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Apr 12, 2001
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Arizona is considering legislation that would prevent developers from being forced to use Apple's in-app purchase options, and as the bill heads to the Arizona Senate, Apple and Google are lobbying heavily against it.

app-store-blue-banner.jpg

As outlined by Protocol, Apple has been working against the bill since last month. Apple lobbyist Rob Didiron began fighting the legislation before it had been formally introduced, with Apple also hiring additional lobbyists and sending lawyers to Arizona.

"We went through a very difficult weekend where Apple and Google hired probably almost every lobbyist in town," said Arizona State Representative Regina Cobb, who created HB2005.

HB2005, an amendment to an 2005 Arizona bill, is designed to let app developers use third-party payment options to avoid the 15 to 30 percent cut that Apple takes from app purchases and in-app payments.

Cobb developed the bill after being approached by lobbyist Ryan O'Daniel, who represents the Coalition for App Fairness. The Coalition for App Fairness was formed in September 2020 and its members include Epic Games, Spotify, Tile, Basecamp, Blix, and other developers that have had disagreements with Apple.

In a hearing last week, Apple's chief compliance officer Kyle Andeer called HB2005 a "government mandate that Apple give away the App Store."
"This would allow billion-dollar developers to take all of the app store's value for free, even if they're selling digital goods, even if they're making millions or billions of dollars doing it. The bill is a government mandate that Apple give away the app store."
Apple in November lowered its App Store cut for developers making under $1 million to 15 percent, so for the majority of developers, Apple now collects 15 percent instead of 30 percent. Andeer said that 83 percent of developers pay no fees at all, as they offer free apps.

Apple last month successfully fought back against a similar bill in North Dakota, which would have paved the way for third-party app store options. The bill, which was also backed by the Coalition for App Fairness, was shot down by the North Dakota Senate.

It is not clear if HB2005 will pass in Arizona, as it is facing opposition from Arizona Democrats who do not believe that state legislature should interfere with ongoing litigation, referencing the legal battle between Apple and Epic Games. Cobb this week plans to meet with Apple executives to "negotiate the contours of the bill."

Article Link: Apple Lobbying Against Arizona Bill That Would Let Developers Use Third-Party Payment Options
 
Last edited:

centauratlas

macrumors 65816
Jan 29, 2003
1,466
2,552
Florida
" who do not believe that state legislature should interfere with ongoing legislation, referencing the legal battle between Apple and Epic Games"

Perhaps it means ongoing litigation?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
 
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jclo

Editor
Staff member
Dec 7, 2012
1,803
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California
" who do not believe that state legislature should interfere with ongoing legislation, referencing the legal battle between Apple and Epic Games"

Perhaps it means ongoing litigation?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
yep, thanks, will fix.
 
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ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,580
4,128
Scotland
Hopefully Apple loses.
If Apple loses then developers lose the ability to host free apps. We also lose the equal opportunity as huge companies would be able to use cheep payment providers that are too expensive for small developers to pay or force small developers to geofence their apps to only markets they are able and/or can afford to pay taxes too instead of having Apple doing it for us.
 

farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,033
If third party iOS apps are able to use a third party payment solution, guaranteed that $99/year + 15% aren't going to be the only Apple fees indie iOS developers need to worry about. Only the bigger devs benefit from this since paying for hosting/servers/google maps are peanuts to them.

Don't let people like Tim from Epic or DHH from Basecamp/Hey fool you, they absolutely aren't looking out for the smaller guys. They're only using that argument for themselves.

Arizona hasn't thought this through, sadly.
 
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jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
4,126
11,577
Temecula, CA
again, an Epic lobbyists influences a politician to put a bill up ... and then complaining about Apple and Google getting their own lobbyists ... politicians are all the same, as my father said: put all politicians in a sack, use a bat and start hitting the sack, you will always hit the right one ...
 

farewelwilliams

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Jun 18, 2014
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In a hearing last week, Apple's chief compliance officer Kyle Andeer called HB2005 a "government mandate that Apple give away the App Store.

Nobody is forcing Apple to give away their App Store. That's a lie.

Every app will be able to bypass Apple's cut. $99/year per developer isn't nearly enough to pay for the App Store bills. How long until Apple has to shutdown the App Store because it isn't making a profit?
 

Somian

macrumors regular
Feb 15, 2011
235
292
Fort Wayne, IN
Rightfully so.

Even without considering traditional in-app purchases, developers could just make an app that's $10 one-time payment "free" and then have a "in-app purchase" to unlock it.

This will give us terrible user experience because every app will require the user to manage their own logins and license keys, compared to the current state where everything is managed through the Apple account, similar to how it also works on XBOX, PlayStation, Nintendo…
 

Cosmosent

macrumors 68020
Apr 20, 2016
2,013
2,307
La Jolla, CA
I think they are attacking it from the wrong direction.

Consider this, if Third-Party iOS App Stores were allowed here in the States, that would create "App Discovery" competition for Apple.

That, in turn, & assuming Third-Party iOS App Stores could set their own Commission Rate, would create significant "Price Competition" for Apple !

That, in turn, would result in a race to the bottom !

If Third-Party iOS App Stores here in the States were setup as Utilities, with a Fixed 5% OR so Commission, I think that would be ideal.

For some UN-known reason, Tim Cook does NOT even know that the App Store has HUGE UN-tapped potential, OUTSIDE of Game Apps & Apple Arcade !

He doesn't know, because he simply never tried !

Creating App Discovery competition "may" be the ONLY way Apple ever finds out !

I don't think Apple has ever had a Software Developer running the iOS App Store !

Nor anyone who ever ran a Software Company !

Tim Cook ONLY goes after Low Hanging Fruit.

Third-Party iOS App Stores will blossom, if they target NON-Game Apps !

Perhaps Apple keeps the Game Apps & Apple Arcade, & lets everything else go Third-Party.

I'm OK with that !

Apple has both a Duty & a Responsibility to promote & recommend the Best Apps.

NOT just the ones that are best-aligned with their Business Strategy decisions !

Which is clearly what they do.
 

69Mustang

macrumors 604
Jan 7, 2014
7,873
15,010
In between a rock and a hard place
If Apple loses then developers lose the ability to host free apps. We also lose the equal opportunity as huge companies would be able to use cheep payment providers that are too expensive for small developers to pay or force small developers to geofence their apps to only markets they are able and/or can afford to pay taxes too instead of having Apple doing it for us.
Your comment is kind of all over the place and makes no sense.
Why would devs lose the ability to host free apps? Free apps aren't free because of Apple's 1st party payment system. 3rd party payment systems would be a choice, not mandated. Any dev wanting to continue using Apple's system would be free to do so.

Help me with this: Big companies would use cheap payment providers, but these providers would be simultaneously too expensive for small devs? Huh? Disregarding the illogic, the small devs could continue using the cheaper 1st party solution.

It would be a choice. None of your argument works because their would always be the option to continue using Apple.
 

insoft.uk

macrumors regular
Mar 15, 2018
117
56
Be very bad for the end consumer and an end to the App Store as the big developers would simply release games for free to download and to unlock to fully play the game you purchase from the developer an effective unlock key and since the app is free to download Apple and Google doesn’t make anything from the developer other than the yearly developer fee so that will lead to third part stores controls by the big software companies destroying small time developers and hurt the end consumer in the end
 

Dorje Sylas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 8, 2011
505
344

Being put forward by Rep Regina Cobb of Kingman.

As an Arizonan my immediate reaction is to be super suspect of this bill, since it's coming from one of our House Republicans. She's also a sponsor on a number of other "eerrrr, eeeee, yeeeek" bills.

Like AZ HB2793, which one of the AZGOP's eliminate "Permanent Early Voting List" bills. Been pushed in retaliation for... winning almost every key State and lower race in 2020.

In a hearing last week, Apple's chief compliance officer Kyle Andeer called HB2005 a "government mandate that Apple give away the App Store.

Nobody is forcing Apple to give away their App Store. That's a lie.

Read the current text. In function it is. If there are 1 Million downloads (not defined as paid downloads) coming from Arizona to a platform it may not "REQUIRE A DEVELOPER THAT IS DOMICILED IN THIS STATE TO USE A PARTICULAR IN-APPLICATION PAYMENT SYSTEM".


I can't see this bill as anything other than Republicans taking an excuse to retaliate against Apple specifically, and not written in good faith on behalf of Arizona consumers. There's also a carve out for "SPECIAL-PURPOSE DIGITAL APPLICATION DISTRIBUTION PLATFORMs," which includes "GAMING CONSOLES" and "MUSIC PLAYERS".
 

69Mustang

macrumors 604
Jan 7, 2014
7,873
15,010
In between a rock and a hard place
Every app will be able to bypass Apple's cut. $99/year per developer isn't nearly enough to pay for the App Store bills. How long until Apple has to shutdown the App Store because it isn't making a profit?
Jeebus that's hyperbolic FUD. The worst thing that would happen is the App Store would become less profitable for Apple because they would have to compete to be the devs preferred payment processor. The App Store would never shut down so even putting that out there is silly. With no App Store there literally be no reason to get an iPhone. A smartphone with no apps would just be an expensive dumb phone.

Besides, most devs would stick with the tried and true, imo. Just because the option would exist doesn't mean there'd be a mass exodus from Apple as a payment system provider.
 

jinnj

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2011
485
374
If third party iOS apps are able to use a third party payment solution, guaranteed that $99/year + 15% aren't going to be the only Apple fees indie iOS developers need to worry about. Only the bigger devs benefit from this since paying for hosting/servers/google maps are peanuts to them.

Don't let people like Tim from Epic or DHH from Basecamp/Hey fool you, they absolutely aren't looking out for the smaller guys. They're only using that argument for themselves.

Arizona hasn't thought this through, sadly.
Remember Epic / EA / MS are used to paying $10,000 for developer units of console so they don't care but indie developers will stay away. Companies like Qnap will definitely stop making their apps that they provide to assist with their NAS. Open Source Apps like OwnCloud & Wikipedia. Apps that rely on Apple provided services like Overcast (they use Apple's collection of podcasts).
 

ComRadMac

macrumors member
Jun 6, 2017
97
220
"We went through a very difficult weekend where Apple and Google hired probably almost every lobbyist in town,"
"Cobb developed the bill after being approached by lobbyist Ryan O'Daniel"

So: "A lobbyist bribed me to write this bill, but then some other lobbyists tried to bribe me to kill it, and that was quite difficult."
 

jinnj

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2011
485
374
I think they are attacking it from the wrong direction.

Consider this, if Third-Party iOS App Stores were allowed here in the States, that would create "App Discovery" competition for Apple.

That, in turn, & assuming Third-Party iOS App Stores could set their own Commission Rate, would create significant "Price Competition" for Apple !

That, in turn, would result in a race to the bottom !

If Third-Party iOS App Stores here in the States were setup as Utilities, with a Fixed 5% OR so Commission, I think that would be ideal.

For some UN-known reason, Tim Cook does NOT even know that the App Store has HUGE UN-tapped potential, OUTSIDE of Game Apps & Apple Arcade !

He doesn't know, because he simply never tried !

Creating App Discovery competition "may" be the ONLY way Apple ever finds out !

I don't think Apple has ever had a Software Developer running the iOS App Store !

Nor anyone who ever ran a Software Company !

Tim Cook ONLY goes after Low Hanging Fruit.

Third-Party iOS App Stores will blossom, if they target NON-Game Apps !

Perhaps Apple keeps the Game Apps & Apple Arcade, & lets everything else go Third-Party.

I'm OK with that !

Apple has both a Duty & a Responsibility to promote & recommend the Best Apps.

NOT just the ones that are best-aligned with their Business Strategy decisions !

Which is clearly what they do.
Why are you always talking about the lack of App Discovery? If I want Utilities then I go to the Utilities category and BOOM! I get a list of utilities. Games is at the front in the US App Market because it is the top seller. Also it's not like they are preventing you from searching for a utility. You can even search for a utility that doesn't exists on iOS like Total Commander and Viola!!! A listing of various file managers.
 

Starscape

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2016
157
201
Florida and New York

Being put forward by Rep Regina Cobb of Kingman.

As an Arizonan my immediate reaction is to be super suspect of this bill, since it's coming from one of our House Republicans. She's also a sponsor on a number of other "eerrrr, eeeee, yeeeek" bills.

Like AZ HB2793, which one of the AZGOP's eliminate "Permanent Early Voting List" bills. Been pushed in retaliation for... winning almost every key State and lower race in 2020.



Read the current text. In function it is. If there are 1 Million downloads (not defined as paid downloads) coming from Arizona to a platform it may not "REQUIRE A DEVELOPER THAT IS DOMICILED IN THIS STATE TO USE A PARTICULAR IN-APPLICATION PAYMENT SYSTEM".


I can't see this bill as anything other than Republicans taking an excuse to retaliate against Apple specifically, and not written in good faith on behalf of Arizona consumers. There's also a carve out for "SPECIAL-PURPOSE DIGITAL APPLICATION DISTRIBUTION PLATFORMs," which includes "GAMING CONSOLES" and "MUSIC PLAYERS".


Just a hunch here, but it looks like you're heavily biased against Republicans.
 

Meñito

macrumors member
Jul 8, 2015
49
56
If Apple loses then developers lose the ability to host free apps. We also lose the equal opportunity as huge companies would be able to use cheep payment providers that are too expensive for small developers to pay or force small developers to geofence their apps to only markets they are able and/or can afford to pay taxes too instead of having Apple doing it for us.
I am not agree. Apple will never stop hosting free applications, as it would damage its iPhone ecosystem. Apple does not pay taxes for all developers, as not all are from the US. I have never seen geolocation of applications in order to limit their market.
 
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Starscape

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2016
157
201
Florida and New York
you aren't entitled to 'more choices' on someone elses platform. if you dont like a 'locked down ecosystem' then you can always buy an android phone

Well you seem like the pro-consumer type, don't you? If I purchase a device, I own it, and therefore yes, I am entitled to use that device as I wish, and includes installing whatever software I want on it.
 
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