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Having to go outside the Kindle app to buy books to read in the Kindle app is just a poor user experience.

If your applications revenue depends on IAP or in-app-advertising as part of the business model (e.g. Epic's Funny Money), you pay the fee's - No dev should be able to get a free ride and be able to link to an offsite payment gateway for digital products sold via the app.

Amazon obviously decided that the App was the way they wished to distribute their books on a popular platform while sticking to the App Store rules. They had already a big enough market share and budget that they decided using IAP's was more expensive then getting new sales via the app.

**(However the fact that Kindle allows Amazon Signups via the app seems like a grey area)

Kindle, Netflix and others are/were already popular due to Millions spent on lead generation OUTSIDE the App Store and their existing user base. This is something not possible for smaller developers who rely solely on IAP's to push their subscriptions. Signups that would otherwise not be possible without a massive advertising budget.

Essentially you would prefer the Appstore to become a free advertising/lead generating platform which only further benefits the ones with the biggest existing client base or deepest pockets leaving smaller startups out in the cold.
 
Perhaps the issue is the agency model. It didn't sit too well with ebooks either. Perhaps it's time to force a wholesale business model. Apple negotiates a per-download wholesale price and purchases an inventory of digital downloads from the dev. Then Apple can mark up the price, sell at a loss, or give the app away for free. Or even move the entire store to a subscription model and let customers download whatever they want for a monthly or annual fee. Then switch Xcode to a subscription model like MSDN. Of course, that will mean trimming the inventory in the store, no more free-for-all. Other app stores or direct downloads can be allowed, but with the understanding that Apple can not be held at all liable for any side effects from outside apps that haven't been reviewed and vetted by Apple.

This way Apple can decide which developers' apps to carry in the store. It can simply stop purchasing and selling apps it doesn't want anymore - no justifications needed.
This has nothing to do with agency vs wholesale. And, the agency model was not the issue with the ebooks case.

Going wholesale will greatly increase the cost of entry for smaller developers. They would now need to lobby Apple to buy the download credits. The services provided by the App Store aside from the payment processing would no longer apply either. I'm not even sure that accounting laws would allow for many of those services.

Also, the Epics of the world won't like it either as they will have to negotiate quite high wholesale pricing. A single copy of Fortnite may cost $100 at wholesale since Apple already knows that the life of the product (including IAP) will generate quite a large revenue number given the v-bucks today. Now, Apple is the retailer and will sell that copy of Fortnite for $200. So, that currently free-to-download game is is now $150. Epic would never go for that as they can assume (and rightly so) that no one will bay for skins in game when they already paid a bunch for the game.
 
See? That's just the thing. I read your comment, and nothing he said was wrong or all over the place. Yours was though.

Stating "Big companies would use cheap payment providers, but these providers would be simultaneously too expensive for small devs? Huh? Disregarding the illogic, the small devs could continue using the cheaper 1st party solution" -- to which I gave you prime examples of why those are expensive to smaller companies with lower volumes.

Who is saying that the same $99 charge per year would continue without the critical mass they have today? I gave you a short list of 4 very costly things they provide for that fee and a 15-30% cut. Do you think that infrastructure is going to be economical to provide at that nominal cost with less using it? Because that is what is truly illogical to assume.

You fail to note that Epic is in this only for money. It isn't that they don't want to pay 30% of the cut... you can see that in the fact they dropped the price of what was $10 down to $8. A 20% cut. They now have to pay all associated merchant processing fees themselves, so the real number they're clearing is likely very close to what they had previously. What they want is for others to pay them those same fees, which while on paper lower, are far more costly to a small company.
I'm going to try again.
1. The assumption that it would be more expensive for smaller devs to go 3r party is illogical when the goal of the 3rd party processor would be to gain customers. In all likelihood they'd price their services at a rate lower than Apple's to entice devs.

2. Who's to say the $99 fee would continue? IDK, certainly not me. Where you're myopic is insisting on thinking the price would go up. Apple could easily lower or waive the fee to induce devs to continue using their system. It would be easier for Apple to absorb that cost of doing business than a 3rd party processor to subsist on lower profits to beat Apple's pricing.

3. I didn't fail to note anything regarding Epic. I ignored that portion of your comment intentionally. My reply was directly related to ruka.snow's comment which had nothing to do with Epic.

If you're going to continue to make assertions about cost to the smaller devs, provide facts to back it up. You'll quickly find you can't because comparatively speaking you have no idea how the 3rd party services would stack up to Apple's current offerings.
 
I'm not really sure how "better" became part of the conversation because nothing in my comment implies I think having a choice is better. Better would be determined by an evaluation of the services by the dev. Really really not sure how we got to consumers, but hey, I'll adjust.

I have difficulty keeping up with all the parallel discussions happening here, so I tried the topics I though were relevant. Sorry if I was quoting you out of context.


Consumers - Here you conflate consumer payments and vendor payment processing into a single entity: one central account/one central payment processor. This is flawed for a number of reasons. Primarily because those two things are not even remotely related contextually. Consumer payments aren't often one central account either. There can be multiple credit/debit/gift cards associated with a consumer's account. Also, your wrong about 3rd party access to payment data. The 3rd parties the consumer uses to make the payment (banks, credit unions, card companies) have access to that info, as well as access to personal data. Whether or not the payment processor is Apple or another company doesn't change that. Contrary to your claim, consumers would not need to monitor and maintain multiple accounts. Backend processing is not a consumer facing process. It's invisible to them. Consumer would simply continue doing as they always have. Payment process is a vendor/developer facing process.

Well, there are different things to consider here. When I talk of a "single account", I am talking about "shopping account" (by the lack of better term). If I do purchases via Apple, it's Apple who has my name, address, credit card numbers etc. and it's Apple who uses them to carry out payments. The fewer internet accounts exist that have access to my payment information, the safer is my data and the easier it is for me to manage. So I don't really see how your comment applies here.

On the level of actual payments, of course agencies like banks, credit card institutions and other actual financial institutions have access to the data (although services like Apple Pay are challenging them lately). But we are talking about companies that initiate payments as a service — these companies exist at a completely different level and they are much less transparent than say Visa, as they are significantly smaller and subject to far less scrutiny.

Developer - Your assumption that 15% to Apple is cheaper than using 3rd party processor is based on what? Certainly not factual info because there isn't any right now. We 100% agree a large dev could probably process payments cheaper than Apple currently does. Where we disagree is on the assumption that 3rd party processing would have to be more expensive for the small dev. Why assume that? Wouldn't a more likely scenario exist where the 3rd party processor offers cheaper rates than Apple to entice devs to use their payment systems?

Because you are not looking at the entire thing. Payment processing itself is not expensive — the usual rates I've seen are around 3-5%. But the 15% Apple cut does not just cover payment processing. It covers many other things. If a developer chooses to use a different payment processor and in doing that refuses to give Apple a share of their business, why would they be allowed to use all the infrastructure funded by App Store revenues? Hosting, deployment, cloud storage and sync, technical support, new API development, certificate management, push notifications... all this stuff does not come for free! If a significant number of developers decide to use alternative payment processors — which is almost certain given that most of the App Store revenue comes from the few big players — Apple would need to completely change the App Store financing model.

As I wrote before: the beauty of the App Store is that it is financed by success. As an aspiring dev, you get access to one of the best infrastructures in the world — with many sophisticated features — virtually for free (the $99 for the dev program access is basically a joke). What you are talking about is changing this to the old good "pay for what you consume" model, which will wipe out a big chunk of independent devs and make the platform only accessible to a few companies that have money. I don't want to go back to that crap.
 
That would be an interesting court case.
It would be either be rather short or it'd end up protracted enough to get to the Supreme Court. Utilising the judiciary to force a private company to enter into an agreement against it's will with a party in a state whose laws are hostile to that private company, for which said private company is choosing not to provide services that would violate that states law, would be a groundbreaking ruling. If it ended up protracted, Apple would likely request that it not be forced to do business in a state and consequently be compelled to follow it's laws and likely win that temporary relief until the full matter is decided based on the novel nature of the proceeding. Given I'd expect anyone running an App Store of sufficient size (one million downloads in a year) would likely evacuate the state: Google and Apple are out without question, Samsung would likely be out too. Depending on volume, that might also impact on the consoles as well. If Epic Games defines Fortnite as a downloadable app for iOS, presumably it's equivalent on the Xbox or Playstation are also fair game under the law so both Microsoft and Sony might find themselves having to block folk too. You'd be asking the judge that if I can download Fortnite on my phone and cross play to these other devices where I can download Fortnite, how is it not equivalent? Many developers in the state could find itself without access to a number of platforms and the users might find they can't purchase any services on their devices.
 
I'm going to try again.
1. The assumption that it would be more expensive for smaller devs to go 3r party is illogical when the goal of the 3rd party processor would be to gain customers. In all likelihood they'd price their services at a rate lower than Apple's to entice devs.

2. Who's to say the $99 fee would continue? IDK, certainly not me. Where you're myopic is insisting on thinking the price would go up. Apple could easily lower or waive the fee to induce devs to continue using their system. It would be easier for Apple to absorb that cost of doing business than a 3rd party processor to subsist on lower profits to beat Apple's pricing.

3. I didn't fail to note anything regarding Epic. I ignored that portion of your comment intentionally. My reply was directly related to ruka.snow's comment which had nothing to do with Epic.

If you're going to continue to make assertions about cost to the smaller devs, provide facts to back it up. You'll quickly find you can't because comparatively speaking you have no idea how the 3rd party services would stack up to Apple's current offerings.

And I'm going to try again.

1. Epic is brought in here because EPIC IS THE LOBBYIST PUSHING THIS in Arizona. Epic pushes the charges for payment processing onto either A) the developer, or B) the consumer. This is a fact. They do not cover the charges. Anything one might set up outside of a distributor is going to be volume-based pricing. Smaller shop = higher cost.

2. This is what the OP alleged, and the whole not knowing thing is the entire point. However, the overall cost for everyone subsidizes the entire offering, allowing for a global scale rollout for all participants.

3. Again, Epic is the lobbyist pushing the bill. Any discussion on the topic, by default, involves Epic.

As for everything else... Out of their own mouths…
And what Valve says about those transactions:
 
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Apple can just treat third party stores like another app - that must abide buy the same (existing) rules. Anything sold in third party stores are subject to the same Apple tax and limitations approval process, ETC.
 
I show 372 apps installed on my iPhone. Why would I want to visit 372 different sites to download, update and pay for apps?
You basically answered the disadvantages of a third party app store added to the current situation.
Real answer, you only need a "purchased app manager," not more app stores.
 
There’s no reason Apple can’t figure out another more transparent pricing model that could lower costs for everyone.
Apple’s pricing is opaque? I thought it was pretty clear.
Most people are SICK of it.
There it is, folks. The red flag unsubstantiated assertion designed to have the appearance of knowledge. “Most people,” “Almost everyone,” “No one ever,” “99% of the world,” “Virtually no customers...” Translation: “I actually have no idea about these data so I’ll make up something that validates my opinion.” Keep an eye out for all of these. They’re easy to spot. You can clarify them by congujating them around the word “I,” as in “I am SICK of it.”
 
If your applications revenue depends on IAP or in-app-advertising as part of the business model (e.g. Epic's Funny Money), you pay the fee's - No dev should be able to get a free ride and be able to link to an offsite payment gateway for digital products sold via the app.

Amazon obviously decided that the App was the way they wished to distribute their books on a popular platform while sticking to the App Store rules. They had already a big enough market share and budget that they decided using IAP's was more expensive then getting new sales via the app.

**(However the fact that Kindle allows Amazon Signups via the app seems like a grey area)

Kindle, Netflix and others are/were already popular due to Millions spent on lead generation OUTSIDE the App Store and their existing user base. This is something not possible for smaller developers who rely solely on IAP's to push their subscriptions. Signups that would otherwise not be possible without a massive advertising budget.

Essentially you would prefer the Appstore to become a free advertising/lead generating platform which only further benefits the ones with the biggest existing client base or deepest pockets leaving smaller startups out in the cold.
None of this explains why Apple deserves 30% of Amazon’s book sales or why having to buy a book outside the Kindle app is a good user experience (it’s not). The fact that Apple allows the Kindle app without IAP (and Netflix, Spotify etc.) destroys the argument that Apple deserves 30% because iOS is a popular platform and/or Apple is responsible for customer acquisition. Clearly if you’re big enough and popular enough on your own you get special rules because Apple needs you to be on their platform. Again I think it’s entirely reasonable for Apple to follow Google’s model of non-game apps being allowed to offer their own IAP along side Google’s. Doesn’t mean they have to just that they can if they want to. And consumers can choose to stick with Apple’s IAP if they think it’s worth the extra 30% or 15%.
 
None of this explains why Apple deserves 30% of Amazon’s book sales or why having to buy a book outside the Kindle app is a good user experience (it’s not). The fact that Apple allows the Kindle app without IAP (and Netflix, Spotify etc.) destroys the argument that Apple deserves 30% because iOS is a popular platform and/or Apple is responsible for customer acquisition. Clearly if you’re big enough and popular enough on your own you get special rules because Apple needs you to be on their platform. Again I think it’s entirely reasonable for Apple to follow Google’s model of non-game apps being allowed to offer their own IAP along side Google’s. Doesn’t mean they have to just that they can if they want to. And consumers can choose to stick with Apple’s IAP if they think it’s worth the extra 30% or 15%.
If you want a good customer experience of buying items inside the app - they can make it happen by paying the store fees.

The services mentioned have decided that it's not their business model. Fortnight and other freemium games could have perhaps could have done the same kind of thing but going out-of-app to buy more funny money ? Their business model pretty much relies on instant IAP's.

The App Store should not turn into a free advertising platform which is what you sound like you want it to be.

Google's business Model, first and foremost relies on harvesting / selling user data and advertising. Allowing third party payment solutions is small change to them - so no Apple should not follow that model.
 
None of this explains why Apple deserves 30% of Amazon’s book sales or why having to buy a book outside the Kindle app is a good user experience (it’s not). The fact that Apple allows the Kindle app without IAP (and Netflix, Spotify etc.) destroys the argument that Apple deserves 30% because iOS is a popular platform and/or Apple is responsible for customer acquisition. Clearly if you’re big enough and popular enough on your own you get special rules because Apple needs you to be on their platform. Again I think it’s entirely reasonable for Apple to follow Google’s model of non-game apps being allowed to offer their own IAP along side Google’s. Doesn’t mean they have to just that they can if they want to. And consumers can choose to stick with Apple’s IAP if they think it’s worth the extra 30% or 15%.
Apple doesn't deserve anything...it's their platform their rules. Now being that the government can arbitrarily and capriciously regulate an h ertofore unregulated industry, they are entitled to get what the going rate is as long as they are not running afoul of some other regulations.
 
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Apple doesn't deserve anything...it's their platform their rules. Now being that the government can arbitrarily and capriciously regulate an h ertofore unregulated industry, they are entitled to get what the going rate is as long as they are not running afoul of some other regulations.
Book publishers and musicians are free to sell outside of Amazon, Apple Music and Spotify if they feel they are paying too much.
 
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If you want a good customer experience of buying items inside the app - they can make it happen by paying the store fees.

The services mentioned have decided that it's not their business model. Fortnight and other freemium games could have perhaps could have done the same kind of thing but going out-of-app to buy more funny money ? Their business model pretty much relies on instant IAP's.

The App Store should not turn into a free advertising platform which is what you sound like you want it to be.

Google's business Model, first and foremost relies on harvesting / selling user data and advertising. Allowing third party payment solutions is small change to them - so no Apple should not follow that model.

The falsest of false dichotomies
 
I'm not really sure how "better" became part of the conversation because nothing in my comment implies I think having a choice is better. Better would be determined by an evaluation of the services by the dev. Really really not sure how we got to consumers, but hey, I'll adjust. I take issue with almost all of your arguments because the assumptions you've made don't stand scrutiny.

Consumers - Here you conflate consumer payments and vendor payment processing into a single entity: one central account/one central payment processor. This is flawed for a number of reasons. Primarily because those two things are not even remotely related contextually. Consumer payments aren't often one central account either. There can be multiple credit/debit/gift cards associated with a consumer's account. Also, your wrong about 3rd party access to payment data. The 3rd parties the consumer uses to make the payment (banks, credit unions, card companies) have access to that info, as well as access to personal data. Whether or not the payment processor is Apple or another company doesn't change that. Contrary to your claim, consumers would not need to monitor and maintain multiple accounts. Backend processing is not a consumer facing process. It's invisible to them. Consumer would simply continue doing as they always have. Payment process is a vendor/developer facing process.

Developer - Your assumption that 15% to Apple is cheaper than using 3rd party processor is based on what? Certainly not factual info because there isn't any right now. We 100% agree a large dev could probably process payments cheaper than Apple currently does. Where we disagree is on the assumption that 3rd party processing would have to be more expensive for the small dev. Why assume that? Wouldn't a more likely scenario exist where the 3rd party processor offers cheaper rates than Apple to entice devs to use their payment systems? Your argument about who benefits falls apart if 3rd party processors charge all devs less. Would using an alternative processor be more complicated? Maybe, maybe not. Depends almost entirely on the robustness of the system being offered. That goes back to the dev to make an evaluation of the value in switching payment processors.

Until we get more info, none of the things you postulated can really be considered a valid argument since they're all based of facts not in evidence.

Third party processing is more expensive than Apple. To get even close to what Apple provides you would need a service like Fastspring. I don’t want to be a a sudden competitive disadvantage to developers that have earned their millions and billions already. We have had a level playing field of late and you can see the success of Affinity, Epic, and Spotify from getting into this market. They all compete equally on iOS with every other developer and going back to pre AppStore only benefits those that have earned their billions.
 
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Third party processing is more expensive than Apple. To get even close to what Apple provides you would need a service like Fastspring. I don’t want to be a a sudden competitive disadvantage to developers that have earned their millions and billions already. We have had a level playing field of late and you can see the success of Affinity, Epic, and Spotify from getting into this market. They all compete equally on iOS with every other developer and going back to pre AppStore only benefits those that have earned their billions.

Apart from that one time when Spotify complained to the EU that Apple was using private API's and weaponising App review..
 
Apart from that one time when Spotify complained to the EU that Apple was using private API's and weaponising App review..
The amount of binary thinking regarding certain situations is awesome. For this one time ever where it happened and spotify complained to the EU what happened again?
 
The falsest of false dichotomies

It isn't though.

They've selected to release their apps as Media Consumption apps. They made a choice to not involve the sales process in them. It's really no different than my TV-login enabled apps in this manner. I've purchased TV services elsewhere, and I'm just logging in to consume the media outside of that sales platform.
 
Is the law a good reason for you? If they make it a law I am sure Apple will oblige. The phone belongs to its owner. The notion of ecosystem has no legal meaning.
These kind of arguments are quite ridiculous. You own the hardware. You can throw it in the bottom of the Ocean and just leave. You can jailbreak, but Apple is not required to help you do so.

I own my PS4 and Xbox One as well. Should we force Microsoft and Sony to allow alternative app stores there too?
 
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Rightfully so.

Even without considering traditional in-app purchases, developers could just make an app that's $10 one-time payment "free" and then have a "in-app purchase" to unlock it.

This will give us terrible user experience because every app will require the user to manage their own logins and license keys, compared to the current state where everything is managed through the Apple account, similar to how it also works on XBOX, PlayStation, Nintendo…
I disagree, it's more about having multiple payment options--PayPal, Square, etc. It's not removing Apple Pay from their apps completely. Apps like Spotify have their own licensing system that's cross-platform and cheaper which relies on payment processors like Stripe which take only around 3%. Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc meanwhile take a 30% cut on Payments.
 
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