Apple Made Me Buy a Windows HP Workstation

[Mark Holmes]

So, yep, that is exactly what happened. I wanted to buy a Mac Pro for my 4k editing needs. I nursed my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 for 7 years, upgrading the RAM, the video card, constantly changing out hard drives as my needs dictated, loving the configurability and reliability of that machine.
But it was choking on the 4k footage I'm editing now, the bottleneck was memory and processor, and the only solution was to replace it with something faster, that could be upgraded over the years as I did with the classic Mac Pro.
So I shopped the Mac Pro, configured it to what I needed, and ended up with a decent system: the 3.5 GHZ six core, 64GB of RAM, 256 Flash Drive, and the dual D700 GPUs. That came to $5,799.00. Really, Apple? For a machine that hasn't been updated since 2013?!?! Add to that the fact that I don't trust Apple to keep building the Mac Pro - burned by Aperture and FCPX - and the fact that this machine will never be able to be updated over the coming years the way I did with the 2009 Mac Pro.
So I found myself researching HP workstations.
A couple days research later, I had my system. The HP Z640 Workstation. 3.5 GHZ 6 core Xeon, 256GB PCI Flash Drive, adding an AMD 390x graphics card and 64GB of RAM. With the additional memory and graphics card, it came to just over $3,000.00
Apple, I think, IMHO, is moving on from the professional market. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Killing off the professional software, building "pro" machines that don't meet pro needs, not consistently updating the "pro" machines they do build... you get the idea.
Makes me sad, as I've been relying on Apple for professional needs for many years. But I believe the ethos of the company has changed... time to move on.
[doublepost=1461876080][/doublepost]Oh, i will admit, I'm keeping the old Mac Pro as well. Still perfectly suitable for photo editing and personal use. . Just wish Apple could come to their senses and build a real replacement for the Mac Pro.

 

[strukt]

So, yep, that is exactly what happened. I wanted to buy a Mac Pro for my 4k editing needs. I nursed my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 for 7 years, upgrading the RAM, the video card, constantly changing out hard drives as my needs dictated, loving the configurability and reliability of that machine.
But it was choking on the 4k footage I'm editing now, the bottleneck was memory and processor, and the only solution was to replace it with something faster, that could be upgraded over the years as I did with the classic Mac Pro.
So I shopped the Mac Pro, configured it to what I needed, and ended up with a decent system: the 3.5 GHZ six core, 64GB of RAM, 256 Flash Drive, and the dual D700 GPUs. That came to $5,799.00. Really, Apple? For a machine that hasn't been updated since 2013?!?! Add to that the fact that I don't trust Apple to keep building the Mac Pro - burned by Aperture and FCPX - and the fact that this machine will never be able to be updated over the coming years the way I did with the 2009 Mac Pro.
So I found myself researching HP workstations.
A couple days research later, I had my system. The HP Z640 Workstation. 3.5 GHZ 6 core Xeon, 256GB PCI Flash Drive, adding an AMD 390x graphics card and 64GB of RAM. With the additional memory and graphics card, it came to just over $3,000.00
Apple, I think, IMHO, is moving on from the professional market. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Killing off the professional software, building "pro" machines that don't meet pro needs, not consistently updating the "pro" machines they do build... you get the idea.
Makes me sad, as I've been relying on Apple for professional needs for many years. But I believe the ethos of the company has changed... time to move on.

Yeah, I also think it is time to move on. I see no point in buying a Mac for an obscene amount of money doing work a PC can do just as well or better. The convenience of OS X is just not worth it anymore.

I still use my MBP Retina though. For "office" stuff.

 

[pastrychef]

Good luck.

 

[Mark Holmes]

And to be honest, I'd probably pay the obscene amount of money, if the new Mac Pro served my needs. But not being able to add PCIe cards, not being able to throw hard drives in it... etc. It's just ridiculous. I see audio and video pros still nursing their old Mac Pros and I can't help but wonder; isn't Apple aware that professionals, at least the majority, have not bought into their idea of a tiny non expandable Mac Pro? Or do they care?

 

[strukt]

Of course they are aware, but the Mac Pro doesn't really account for much of Apples income. And according to Tims last keynote the iPad Pro was the future of professionals in his opinion.

 

[Mark Holmes]

Yeah, I also think it is time to move on. I see no point in buying a Mac for an obscene amount of money doing work a PC can do just as well or better. The convenience of OS X is just not worth it anymore.

I still use my MBP Retina though. For "office" stuff.

Of course they are aware, but the Mac Pro doesn't really account for much of Apples income. And according to Tims last keynote the iPad Pro was the future of professionals in his opinion.

LOL, iPad Pro for what pros? Not video and film guys, that's for sure. I think Tim Cook and Phil Schiller need to take a week off, and spend the time touring some post houses, indie film offices, live theatre sound departments, etc. They'll get an earful. When it comes to these kind of customers, listening is something Apple execs should try.

 

[strukt]

LOL, iPad Pro for what pros? Not video and film guys, that's for sure. I think Tim Cook and Phil Schiller need to take a week off, and spend the time touring some post houses, indie film offices, live theatre sound departments, etc. They'll get an earful. When it comes to these kind of customers, listening is something Apple execs should try.

I agree with you, but I dont think Apple does. Its interesting times for sure, it will be fun to see how all this unfolds in the coming years.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

LOL, iPad Pro for what pros? Not video and film guys, that's for sure. I think Tim Cook and Phil Schiller need to take a week off, and spend the time touring some post houses, indie film offices, live theatre sound departments, etc. They'll get an earful. When it comes to these kind of customers, listening is something Apple execs should try.

If the software was there it would be feasible to use an iPad Pro on the field for edits that can sync in the cloud and then be completed on a desktop. Hardware wise it's far beyond the specs of a 15" MacBook Pro from just a few years ago.

We'll see what happen when iOS is properly deceloped with the Pro in mind. The current version of iOS doesn't take advantage of that hardware in any way.

 

[maxsix]

LOL, iPad Pro for what pros? Not video and film guys, that's for sure. I think Tim Cook and Phil Schiller need to take a week off, and spend the time touring some post houses, indie film offices, live theatre sound departments, etc. They'll get an earful. When it comes to these kind of customers, listening is something Apple execs should try.

Apple's terminal case of narcissism seems to influence the decisions they make in odd and negative ways. The future of the Mac Pro was forever altered when they turned it into a piece of art.

Pushing the limited form factor called iPad seals the fate of Apple’s version of "computing". It's a good thing iPhone sales show no signs of slowing...

Oh Wait

 

[Fancuku]

I am in the market for a new laptop for CAD/CAM work. I do have a mid 2014 15" rMBP with the GT750M but it's a pathetic card for CAD?CAM. $2500 should get me a better video card and more than 16GB of RAM.
I am kinda waiting to see what the Skylake MBPs will have but I am not holding my breath. Probably still limited to 16GB RAM and mid-range graphics.

I have been looking at the new Dell Precision laptops. They are now much thinner and lighter than used to be. Plus they support up to 64GB RAM, Quadro graphic cards which are good for CAD, and can have up to 3 different storage drives. M.2 PCI-E, mSata, and Sata III. Prices are around the same as the 15" rMBP.

And lets not forget how there is hardly any CAD/CAM software for Mac. Currently I bootcamp Windows for that.

 

[Mark Holmes]

And the thing Apple forgets, is their pro users serve as more than another group of customers. We are, or were their evangelists, the ones who spread the word about how great Apple products are. The member of the family, or the one of the group of friends who people would go to for tech advice. I increasingly have a hard time pointing people to the Apple store...

 

[pat500000]

And to be honest, I'd probably pay the obscene amount of money, if the new Mac Pro served my needs. But not being able to add PCIe cards, not being able to throw hard drives in it... etc. It's just ridiculous. I see audio and video pros still nursing their old Mac Pros and I can't help but wonder; isn't Apple aware that professionals, at least the majority, have not bought into their idea of a tiny non expandable Mac Pro? Or do they care?

You can upgrade hd....just saying. There was a video of OWC performing it.

 

[AidenShaw]

You can upgrade hd....just saying. There was a video of OWC performing it.

And pay OWC an arm and a leg for old Sandforce-based card, and then go to the hassle of selling the old one.

Yes, it's put together with screws.

 

[ActionableMango]

The current Mac Pro at its current price at this current time is one of the worst computer deals on the planet. Apple really needs to update it, even if it's just a spec bump. I feel pretty bad for anyone having to buy one today.

The Mini is getting pretty long in the tooth too.

 

[pat500000]

And pay OWC an arm and a leg for old Sandforce-based card, and then go to the hassle of selling the old one.

Yes, it's put together with screws.

true..but he was talking about "upgrading."

 

[Brad9893]

You know, there is a lot of turnover in the mobile phone industry. Companies that are dominant one day can find themselves facing irrelevancy the next. Just ask RIM/BlackBerry, Palm, Nokia, etc.

Someday, the iPhone will no longer be insanely popular. In fact, we are seeing the beginning of this now with the declining iPhone shipments, I think. When this decline accelerates, Apple is going to have to figure how they are going to keep making cash, and they will probably look towards the Mac. (After all, the iPad is probably their most in danger product line right now.) Of course, by that time they will have driven away some of their best customers with the trash can that they didn't update for years on end, and the professional line of notebooks that they decided to assemble with copious amounts of glue and solder. They should be listening to their customers, especially the ones who kept the lights on back in the mid-to-late 1990's when they were known as "beleaguered Apple Computer" and trying to stave off bankruptcy. What Apple is doing is very short sighted, especially when they have more resources than ever to dedicate to their products.

Phone customers can be very fickle. But, do you know tends to be more loyal? That's right! Professional customers who depend on your hardware and software for their livelihoods, and not people that may stop buying your products just because the screen doesn't have a curved edge.

Canning Aperture? ASANINE!
Angering all of their customers who edit professional-level video with Final Cut Pro X? STUPID!
Turning the Mac Pro into something that can only be upgraded minimally? FOOLISH!
Not updating the Mac Pro for 3 years? MORONIC!
Soldering RAM onto the logic board of a professional level notebook? IDIOTIC!

The overall "State of the Mac" is abysmal. There used to be a time when you could tell someone you was considering switching to Mac to go and buy almost any machine they wanted from Apple. You definitely can't do that today. You have to tell this person all of the models to avoid, like the Mid 2012 MacBook Pro (complete with optical drive and mechanical hard drive) that they are still selling for around $1200. Or, the MacBook Air which is woefully out-of-date with it's gigantic bezels and horrible TN display panel that wouldn't even be fit for a $200 Chromebook. And don't forget about the entry level iMac's which come standard with 5400 RPM hard drives! There is also the 15" MBP, which is still currently selling for over $2000 with a processor that's two generations old.

Someday, I think that Apple will regret turning their backs on these types of consumers (even if they certainly aren't numerous). If may not be today, or even tomorrow, but I do think it will eventually happen, and they will have no one to blame except for themselves. I, myself, am far closer to a regular consumer and am not a pro by any stretch. But even I am not happy now. I want to replace my 2011 MBP with a new model, but buying a $2500 machine without user upgradeable storage and RAM is off-putting.

Good on you for buying that HP machine. Honestly, Apple doesn't deserve your business anymore, and it sounds like you found a machine that suits you needs better.

 

[drevilcn]

i am currently on a macbook pro early 2010, yes the one with the hardware defects that may occur over time and it did for me.
its crashing alot when its changing from the integrated graphics card to the dedicated, a pain in the ass i can tell you.

the "silent" exchange program is over long time, a big announcement would have been nice.

anyhoo, now i am, like others, waiting desperately for the skylake mpb, but it just wont appear.

as it has been pointed out, the current mac pro with quite old hardware goes for much more cash than better hardware than from the competitors.
what i dislike the most about apple is their pricing policy.....which you can clearly see with the iphone price, within the whole year the price stays the same, even though everybody knows that within the life cycle of a product, the production becomes cheaper. other companies like samsung do lower the prices for the customers as the production becomes cheaper, again apple doesnt. this is truly despiteful.

and everybody feels that apples heart went away from the mac business as the cash cow is the iphone/ipad market.

i still feel like i will have a look at the skylake mbp when it finally comes out, but i am definitely eyeing with other options as well.

 

[Mark Holmes]

true..but he was talking about "upgrading."

Meaning the hard drive, yes, but the fact that the new MPs don't have PCIe slots, and room to install peripherals, and as far as I know, no way to upgrade the graphics card.... It's one thing with a laptop designed for portability from day one but this is a PRO workstation, which is like a truck. Apple apparently has left the business of pro workstations, or trucks.
[doublepost=1461895475][/doublepost]

You know, there is a lot of turnover in the mobile phone industry. Companies that are dominant one day can find themselves facing irrelevancy the next. Just ask RIM/BlackBerry, Palm, Nokia, etc.

Someday, the iPhone will no longer be insanely popular. In fact, we are seeing the beginning of this now with the declining iPhone shipments, I think. When this decline accelerates, Apple is going to have to figure how they are going to keep making cash, and they will probably look towards the Mac. (After all, the iPad is probably their most in danger product line right now.) Of course, by that time they will have driven away some of their best customers with the trash can that they didn't update for years on end, and the professional line of notebooks that they decided to assemble with copious amounts of glue and solder. They should be listening to their customers, especially the ones who kept the lights on back in the mid-to-late 1990's when they were known as "beleaguered Apple Computer" and trying to stave off bankruptcy. What Apple is doing is very short sighted, especially when they have more resources than ever to dedicate to their products.

Phone customers can be very fickle. But, do you know tends to be more loyal? That's right! Professional customers who depend on your hardware and software for their livelihoods, and not people that may stop buying your products just because the screen doesn't have a curved edge.

Canning Aperture? ASANINE!
Angering all of their customers who edit professional-level video with Final Cut Pro X? STUPID!
Turning the Mac Pro into something that can only be upgraded minimally? FOOLISH!
Not updating the Mac Pro for 3 years? MORONIC!
Soldering RAM onto the logic board of a professional level notebook? IDIOTIC!

The overall "State of the Mac" is abysmal. There used to be a time when you could tell someone you was considering switching to Mac to go and buy almost any machine they wanted from Apple. You definitely can't do that today. You have to tell this person all of the models to avoid, like the Mid 2012 MacBook Pro (complete with optical drive and mechanical hard drive) that they are still selling for around $1200. Or, the MacBook Air which is woefully out-of-date with it's gigantic bezels and horrible TN display panel that wouldn't even be fit for a $200 Chromebook. And don't forget about the entry level iMac's which come standard with 5400 RPM hard drives! There is also the 15" MBP, which is still currently selling for over $2000 with a processor that's two generations old.

Someday, I think that Apple will regret turning their backs on these types of consumers (even if they certainly aren't numerous). If may not be today, or even tomorrow, but I do think it will eventually happen, and they will have no one to blame except for themselves. I, myself, am far closer to a regular consumer and am not a pro by any stretch. But even I am not happy now. I want to replace my 2011 MBP with a new model, but buying a $2500 machine without user upgradeable storage and RAM is off-putting.

Good on you for buying that HP machine. Honestly, Apple doesn't deserve your business anymore, and it sounds like you found a machine that suits you needs better.

Brad, thank you for saving me typing time. Exactly. What you said, word for word.

 

[teohyc]

Every time my Mac Pro 2013 crashes due to the acknowledged graphics problem, I come to Macrumors' Mac Pro forums to see if there are people switching.

I too am thinking of switching. Back in 2013, I felt the Mac Pro is quite worth the money. I still do actually when I look back in time. For customers, it would be silly to buy 2013 computer in 2016 at 2013's price. If I know my friend is buying a 2013 Mac Pro, I can't help but say that he/she is silly. It's like Apple professional customers are silly.

I should be sending in the Mac Pro for repairs but I just can't afford the days of downtime since I work everyday. It's faster to just restart and pray that it doesn't crash again.

So yeah, I'm also looking at other non-Mac options now given that I'm quite frustrated with the crashes. Final Cut Pro is nice but maybe it's just better to switch to Premiere.

The only good thing about Mac is MacOS. Without it, Apple computers will just be as cheap as whatever brand that's out there.

Rant over.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

It's too bad that Apple will never read this thread. It's all the sad, sad truth. Apple found they can peddle millions of iPhones and make billions without having to barely work for it. No heavy lifting. The Apple Store employees now have to lift a 1lb box.

 

[Hank Carter]

Mark Holmes:

So what flavor of Windows are you running your HP box? Win7? Win10?

Windows 10 seems to be a big improvement on previous incarnations and has been getting pretty good reviews.
How is that working out for you so far?

OS X is the only thing stopping me from switching. I'm not familiar with maintaining a Windows system and therefore am a little hesitant to make the jump.

But if Apple doesn't show something with PCI slots and a second CPU in June I will have no choice but to make the move to stay competitive in my business. I know many others who have switched to HP or Supermicro boxes that will smoke any nMP for less money.

 

[strukt]

Mark Holmes:

So what flavor of Windows are you running your HP box? Win7? Win10?

Windows 10 seems to be a big improvement on previous incarnations and has been getting pretty good reviews.
How is that working out for you so far?

OS X is the only thing stopping me from switching. I'm not familiar with maintaining a Windows system and therefore am a little hesitant to make the jump.

But if Apple doesn't show something with PCI slots and a second CPU in June I will have no choice but to make the move to stay competitive in my business. I know many others who have switched to HP or Supermicro boxes that will smoke any nMP for less money.

Windows 10 is really fast and snappy if you ask me. If you dont have any specialized software I see no point in running older versions of Windows.

The only thing I do not like about Windows 10 is all data telemetry it gathers and sends to Microsoft. However there are free apps available that can turn most of these surveillance things off. Dont remember names right now but a quick google search and you can find it.

Other than that it works well. You dont have Time Machine in Windows but https://www.bvckup2.com is a good replacement. You have to set it up yourself though.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Apple is in real fear of decline to me. There. I said it.

They now have what, 6x the employees they did of say even 2008? During that time with Steve Jobs they would update all macs, screens, iphones, OSes, heck even had meaningful updates of iWork/iLife, every year.

Yet with more people they are producing less and less. No new displays in forever. MacPro not updated in 3 years. Look at the buyers guide page here for macs, it's a sea of red/forgotten updates.

Even the iMac, the most updated model, it has a 3TB drive! 3TBs! When 8TB drives go for like $200 bux. They marginally can keep updating the iphone, and if rumors are true, that the iphone 7 will have the same form factor, it will be a catastrophe. They don't even get that an iPhone is a fashion statement. Most of china and india and russia want an iphone as a status symbol to say 'hey i'm rich' and for that to work, they need a new form factor or color to properly say 'hey look at me.'

More people producing zilch. There is no excuse for it. They are paying attention to stupid social issues and charities instead of their damn job. And that lack of focus has turned them all into non-producers.

If they dont produce some really cool hardware at WWDC (i.e., not mere same form factor speed bumps), we will have passed an inflection point. And if they really do come out with an iphone with the same form factor in sept, we will have passed another one, and both inflection points leading to downward decline.

 

[Hank Carter]

Windows 10 is really fast and snappy if you ask me. If you dont have any specialized software I see no point in running older versions of Windows.

The only thing I do not like about Windows 10 is all data telemetry it gathers and sends to Microsoft. However there are free apps available that can turn most of these surveillance things off. Dont remember names right now but a quick google search and you can find it.

Other than that it works well. You dont have Time Machine in Windows but https://www.bvckup2.com is a good replacement. You have to set it up yourself though.

thx.

 

[Brad9893]

Apple is in real fear of decline to me. There. I said it.

They now have what, 6x the employees they did of say even 2008? During that time with Steve Jobs they would update all macs, screens, iphones, OSes, heck even had meaningful updates of iWork/iLife, every year.

Yet with more people they are producing less and less. No new displays in forever. MacPro not updated in 3 years. Look at the buyers guide page here for macs, it's a sea of red/forgotten updates.

Even the iMac, the most updated model, it has a 3TB drive! 3TBs! When 8TB drives go for like $200 bux. They marginally can keep updating the iphone, and if rumors are true, that the iphone 7 will have the same form factor, it will be a catastrophe. They don't even get that an iPhone is a fashion statement. Most of china and india and russia want an iphone as a status symbol to say 'hey i'm rich' and for that to work, they need a new form factor or color to properly say 'hey look at me.'

More people producing zilch. There is no excuse for it. They are paying attention to stupid social issues and charities instead of their damn job. And that lack of focus has turned them all into non-producers.

If they dont produce some really cool hardware at WWDC (i.e., not mere same form factor speed bumps), we will have passed an inflection point. And if they really do come out with an iphone with the same form factor in sept, we will have passed another one, and both inflection points leading to downward decline.

It's come to the point that I am no longer quite sure what Apple employees actually do at work.