Apple's program isn't specific to "failed" keyboards. It's for literally any type of service, minor to major.
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Apple Launches Repair Program for Faulty MacBook and MacBook Pro Keyboards
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Apple's program isn't specific to "failed" keyboards. It's for literally any type of service, minor to major.
Is my 2012 MBPr chopped liver? Why won't Apple spray my keyboard with compressed air for free?
Yes, but this isn't necessarily the case anymore - time has moved on, and not in a good direction for Apple QC and product design.
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And as even more expected, a part of MacRumors will find a way to justify everything Apple does in design, pricing, and customer support/neglect. What people are saying is that Apple took too long to admit a faulty design and take steps to make amends, and that the free repair/keyboard replacement generally involves providing a new faulty keyboard to replace the old one. Seems fair.
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No, now they design faulty, overpriced laptops - they still call them MacBook Whatevers, and Mac Pros and Minis haven't had changes in half a decade. I have a 12 year old MbP which still runs, has a full set of useful ports, magsafe, and a keyboard that is as responsive and flawless as it was when new. Wonder what the current crop will be like by 2029?They still design macs?
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To be honest, I already consider 2-3% of all 2017 MBPs having problematic keyboards to be a very high number. Apple sold 4.1 million Macs last quarter. Assuming 70% were Macs, thats 2.8 million. 3% of that is 80000, which is a lot to me.
The macbook keyboard is not easy to replace at all. If they were failing left and right, it would seem that simply servicing them would have wiped out all of Apple's profits for the Mac for that quarter alone!
I have continued to do some reading on the issue. The difficulty in getting a clearer picture of the overall problem is that we don't know how many macbook pros were sold.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models
Anecdotally, the 2017 MBP seems to be seeing fewer keyboard issues than the 2016 MBP (8% vs 11%), but still higher than the older macbook keyboards at around 6%. Note that this is calculated by dividing the number of laptops turned in for keyboard issues divided by the total number of MacBooks submitted for problems overall. It's not saying that 1 in 10 of all newer MBP keyboards are falling apart.
2014 MBP - 2120 service requests, of which 118 were for keyboard issues
2015 MBP - 1904 service requests, of which 114 were for keyboard issues
2016 MBP - 1402 service requests, of which 165 were for keyboard issues
2017 MBP - 1161 service requests, of which 94 were for keyboard issues
The interesting takeaway is that the 2016 and 2017 MBPs actually seem more durable and reliable, given that fewer were turned in for servicing, but the keyboard is clearly problematic as more were returned for a 2nd or even third servicing.
I admit I have no idea what an acceptable % of hardware failure is. Anything more than 5% honestly feels unacceptable to me, but I could be mistaken.
Your thoughts?
So for Apple Refurbs, would it four years from the date of the refurb purchase, or four years from the original purchase?
Probably the former, but this might alter my plan to buy a refurb when the 2018s come out and the price on the 2017s drop.
Then again, my current MBP is 8 years old, so I would hate to think I have a ticking time omg after 4.
Probably the former, but this might alter my plan to buy a refurb when the 2018s come out and the price on the 2017s drop.
Then again, my current MBP is 8 years old, so I would hate to think I have a ticking time omg after 4.
Maybe now we understand better why we didn't got an update of MB and MBP up to now - they have to rework keyboard technology.
Maybe they throw out this advertising gag: "butterfly mechanism" - in between in its second generation and nevertheless to sensitive for failure...
Also the new flat keyboards (with Macs) were not that good (they came out same time as first gen. in MB and MBP:
we had a lot of quality problems with lacking sometimes one or two letters in between a text and were sure finger tip was o.k. (this could also be a bluetooth failure of keyboard and connection to Mac - we couldn't clear that finally)
Maybe they throw out this advertising gag: "butterfly mechanism" - in between in its second generation and nevertheless to sensitive for failure...
Also the new flat keyboards (with Macs) were not that good (they came out same time as first gen. in MB and MBP:
we had a lot of quality problems with lacking sometimes one or two letters in between a text and were sure finger tip was o.k. (this could also be a bluetooth failure of keyboard and connection to Mac - we couldn't clear that finally)
Well in all the GPU repair programs, they kept replacing the failed board with another that was expected to fail in due course. They kept doing it until the repair window was closed. So not sure if we should be happy about this cause Apple could be pulling the same dirty trick as history has shown
And Apple is now reimbursing those that paid for an out-of-warranty repair. From an engineering/design standpoint, it sometimes takes time and research to determine whether or not you have a problem that is caused by a design.
I advise folks to take the things you hear in forums with a grain of salt. Forums are great places for discussions and exchange of ideas, but they are often not an accurate portrayal of things as a whole. As an example, you say that people have been struggling with this keyboard issue for 3 years, yet the second generation keyboard on the current MBP has not even been out for 2 years yet. It has only been in the public’s hands for 17 months, a far cry from “3 years”. As you can see, things read in a forum should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apple is making good on an issue that they have now confirmed to be an actual issue. I stand by my statement, that is good customer service.
Just to remind you, I never said this issue is acceptible and we should just be happy about it - however, now that they did do the right thing, I don’t see a reason to be negative about it. And when I had issues, I didn’t accept their half fix of a few replaced keys and asked for a full top replacement, an expensive repair straight from Apple’s wallet.
Many companies never give in to pressure and just as it is justified to expect the best from companies like Apple, I also think credit should be given where credit’s due. This is a good decision, they are also refunding previous repairs - and hopefuly they improved the reliability further (I doubt they want 4 years of expansive replacements in great numbers) - so, in the end, I feel happy with their response.
Same as the battery thing: I am glad people mounted pressure on them forcing them to lower battery replacement cost on iPhones. I hope people pressure them further so that this price remains after 2018 as well.
All this is good. But being so negative even when they do something like this is just being an @$$
In short: keep the pressure, give credit where due, buy what you like and don’t call other forum members pejorative names. That is all I expect.
I would say that more than usual (ie before 2016) have had keyboard issues, I don’t dispute that at all, however I don’t think the keyboard itself (ie less travel and bigger keys) is a bad thing, from playing around in the Apple store and using a friends 2016 MacBook Pro for the majority of the day I quite like how the new keys feel.
I do wonder if Apple are redesigning the keyboard and ironing out the current issues and that’s partly what’s causing the delays with this years Macbook and MacBook Pro updates. Maybe the new ones for this year will be less prone to failing.
We don’t know the exact figures of the MacBook and or MacBook Pro but Apple have said in the past that the majority of Mac sales are from the MacBook Pro, so is it safe to assume that the failure rate is in fact "a small number" it really would depend on how many people are sending in their MacBook’s and MacBook Pros for repair.
Is it the case, then, that Apple releases their products without having taken the time to ensure the products weren't plagued with systemic design flaws? Were we just lucky in the past that Apple put out well-designed and fully functional products that held up well over time? I'd be curious to know how or if Apple tests new products before they are released. For a reputed high quality laptop, I would have thought a keyboard design flaw would have been detected before releasing it to the public. Apparently, I thought wrong, and Apple uses its customers to detect flawed hardware designs. It is curious, in the case of car manufacturers, that when a faulty model is produced and later subject to recall, you don't hear affected customers bragging about great customer service on the part of the company issuing the recall. The customer generally wants to know why the flawed car was released in the first place.
Finger injury? I use my Mac every day for writing at long periods (hours at a time) and I have to say that I’ve never had or heard of any writer that has gotten a “finger injury” from a keyboard.
Granted I don’t own one of the new Macbook’s or MacBook Pros (I’m waiting for the new updates before getting one) but I have tried them out in the Apple store and even with a friends 2016 MacBook Pro and they do seem a lot more accutrate when typing at a speed which I do regularly. Each to their own I guess
I think the grey concave keys of the 2006-2008 Mabook Pro and the 2003-2006 Powerbook G4 keyboard was the best laptop keyboard. They were smooth and my fingers found each key perfectly.
Yes...it's hard to quantify without a fair estimation of the numbers.
The suggestion that they are more durable must take into consideration the context...One would expect newer machines to be more durable than older machines and this survey of 2014-2017 shows that...fewer service requests (which relate to any issue) the younger the machine.
I think you need more data to argue that the 2016-17 are fundamentally more durable (outside the bounds of just being younger devices)...It would be helpful in that regard if there WASNT a keyboard issue inflating the service requests and you could more accurately see the difference between years...we'd also need the numbers over 2-3 years for each device.
Now, I don't think you have this problem, but that guy gnipgnop (or whatever his name is) seems like he/she doesn't understand the term failure rate. "Failure rate is the frequency with which an engineered system or component fails expressed in units of failure per time" (Wikipedia). Thus, while failure sounds bad...like the laptop exploded or something..."sticky" keys fit the definition of failure, given that keys aren't engineered to be sticky. I'd argue that there are plenty of things that happen that relate to true failure rate that aren't expressed by the numbers in the article...those only relate to actual service calls (some percentage of hardware failures can be resolved by users...by ignoring a problem until it's resolved somehow or using compressed air or prying something up with a screwdriver or whatever).
So, basically, what the article is saying regarding these keyboards is that they tend to fail earlier than others. This means that the 2016 numbers indicate that it's not just bad that it had a higher number of service requests related to the keyboard than the 2014 model, but that it as a 2 year old machine has more service requests compared to a 4 year old machine.
I think if you are trying to determine an acceptable failure rate, it depends on the relevance of the component to the entire system and how it is used in the real world...If a window starts to crack on your car, you might be a little less concerned than if your brakes stop working. On the other hand, if a tail light stops working you might be very worried given that the police could stop you. Maybe 3 years after I got it, my 2012 retina MBP had a few dead pixels on the screen...I don't like it, but to me that is acceptable, given the age of the machine. I can still use it without losing functionality. As someone who wants an upgrade currently, however, I would not be cool with an increased risk of a faulty keyboard...not only is the keyboard fundamental to input for the device, I'm a university instructor and therefore writing is central to my profession. I think "acceptable failure rate" on the user end relates to how we use something, how durable we expect it to be, and how old it is. Like you, I have no idea how Apple computes such things...but they seem to bill themselves as caring more about user experience, quality, and the like than their competitors and that's part of the reason we expect to pay more for their products.
It can be complex to calculate a percent. One needs to factor hours of use in the target failure rate. What drives repair programs such as this is failure rates well below the designed use life. Two different 2016 MBP’s can have vastly different hours of use. It’s unfortunate today’s Apple requires such kick in the a** to stand behind a problem these days. Dan is no Bob when it comes to leading the Engineering Team. Although I do acknowledge his team is under horrid cost cutting programs driven by Tim. This becomes clearer every year that goes by.
Those are great keyboards - I can still say "are" rather than "were", as my 2006 MbP's keyboard is still a delight.I think the grey concave keys of the 2006-2008 Mabook Pro and the 2003-2006 Powerbook G4 keyboard was the best laptop keyboard. They were smooth and my fingers found each key perfectly.
And tbh, as much as we a pay for these things it should be that way. Not replace every few or 4yrs.
If Apple needs to release hardware to the public before knowing there may be design flaws, perhaps hardware releases should be done in the same manner as OS software - release "beta" versions of new hardware designs at a reduced price (let the buyer beware) to folks willing to take a chance and test them, then iron out any discovered issues before releasing the fully supported product. That likely can't happen due to the rapidity of hardware design changes in the industry.
zorinlynx wrote in #111 above:
"The pre-2015 keyboards are practically bulletproof. I've never had any issues with the machines I've used unless the keyboard is physically damaged through extreme mistreatment."
Correction:
Pre-2016 keyboards.
The 2015 MacBook Pro models have the old-style, non-failing keyboard.
I've been predicting such a "repair program" here at MacRumors for a while now.
Except -- I made the guess that the laptops would be covered for a period of 5 years from the original purchase date -- Apple has made that only four.
It took them long enough. The keyboards were having problems "right out of the gate" after the October 2016 launch of the new models.
Make no mistake -- Apple WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS if not for the three pending "KeyGate™" lawsuits before them. Perhaps they're trying to "head the plaintiffs off at the pass" so that the judges involved will throw out the lawsuits as moot. Whether this strategy works remains to be seen.
The 2016-2017 keyboards represent a "design nadir" for Apple.
EVERYTHING about them is wrong from a user standpoint.
They are an ergonomic failure (little movement or feedback) and the execution doesn't hold up to the normal rigors and wear-and-tear of day-to-day usage.
The sole reason for this "re-design" was to reduce -thickness- to "make it thinner".
I've made another prediction for some time now here at MacRumors:
That being, that Apple will "go back" to the old keyboard design, and re-work it so that the keys more resemble those of the new design.
And then install that into a re-designed MacBook Pro.
We'll have to wait and see about that.
But it makes no sense to keep using the current, failed design.
To do so only guarantees an increasing number of laptops that will keep coming back at them for free topcase replacements, which must cost them A LOT of money.
Will Apple finally wise up about the "thinness craze" ...?
We'll see....
"The pre-2015 keyboards are practically bulletproof. I've never had any issues with the machines I've used unless the keyboard is physically damaged through extreme mistreatment."
Correction:
Pre-2016 keyboards.
The 2015 MacBook Pro models have the old-style, non-failing keyboard.
I've been predicting such a "repair program" here at MacRumors for a while now.
Except -- I made the guess that the laptops would be covered for a period of 5 years from the original purchase date -- Apple has made that only four.
It took them long enough. The keyboards were having problems "right out of the gate" after the October 2016 launch of the new models.
Make no mistake -- Apple WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS if not for the three pending "KeyGate™" lawsuits before them. Perhaps they're trying to "head the plaintiffs off at the pass" so that the judges involved will throw out the lawsuits as moot. Whether this strategy works remains to be seen.
The 2016-2017 keyboards represent a "design nadir" for Apple.
EVERYTHING about them is wrong from a user standpoint.
They are an ergonomic failure (little movement or feedback) and the execution doesn't hold up to the normal rigors and wear-and-tear of day-to-day usage.
The sole reason for this "re-design" was to reduce -thickness- to "make it thinner".
I've made another prediction for some time now here at MacRumors:
That being, that Apple will "go back" to the old keyboard design, and re-work it so that the keys more resemble those of the new design.
And then install that into a re-designed MacBook Pro.
We'll have to wait and see about that.
But it makes no sense to keep using the current, failed design.
To do so only guarantees an increasing number of laptops that will keep coming back at them for free topcase replacements, which must cost them A LOT of money.
Will Apple finally wise up about the "thinness craze" ...?
We'll see....
Apple won’t go back to the old design, they have a roadmap and as we know they stick to it, they have already said the failures are in a "small number" so to them they don’t see it as a major problem, my guess is they will fix the issues but keep the current design. Personally I don’t mind the less travel and the feel of the new keyboards as long as they fix the current failure rates which they will be doing, I agree that they have known about this for a while and probably have something in place.
A redesign of the MacBook Pro I don’t think will happen before 2020.
Warranties should be based on an item’s depreciation value. If your used laptop’s market value is $1,500 when you need a repair, Apple should be obligated to provide up to $1,500 of repair service and parts. If later, the laptop requires another repair, and is worth $700, Apple should provide $700 worth of coverage.
This approach better insures everyone receives the same full value of their investment.
Note: This method is for manufacturing defects, not accidental damage. Accidents shouldn’t be covered by any warranty . That’s what insurance coverage is for—something Apple should sell instead of their contrived AppleCare warranty.
This approach better insures everyone receives the same full value of their investment.
Note: This method is for manufacturing defects, not accidental damage. Accidents shouldn’t be covered by any warranty . That’s what insurance coverage is for—something Apple should sell instead of their contrived AppleCare warranty.
Good point - I would hope this repair program is different. Time will tell, Of course, I'm not sure I'm willing to wait and see and/or roll the dice
Somehow, I doubt it.
Considering that the 2017 keyboard is considered more reliable than the 2016 one, it's clear that Apple is continuing to work on refining its design (of which there is another patent). As such, it stands to reason that the 2018 macbook pro will either sport a further-improved version of this butterfly design which dramatically cuts down on the failure rate, or Apple might decide to (eventually) do away with physical laptop keyboard and go full-touchbar keyboard.
Either way, I don't see Apple walking back on this. The 2016 MBP form factor is likely here to stay (more or less) for the next couple of years.
Apple have included the 2015 MacBooks in the programme so clearly it’s across all the butterfly keyboards - the 2015 MB came out in April 2015 so it has indeed been in excess of 3 years now.