yvan256
Both my wife and myself have this issue. I think it's because they are very susceptible to dust/debris getting stuck under the keys.

I actually like the butterfly keys, but they need to be made more robust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Apple Fritter
Apple won’t go back to the old design, they have a roadmap and as we know they stick to it,

So they have a roadmap that says no meaningful mac updates for years at a time? A roadmap that has horribly fragmented their macbook, iPad, and iPhone product lines?

Looking at the current state of Apple, there cannot possibly be any roadmap.

And perhaps more to the point, even if there was a roadmap, sticking to it blindly and ignoring real engineering issues and market issues is a recipe for bankruptcy. Even Timmy isn't stupid enough to stick to a roadmap for the sake of following a roadmap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: throAU
I think you are right here. I also believe they are moving towards a full touchscreen keyboard (probably within 5 years at the earliest)...likely with haptic feedback to approximate keystrokes. I would be really excited at a keyboard with real keys that have e-ink or oled displays in them, but I think that would be too complicated for Apple's taste. I'm not super psyched at the idea of a touchscreen keyboard, however, given how much I write with computers.
I think going with a virtual, touchscreen keyboard to replace the physical on a laptop would be a mistake. The prime reason for using a laptop form factor over a tablet is for physical keyboard and touchpad interfaces, which lend to better productivity with multitasking and faster typing. I can see the usefulness of a convertible, for use as either a tablet or laptop. Using something such as the "magic" keyboard with my iPad improves my typing speed, but I still miss mouse/touchpad functionality with many windows available simultaneously . Perhaps with the future development of VR a new computing technology might find a way to supersede and replace the traditional laptop/desktop with keyboard/mouse - that technology has been around since the late 70s - but it remains to be seen what that design might entail. As with phone jacks, though old technology, the physical keyboard/mouse have lasted so long because they remain a superior interface for productivity.
 
Last edited:
2014 MBP - 2120 service requests, of which 118 were for keyboard issues
2015 MBP - 1904 service requests, of which 114 were for keyboard issues
2016 MBP - 1402 service requests, of which 165 were for keyboard issues
2017 MBP - 1161 service requests, of which 94 were for keyboard issues

Those numbers don't really demonstrate anything of note regardless of whether they're higher/lower. It's obviously a tiny, tiny sample from overall sales. 2,000 out of multi-millions sold is meaningless.
 
Last time I checked, "nothing" implies 0%. And please tell me, what exactly is "my narrative"?
Simple actually, nothing means for many people who haven’t had issues with their, fill in the blank, product there is nothing wrong. A common theme on the internet is to ignore that larger population and focus on whatever little corner they frequent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrUNIMOG
Anecdotally, the 2017 MBP seems to be seeing fewer keyboard issues than the 2016 MBP (8% vs 11%), but still higher than the older macbook keyboards at around 6%. Note that this is calculated by dividing the number of laptops turned in for keyboard issues divided by the total number of MacBooks submitted for problems overall. It's not saying that 1 in 10 of all newer MBP keyboards are falling apart.

2014 MBP - 2120 service requests, of which 118 were for keyboard issues
2015 MBP - 1904 service requests, of which 114 were for keyboard issues
2016 MBP - 1402 service requests, of which 165 were for keyboard issues
2017 MBP - 1161 service requests, of which 94 were for keyboard issues
How encompassing is this service data? Is it from a single store, is it from the US only, worldwide. I might have missed it, but I couldn't tell from the article regarding the scope of the data
 
Those numbers don't really demonstrate anything of note regardless of whether they're higher/lower. It's obviously a tiny, tiny sample from overall sales. 2,000 out of multi-millions sold is meaningless.
Unless you are a member of the "lucky" 2000. If people have legitimate complaints with their hardware, to reply "my <whatever> works just fine" does nothing to address the issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yvan256
How encompassing is this service data? Is it from a single store, is it from the US only, worldwide. I might have missed it, but I couldn't tell from the article regarding the scope of the data

This is what appleinsider had to say.

All data has been collected from assorted Apple Genius Bars in the U.S. that we have been working with for several years, as well as Apple-authorized third-party repair shops.

That’s all I can gather from their writeup.
 
I have never thought of Macstories as being critical of anything. Their whole stick is that the face of macstories loves his iPad and has a wealth of experience getting work done on it, and people frequent it when they want to know more about iPad productivity and apps. But by and large, they seem to stick with reporting facts and recommending new apps while staying away from making any sort of commentary.

Good point. I guess they say 'it would be great if the iPad/iOS did...' which is different from being being critical (in the negative sense).

So I stand corrected!
 
Simple actually, nothing means for many people who haven’t had issues with their, fill in the blank, product there is nothing wrong. A common theme on the internet is to ignore that larger population and focus on whatever little corner they frequent.
Isn't that how it should be? Focusing on hardware problems generally entails paying considerable attention to folks experiencing the problems. That's how it can eventually be determined whether the complaints are well founded.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6
That’s all I can gather from their writeup.
So we really don't know if they had a sufficient population to make proper statistical model. I'm not disputing the numbers, or the accuracy but I am trying to determine how accurate those numbers are
 
So they have a roadmap that says no meaningful mac updates for years at a time? A roadmap that has horribly fragmented their macbook, iPad, and iPhone product lines?

Looking at the current state of Apple, there cannot possibly be any roadmap.

And perhaps more to the point, even if there was a roadmap, sticking to it blindly and ignoring real engineering issues and market issues is a recipe for bankruptcy. Even Timmy isn't stupid enough to stick to a roadmap for the sake of following a roadmap.

If you look at their history you would already know the answer to that, before the 2016 update the MacBook Pro was last updated in 2012 and so on, Apple typically redesign every 4 years. There will not be a redesigned MacBook Pro until 2020 in my opinion.

Yes the new keyboard have some failures but as I mentioned Apple themselves have said "small percentage" they will not go back to an older design because of this.

I don’t know where you get the fragmentation of the iPhone, iPad and so on from.

Nothing has ever been 100% perfect, there were issues under Steve Jobs, remember the iPhone 4? Of course they have a roadmap why do you think they have added things to the MacBook Pro like the Touch Bar? WWDC of bringing iOS apps to the Mac, it’s all a part of said roadmap.
 
I get "sticky key" on my 2017 MBP 13" from time to time. But nothing so far that isn't easily resolved by blowing a little Air Duster into the keyboard. It's annoying to have to do that, but I can't see how getting it serviced will improve things unless they'll replace the keyboard with an improved design.

I guess this is for keyboards that have permanently busted keys, that can't be resolved with the air duster technique.
 
For those of you saying Apple is heading towards making a touch screen keyboard for the MacBook Pros in the future, why do you think that? I genuinely cannot see any benefit or reason to go that way. Higher cost, worse battery life, more difficult to use... what would be the point?
 
I'm guessing Apple's new "dust proof" keyboard patent is off the drawing board and in production, and that's why they went ahead and made this keyboard repair announcement...because they finally have a viable repair option in place to help reverse all the keyboard issues being reported over the last three years. Guessing we'll see the new keyboard here pretty soon when the 2018 computers are finally released. On the outside, I'm sure it's exactly the same as the old keyboard with all the updates/modifications taking place under the surface.
 
  • Like
Reactions: radiologyman
Isn't that how it should be? Focusing on hardware problems generally entails paying considerable attention to folks experiencing the problems. That's how it can eventually be determined whether the complaints are well founded.
That’s another discussion about process. I’m talking about the difference between posting my machine has a problem , who else has it and what did the manufacturer do or not to fix it and MY GOD all MacBook Pros 2016, 2017 are junk and never buy one. Oh by the way this would have never happened with SJ. One is as you posted, one is hysterical overstatement that generates clicks and continues the game of telephone. Meanwhile the majority of owners go about their day and the forums tend to spiral into this either you’re In the know about the “truth” or stupid sheep.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aevan and artfossil
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.