Apple Loses Major Tax Dispute in Europe, Must Pay Ireland €13 Billion

[MacFarmer]

Finally, way to go EU. I'm fed up paying close to 40% taxes whilst these companies pay peanuts. The disproportion is crazy

Lucky you! I get 43% + VAT + property tax + infrastructure tax + few more.. Wish I would be a billionaire so I could pay the tax amount I think is appropriate.

I don't feel sorry for giant corporation to loose and in this case, pay taxes. It just does not seem fair that the agreement was approved i the first place, and latter on ignored. Guess business is business, and EU gov is quite jealous. But then why lay foundation for these tax sandwiches, and then later penalize the players. Easy money I assume? If government leeches would have balls, they would pass a proper tax laws without any loopholes. But no, they want to eat from both sides of the table. They would not be elected without corp backing.

tl;dr don't care, appl should pay taxes, but government is at fault here too.

so, I guess the Ireland call center will be closed?

 

[GrayFlannel]

The so-called IREXIT cry is very faint here. Some people are making some noise but, in general, Irish people are mostly happy with being part of something much bigger than our older and long-standing relationship with our neighbouring island. Time will tell, of course. The open borders of the EU are causing some backlashes in many members countries.

It was mostly a tongue in cheek comment. IRE won no matter how the ruling came down.

 

[.wojtek]

Well, that happens if you dodge taxes

Yup, though EU is somewhat guilty here as well as it was possible to have "0 tax" in some shady member states (Ireland)..
but this loophole is being closed now with minimum CIT across the block (this year I think)

 

[I7guy]

It means exactly that: they dodged taxes.
They set up a structure to dodge taxes in a deal with the tax authorities - and that was found illegal.

Spin it like a top. 👍

I’m for cross-border commerce, and so is the European Union.

But if means a company can claim to “sell products at a loss“ in big European markets like France, Germany and the U.K. - and funnel the profits to low- or untaxed entities by exploiting loopholes in a country’s tax code.

This article explains it quite succinctly.

Yes it does. But they did not evade taxes, they lost a tax case…like so many others.

 

[AlexMaximus]

Since we in Germany have no political brains, those news are a refreshing proof that there seems to be some % of brains left in Europe. Obviously it's Ireland. I applaud Irland, the last bastion of brains in a totally screwed up, corrupt and occupied Europe. Who would have thought.



So to all Irish, it's not Luck, It's brains

Congratulaions!

... and don't let Von der Leyen get her dirty hands on your money....

or build cycling tracks in Peru...

spend it for yourself

 

[rme]

It means exactly that: they dodged taxes.
They set up a structure to dodge taxes in a deal with the tax authorities - and that was found illegal.


I’m for cross-border commerce, and so is the European Union.

But if means a company can claim to “sell products at a loss“ in big European markets like France, Germany and the U.K. - and funnel the profits to low- or untaxed entities by exploiting loopholes in a country’s tax code.

This article explains it quite succinctly.

If someone in germany buys a phone from a french webshop instead of a german shop, that french webshop doesn't pay any taxes to the german government. (below a certain threshold, above that they have to pay VAT). Why shouldn't Apple be allowed to do this?

 

[GrayFlannel]

The lesson for businesses is that Ireland makes promises they know they can't keep.

The lesson is that Apple and IRE knowingly entered into this agreement fully aware it was subject to approval. They tossed the dice and Apple lost but IRE still won.

 

[GMShadow]

"Today is a big win for European citizens and for tax justice," said the European Union's competition chief Margrethe Vestager

Shouldn't that be 'anti-competition chief'? That's what this is about - Fourth Reich member states are all required to suffer equally, and none may be permitted to try and better things for their own citizens.

 

[Artsketch]

Peanuts

 

[AppliedMicro]

If someone in germany buys a phone from a french webshop instead of a german shop, that french webshop doesn't pay any taxes to the german government

It will pay taxes in France - where it operates.
But there are rules against shifting that profit away from France.

below a certain threshold, above that they have to pay VAT

A threshold that stands at 10‘000 Euros.

An exception from the rule for very small businesses (or businesses with very small, occasional cross-border intra-EU business). It’s evidently not at all applicable to Apple or companies of Apple’s size.

 

[victorvictoria]

EU: "You pay us €13B!"
TIM COOK: "Do you take Apple Pay?"

 

[rme]

... and don't let Von der Leyen get her dirty hands on your money....

or build cycling tracks in Peru...

spend it for yourself

When von der leyen's term ends she'll get a 2 million a year/4 hours per month job at Pfizer after handing them tens of billions.
This is standard practice in the EU, and I never hear people who complain about multinationals complain about this.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Spin it like a top.

Anyone spinning things is you.
They set up that structure explicitly to “dodge” taxes - and it was found illegal. End of discussion.

You’re spinning it as “losing a case”. Which is very disingenuous, considering your own insistence on “case law” (or lack thereof) in repeatedly pointing out how Apple is supposedly anbiding by the (anntitrust) law and not acting anticompetitively.

 

[Marbles1]

Not quite sure why they will take a charge of up to $10 billion for this ruling. The money to pay has been set aside in an escrow account for years, and has actually accrued quite a bit of interest.

Anyway, while there's no doubt the Irish government made a nice deal with Apple years ago as a way of getting a large corporate presence from Apple in the country, I think the decision on the part of the EU is wrong. It can easily be seen as morally wrong, but not illegal. The EU forcing Ireland to stop the deal is fine, but not make the change in law ex post facto.

In any event, with Apple having something like $160 billion in cash and as I said, the money for this decision already set aside, it will be just a blip in the larger story that is Apple.

The benefits given at the time were not legal - we can't let corporations / people get away with crimes simply because they happened in the past.

 

[kingtj1971]

I saw some video the other day, apparently within the last year it was possible to order a ten year old Mac Pro trash can that couldn't run the latest Mac OS, for quite a few bucks. But, because the hardware was so old, if you tried to trade it in, they'd only recycle.

Zero sympathy for the charge coming their way.

To be fair ... not sure how that proves much of anything? At some point, it's more of a liability than a money-maker for a company to keep offering an otherwise discontinued product like that.

Apple probably only offers the 10 year old Mac Pro because somewhere out there, there were some important customers using them who demanded the ability to buy identical replacements for X number of years if and when they were needed.

It's a bit like Microsoft still selling maintenance agreements for older versions of Windows, for big corporate or government customers who would rather pay a large annual sum to get update/security patches for them than undergo a total operating system upgrade.

 

[hans1972]

Those €13 billion can probably be deducted from US federal taxes, so it means less taxes for the US and more for Ireland.

 

[Gloor]

I'm not in US but in Canada in one of the most expensive tax province. Yes, my salary is not bad but as an employee I don't have that many options. (its a bit more complicated for this forum though)

You really should talk to a financial advisor or an accountant or a tax attorney. If you are playing 40% taxes, taking that statement at face value, you should be making over 600,000 a year. Taxation is a game of cat and mouse, no reason you should be paying that amount if you diversify it via investments, property ( tax free zones) etc. Honestly you should talk to a few people. Create an LLC, start up a side business, get deductions for that etc.

 

[davide_eu]

I think the decision on the part of the EU is wrong. It can easily be seen as morally wrong, but not illegal. The EU forcing Ireland to stop the deal is fine, but not make the change in law ex post facto.

Why do you say this? Why wrong but not illegal for you?

 

[h.gilbert]

Its not illegal Tim, you're right,..but it most definitly is immoral.

Since Tim took over, Apple has become a money hungry slave to its shareholders and lost every ounce of the innovation that Steve himself brought to Apple.

The packaging for the iPhone 16 is for the first time 100% fiber based. They also had mother nature herself appear in one of their commercials. Apple is a force for good and you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[hans1972]

With a final court ruling confirming that, yes, Apple dodged tax.

No, Ireland was found guilty of giving illegal state aid to Apple.

Apple hasn't been convicted of anything in this case since they didn't to anything illegal. It's not illegal to receive illegal state aid.

 

[davide_eu]

The money has been sitting in a dedicated New York bank account for many years awaiting the outcome of this case, so it won’t come from current Apple funds.

Sorry, but it seems you have to study better accounting...

 

[davide_eu]

I don't see how that's different from what happened in Ireland. Apple built facilities there and employed people, bringing in an industry that otherwise wouldn't have gone there. For that, Ireland lowered Apple's taxes. That happens all the time in the U.S.

But in EU this is a state-aid...

 

[hans1972]

I've had more than enough of Tim's Apple at this point

Man, that AirPods Max "update" was something yesterday

The arrangement existed all under Jobs who was accountable when Apple did a double Irish with a Dutch twist.

What Apple is paying in Irish taxes they can deduct from their US taxes.

Ireland wins, the US loose.

 

[davide_eu]

Shouldn't that be 'anti-competition chief'? That's what this is about - Fourth Reich member states are all required to suffer equally, and none may be permitted to try and better things for their own citizens.

In EU there are some rules... and they were agreed by Ireland too. So please, don't repeat the propaganda.

 

[GMShadow]

In EU there are some rules... and they were agreed by Ireland too. So please, don't repeat the propaganda.

The rules in the Reich are whatever the Reichsmarschall says they are that day.