Apple Lays Off 600+ Employees After Canceling Car Project

[Surf Monkey]

Anyone who knows engineering knows that this was bound to happen. Apple sucks at engineering and inventing. That’s what their suppliers do.

Apple does fine at engineering and inventing. They have reams of patents to prove it.

Apple is great at marketing and branding.

Well, I’m not so sure that’s the case anymore. Under Jobs the advertising was a central focus. Jobs was very hands on with the creative. Under Cook it looks like he just does whatever the ad agency thinks is best. When’s the last time an Apple ad really stood out? A long time. How long has it been since Apple released genuinely cringe worthy marketing content? A week? Two?

They use their enormous sales volume to get the best discounts from suppliers, but they always fail at hard, intellectual stuff.

That’s how Tim Cook runs it. Making bank off of the intellectual property that Jobs and his team shepherded. Cook’s Apple fails because all he really cares about is sales volume.

 

[macfacts]

600 people is a lot. And a 2000 person team. All for it to be scrapped?

With a team that large you’d think they would have really been able to create something amazing.

9 women can't make a baby in one month.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Actually, as in investor, it’s mostly about volatility. You want an investment that isn’t going to tank on market open and take you with it.

Tesla is bubble material. Everyone is talking about growth. There is lots of hype. Delivery is uncertain. But no one seems to notice that the gains have tapered off. But they are hanging on the corporate mouthpiece of Musk which is quite frankly like trusting a crackie on the streets of SF. It’s flatlining because the early investors pulled out ages ago after riding the hype leaving the hype and bubble investors to sink the losses which are coming. That exit included me.

The reality is that Tesla and other EV companies do not have a sustainable market in the current financial climate or their existing sales models. When the rich people have bought their share of cars the market is dead as there is no visible long term market for the vehicles. Even the traditional corporate and rental market doesn’t work with them. I think Apple worked that out and pulled out.

AI is the next bubble. I’ve dumped my investments there and put them back in low risk ETFs waiting for the next one. I made an absolute killing on the EV and AI hype. The reason you hear about this stuff is because there are bastards like me out there who want you to pump the stock value not because the thing is ultimately viable but because the hype generates cash.

Buy the rumor. Sell the reality. Basic tech investment strategy.

 

[russell_314]

Tesla is getting hit pretty hard by horrible publicity and extremely negative perceptions of its CEO. That has suppressed their potential customer base and will likely lead to the entire company failing… unless Musk divests himself or sells it. Because he’s not going to suddenly become rational and effective.

Elon Musk’s reputation is falling — and it’s taking Tesla with it

Musk’s behavior may be contributing to Tesla’s declining sales.

www.theverge.com

That’s a great opinion piece from the verge, and what a wonderful publication they are (/s), but it’s really irrelevant when it comes to Tesla. The facts are electric vehicles in general are suffering from a downturn and Tesla is not immune from that. You can buy a Mustang Mach-E for thousands under MSRP now. There is no non-opinionated factual evidence that Tesla has any sort of impending doom. I know a lot of people would love to see that happen, but I think they’re going to be disappointed. Short of Musk angering the US government and getting some retaliation from that, I don’t think it will happen.

I’m going to stay away from the topic of peoples feelings about Musk because that would be in the realm of politics. I think it would have to be in the political form section and is probably not allowed. I try not to anger the mods 🤣

 

[AlmightyKang]

9 women can't make a baby in one month.

Also worth noting that fresh engineering teams can’t make 1 baby in 9 months. You’re talking 18 months as you find that only half the people know what a baby is, two people leave the team because the 8 month baby company get hype on the market and they went to work for them, you need to include the 2 months of DEI training and personality profiling sessions, one guy spends 8 months making a robot and not a baby and two project managers misreport it so they don’t get fired.

Source: ex engineering manager.

 

[High IQ Person]

Apple does fine at engineering and inventing. They have reams of patents to prove it.



Well, I’m not so sure that’s the case anymore. Under Jobs the advertising was a central focus. Jobs was very hands on with the creative. Under Cook it looks like he just does whatever the ad agency thinks is best. When’s the last time an Apple ad really stood out? A long time. How long has it been since Apple released genuinely cringe worthy marketing content? A week? Two?



That’s how Tim Cook runs it. Making bank off of the intellectual property that Jobs and his team shepherded. Cook’s Apple fails because all he really cares about is sales volume.

Apple’s patents are mostly BS and not worth the paper they’re written on.

Their suppliers do the hard work. Apple just uses sales volume to get good discounts. Apple tried to do some inventing and engineering with the car and microLED and got smacked in the face. Engineering a display is quite a bit harder than making pretty rectangles. Apple realized they can’t compete with their suppliers intellectually so they’re going back to their strength - marketing and branding.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Duplicate

 

[russell_314]

Actually, as in investor, it’s mostly about volatility. You want an investment that isn’t going to tank on market open and take you with it.

Tesla is bubble material. Everyone is talking about growth. There is lots of hype. Delivery is uncertain. But no one seems to notice that the gains have tapered off. But they are hanging on the corporate mouthpiece of Musk which is quite frankly like trusting a crackie on the streets of SF. It’s flatlining because the early investors pulled out ages ago after riding the hype leaving the hype and bubble investors to sink the losses which are coming. That exit included me.

The reality is that Tesla and other EV companies do not have a sustainable market in the current financial climate or their existing sales models. When the rich people have bought their share of cars the market is dead as there is no visible long term market for the vehicles. Even the traditional corporate and rental market doesn’t work with them. I think Apple worked that out and pulled out.

AI is the next bubble. I’ve dumped my investments there and put them back in low risk ETFs waiting for the next one. I made an absolute killing on the EV and AI hype. The reason you hear about this stuff is because there are bastards like me out there who want you to pump the stock value not because the thing is ultimately viable but because the hype generates cash.

I disagree that the electric vehicle market is hype or just something for rich people. I am far from rich and just purchased a Tesla. Sure I’m not living out of a cardboard box but I think there’s still a market for non-homeless people looking for cars.

The electric vehicle market is in its infancy right now. Just like when gasoline powered cars came out there is very little infrastructure and it’s going to take a while for things to get going. Also like when gasoline powered cars came out there were people with similar attitudes to those complaining about electric vehicles. Those gasoline powered cars are dangerous to horse carriages. Some people don’t like change and it can be scary.

 

[Surf Monkey]

That’s a great opinion piece from the verge, and what a wonderful publication they are (/s),

The Verge isn’t the only source reporting on it and trashing the source isn’t a rebuttal.

How much is Elon Musk to blame for Tesla sales slip?

Investor points finger at CEO’s antics on X, but analysts say ‘train wreck’ quarter more down to problems in China and with EV demand

www.theguardian.com

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/would-be-tesla-buyers-snub-company-musks-reputation-dips-2024-04-01/

I’m going to stay away from the topic of peoples feelings about Musk because that would be in the realm of politics. I think it would have to be in the political form section and is probably not allowed. I try not to anger the mods 🤣

This is not a political discussion. It’s disingenuous of you to try and claim it is. I haven’t made any reference to Musk’s specific political stances because they’re not directly relevant. The relevant point is that he has become erratic and a major liability to the company in terms of publicity at a critical moment for Tesla.

 

[russell_314]

Uh…

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/would-be-tesla-buyers-snub-company-musks-reputation-dips-2024-04-01/

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-stock-elon-musk-antisemitic-comments-0563c215

Etc.

This is not a political discussion. I’ve intentionally avoided content that addresses Musk’s specific political statements. They aren’t directly relevant. The relevant thing is that this company has a CEO who is a loose canon and who’s public image had been a key part of the company’s image and success. His erratic behavior is a specific and real data point when discussing the potential success or failure of his company.

And no, the Verge didn’t make that up out of whole cloth.

OK, I couldn’t read the barons article without a subscription and I’m not going to subscribe to something just to be a silly article.

I could however read the Reuters article and the entire article was about someone’s opinion based on a survey they did. It had nothing based in reality about actual sales of Tesla vehicles, compared to actual sales of other electric vehicles and somehow established a correlation between lower Tesla sales and Elon Musk.

I’m not saying that Elon upsetting a whole bunch of people might not have consequences for Tesla but so far there is nothing to show that. As someone who bought a Tesla, it had no impact on my decision. Right now it seemed to be the best vehicle for the price and had what I wanted.

 

[russell_314]

The Verge isn’t the only source reporting on it and trashing the source isn’t a rebuttal.

How much is Elon Musk to blame for Tesla sales slip?

Investor points finger at CEO’s antics on X, but analysts say ‘train wreck’ quarter more down to problems in China and with EV demand

www.theguardian.com

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/would-be-tesla-buyers-snub-company-musks-reputation-dips-2024-04-01/

This is not a political discussion. It’s disingenuous of you to try and claim it is. I haven’t made any reference to Musk’s specific political stances because they’re not directly relevant. The relevant point is that he has become erratic and a major liability to the company in terms of publicity at a critical moment for Tesla.

I’m not sure why you felt the need to reply twice basically saying the same thing with two different posts.

I feel silly replying to this post because it says the same thing but I guess I will. It’s not about trashing the verge even though that’s fairly easy to do but just saying that there’s no factual evidence to back up what they’re saying. It’s just peoples opinions. When Tesla sells actually drop comparatively to other electric vehicle manufacturers then perhaps you can say it’s because of Elon.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Apple’s patents are mostly BS and not worth the paper they’re written on.

According to who? You?

Their suppliers do the hard work.

Apple’s suppliers build to Apple’s engineering specs.

Apple just uses sales volume to get good discounts.

Every company ever does that.

Apple tried to do some inventing and engineering with the car and microLED and got smacked in the face.

We don’t actually know why those projects failed but much of the reporting suggests lack of focused leadership was key.

Engineering a display is quite a bit harder than making pretty rectangles.

1) No one claimed it wasn’t.

2) Apple does more than “make pretty rectangles.”

Apple realized they can’t compete with their suppliers intellectually so they’re going back to their strength - marketing and branding.

That is a flat out ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I’m not sure why you felt the need to reply twice basically saying the same thing with two different posts.

Problem on my side.

I feel silly replying to this post because it says the same thing but I guess I will. It’s not about trashing the verge even though that’s fairly easy to do but just saying that there’s no factual evidence to back up what they’re saying. It’s just peoples opinions. When Tesla sells actually drop comparatively to other electric vehicle manufacturers then perhaps you can say it’s because of Elon.

Feel free to ignore it then. It wasn’t personal. Browser issue. It appeared that the first one never posted. Safari failed.

 

[russell_314]

Problem on my side.



Feel free to ignore it then. It wasn’t personal. Browser issue. It appeared that the first one never posted. Safari failed.

Sorry, I was just confused and maybe it’s too late here. I probably should be sleeping 🤣

Either way, I would love to see some competition for Tesla. I know many people don’t like electric vehicles and that’s cool because everyone has their own things but I feel like it it’s an important part of the future so we need to invest in the technology.

 

[AlmightyKang]

I disagree that the electric vehicle market is hype or just something for rich people. I am far from rich and just purchased a Tesla. Sure I’m not living out of a cardboard box but I think there’s still a market for non-homeless people looking for cars.

The electric vehicle market is in its infancy right now. Just like when gasoline powered cars came out there is very little infrastructure and it’s going to take a while for things to get going. Also like when gasoline powered cars came out there were people with similar attitudes to those complaining about electric vehicles. Those gasoline powered cars are dangerous to horse carriages. Some people don’t like change and it can be scary.

I owned a model S P100D for ref. I don’t own a car now. I don’t need one where I am. I have a very nice bicycle though and a lot of money in the bank instead.

This is not about infrastructure or preference or scary EV paranoia but the financial modelling doesn’t work. The MTTF, MTTR and repair costs don’t work. Go find your average car age in your area and do a financial risk assessment of an EV that old versus an ICE that old. That’s what is driving insurance costs up as EV maturity comes into the picture. It’s not a good look and it’s going to get worse as the first wave of vehicles age.

 

[Tagbert]

I know many will disagree but I think EVs are doomed. They are expensive to buy, expensive to repair and can’t get you anywhere outside the city.

I rented a Tesla from Hertz once. It was a terrible experience. The car was absolutely dreadful to drive and operate. No coasting, every adjustment needs to be found in the large annoying screen, and the worst… no easily fill up. We barely made it back to the airport. Needless to say that the mile remaining somehow only gets you about 2/3 of what it claims.

Oh… and once you include all the battery technology and mining required, they aren’t even better for the environment.

Are you assuming that nothing will ever change about EVs and that because you see problems now they can never change? Come on your can’t not see the room for improvement and the massive improvements over the past 10 years.

As for the environmental question you raise, yes, batteries require some mining for the minerals. Once a battery is made, no more mining is required. Also, companies like Redwood are preparing for recycling EV batteries. It’s not an endless cycle of mining more minerals to continue to supply an EV. That is what happens with ICEVs. They have to continue to drill for oil, transport it, chemically process it to produce gasoline, transport that, and then burn it and then start all over again. An EV battery is a one time environmental cost. An ICEV is a never ending source of pollution.

And don’t come back and say that EVs just move the pollution and CO2 to a power plant. That argument has been shown to be wrong too many times already and I don’t have the patience to rehash that topic today.

 

[avz]

9 women can't make a baby in one month.

This is actually a deep meaning of the "protecting the weak(women and children)" virtue/concept.

 

[AlmightyKang]

I know many will disagree but I think EVs are doomed. They are expensive to buy, expensive to repair and can’t get you anywhere outside the city.

I rented a Tesla from Hertz once. It was a terrible experience. The car was absolutely dreadful to drive and operate. No coasting, every adjustment needs to be found in the large annoying screen, and the worst… no easily fill up. We barely made it back to the airport. Needless to say that the mile remaining somehow only gets you about 2/3 of what it claims.

Oh… and once you include all the battery technology and mining required, they aren’t even better for the environment.

Worth noting that Hertz are dumping EVs because they have 4x the overall operating costs and depreciation of ICE vehicles.

I await Tesla stock crash when the market picks up on this early next week and Musk cuts prices to drive volume up again to try and sink the bad news.

 

[russell_314]

I owned a model S P100D for ref. I don’t own a car now. I don’t need one where I am. I have a very nice bicycle though and a lot of money in the bank instead.

This is not about infrastructure or preference or scary EV paranoia but the financial modelling doesn’t work. The MTTF, MTTR and repair costs don’t work. Go find your average car age in your area and do a financial risk assessment of an EV that old versus an ICE that old. That’s what is driving insurance costs up as EV maturity comes into the picture. It’s not a good look.

So you suggest that we stick with our gasoline powered vehicles forever? I agree that the current iteration of electric vehicles has issues but I can’t imagine the early gasoline powered vehicles were without problems as well.

Perhaps the answer is electric bicycles because it does seem a little silly to use a 4000 pound machine to transport a 200 pound human.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

You're simply speculating, Macrumors. Apple is thinning in other skunk works projects, not just the Car, and the Car project has been expanded and downsized several times over the years.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Are you assuming that nothing will ever change about EVs and that because you see problems now they can never change? Come on your can’t not see the room for improvement and the massive improvements over the past 10 years.

As for the environmental question you raise, yes, batteries require some mining for the minerals. Once a battery is made, no more mining is required. Also, companies like Redwood are preparing for recycling EV batteries. It’s not an endless cycle of mining more minerals to continue to supply an EV. That is what happens with ICEVs. They have to continue to drill for oil, transport it, chemically process it to produce gasoline, transport that, and then burn it and then start all over again. An EV battery is a one time environmental cost. An ICEV is a never ending source of pollution.

And don’t come back and say that EVs just move the pollution and CO2 to a power plant. That argument has been shown to be wrong too many times already and I don’t have the patience to rehash that topic today.

Right, but we have to assume that more and more states are moving to cleaner energy. Oregon where I am for example has ended use of coal and has divested the state of any coal investments. Meanwhile the state has removed several hydro plants and moved strongly into wind and solar. Alternate energy sources are continuing to develop so it’s not a static landscape.

And personally, I’m not convinced that ICE is dead. Fossil fuels for ICE? Yes. But lower emissions fuels are a distinct possibility going forward.

 

[High IQ Person]

According to who? You?



Apple’s suppliers build to Apple’s engineering specs.



Every company ever does that.



We don’t actually know why those projects failed but much of the reporting suggests lack of focused leadership was key.



1) No one claimed it wasn’t.

2) Apple does more than “make pretty rectangles.”



That is a flat out ridiculous thing to say.

Any idiot can spout a spec sheet. It’s as hard as spouting a pizza spec sheet. It’s the manufacturing process that’s difficult. Listing specs is just a matter of stressing a manufacturing process.

What do you think is harder? Saying you want a display with 1000+ nits or designing the manufacturing process to get to the 1000+ nits? Spouting off a spec sheet is a brain-dead job.

 

[Surf Monkey]

So you suggest that we stick with our gasoline powered vehicles forever? I agree that the current iteration of electric vehicles has issues but I can’t imagine the early gasoline powered vehicles were without problems as well.

Perhaps the answer is electric bicycles because it does seem a little silly to use a 4000 pound machine to transport a 200 pound human.

Perhaps the answer is trains and mass transit. Somehow the basic idea that everyone needs a car is never questioned. This country is sorely in need of a better public transit grid. Investing in high speed interurban rail and putting federal funds into state level initiatives for light rail, subways and so forth seems like a much better investment than propping up the idea that every single person has to have their own vehicle.

 

[chucker23n1]

Any idiot can spout a spec sheet. It’s as hard as spouting a pizza spec sheet. It’s the manufacturing process that’s difficult. Listing specs is just a matter of stressing a manufacturing process.

Lots of Apple engineering, such as their SoC design, goes well beyond “a spec sheet”.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Any idiot can spout a spec sheet. It’s as hard as spouting a pizza spec sheet. It’s the manufacturing process that’s difficult. Listing specs is just a matter of stressing a manufacturing process.

Your extreme reductionism suggests that you’re not interested in a forthright conversation so I say “good day” to you, sir.