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I'm still not convinced on Windows 10. Windows 7 is still my favorite. I honestly think that the main reason Windows 10 is being so favorably viewed is that it rolled us back some from the disaster that was Windows 8. That's a sad statement for an OS: "Yeah, but it got us closer to the version that came before the last version."
Windows 10 ? Look at this:

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Power-Option-In-Control-panel.png


I still think Microsoft isn't capable to maintain coherence in their own OS.
 
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I guess it all depends on the type of work you do. I have both a custom built Windows 10 PC that I made specifically for gaming and a 2014 15" Retina MacBook Pro. Although I feel like Windows 10 is the best version of Windows so far, I do not use my PC for anything else than gaming. I just prefer to use OS X, because it is so much more elegant. I live in a country where electronics are incredibly expensive and I paid the equivalent of 2700$ for a machine that in the US cost 2000$ at the time. They are a luxury item here, when people see the glowing Apple logo, they tend to stare at it a little bit.

I don't know what kind of things people do on their computers nowadays, but I truly believe that as of right now, a custom built PC is a much better value for the money. As far as I am concerned, I have warranty for every single component in my computer so if something breaks, my only inconvenience is detecting the problem, then send the faulty hardware to the shop. My GPU broke suddenly, sent it in, received a new one. I understand that people love being all comfy, but buying a prebuilt Windows desktop basically means wasting money. They are outrageously overpriced and you can get the same components for half the cost and have someone build it for you, if you are afraid of screwing something up.

When it comes to laptops, though, that's a whole other deal. I think that Windows is pretty stable nowadays and if you stay away from certain websites and be cautious with the software that you download onto your computer, you should be fine. Many Apple users overly-exaggerate when it comes to the amount of issues Windows has. It's far from perfect, but it's significantly better than it was in the past and with proper maintenance, it will last you a long time.

However, I am far too used to my Mac, so the only thing that my Windows PC is ever used for is Steam. While I truly love the design of my Mac and I enjoy the great experience that OS X offers, I feel like Apple are being now greedier than ever. Macs have always been expensive, but it's painful to see they still ship Macs with 5400rpm HDDs in this day and age. It's funny to see Phil Schiller saying how the iMac has always been about cutting-edge performance, when the entry-level machines are unbelievably expensive for what they offer. Going alongside with those gorgeous 4K and 5K displays, at this point, I see it as basically a design flaw rather than pure greediness. Also, how much to they want to increase their margins? 24GB SSDs instead of 128GBs for Fusion Drives?

I also think that Macs get too much hate in general. They are wonderful machines and they generally perform very well, but flash storage plays an essential part in this. I understand why people hate Windows in general, but when it comes to the current Mac lineup, I also understand the hate for that.
 
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Well color changes might be an example of them trying to be cool. And maybe young folk think that Apple phones are cool partly because the expense is still a lot for folks who don't have regular jobs. But the folks that I deal with who are adults just all have Apple products. They do not see them as cool. They seem them as normal these days.

Pretty looking though is not something that I think is useless. The Mac Pro looking nice and also being very powerful did not seem like a sacrifice or a mistake by Apple. It seemed like trying really hard to me.

I don't think adding retina is as easy to do for laptop as you say considering I have a 2015 laptop that cost a bundle and is not even close to a retina screen on it. And I do not see too many out there that have what you say is so easy to add to the Mac Air.

I think folks who feel like Apples marketing team is the real key is missing the point. Even in your earlier post you say that their hardware is really high quality. Samsungs commercials have been funny and have had great celebrity endorsements. And they've spent a bundle. I do not see how Apple has some stranglehold on marketing. All the marketing is done by third parties that basically any company can hire for an add campaign anyway.

I think Apple has a mammoth RD department funded by iPhone profits and they are reaping the benefits of scale since their entire company focuses on high end products while the other companies distract themselves by focusing on products that compete on price. Their competitors make lots of worse level products in every line be it phone or computer than Apple. While Apple does not spend time designing anything that is not in the near state of the art. They may continue to sell stuff that is not state of the art. But that is just manufacturing continue to make it. Apple is not spending time working on the 5S in 2015, though it continues to sell. While Samsung releases products in 2015 that they could have made int 2013. That is the distraction that Apple does not have.

Wait a minute, we're not talking theory here.

Apple chose to focus R&D on creating a new (and in my opinion unnecessary) machine instead of bringing the Air up to where it should be. But a lot of that focus was aesthetics-based: terribly thin and funky keyboard to make it fit, but colored to match the iPhone (matching accessories are "cool"). So, "pretty-looking" took a back seat to "better" (ie, a retina Air).

I'm not trying to diminish Apple's technical brilliance. They still make really, really great products. And I also appreciate their attention to aesthetics (this brought me to them in the first place).

But I feel you underestimate the power of their marketing team, and Apple's focus shift to "fashion" over function.

This has always been there to some extent, but they took it to 11 on the RMB, and the Mac Pro.

In that case, Apple KILLED a use case and category of machine and didn't replace it with another.

The current Mac Pro is not the equivalent of the old. But it is preeetty. It is also powerful, for what it is: A video pro machine.

In that case, it appears that making it look awesome (it does), and small (it is) took a back seat to what you can do with it. All the PCI cards and drives you had are useless. The "external" nature of it means if you were a Mac Pro user you now have to "rebuild" your entire infrastructure back up.

Buuut...it's small and the ports light up in the back and look how "cool" it looks both inside and outside!! Watch the keynote again and you'll see what I mean. It's an amazing achievement....that I didn't need. What I needed was a Mac Pro with the latest processors, TB and USB 3. Maybe a smaller case. That's it. EVERYBODY would have been happy with that and it would have sold like crazy. Hell, Apple could have sold the 2 side by side and treated the new Mac Pro like the cube.

Alas, the "prettier" machine won.

Here's to hoping that the "fashion" sense doesn't extend to the MacBook Pro line any more than it already has and they don't pull a Mac Pro on us. I already can't buy one anyway until they offer a 2TB+ SSD or aftermarket ones show up (my use case is admittedly narrow).

I would hate an MBP with one f'in port and the RMB's keyboard (regardless of it's technical marvel), even if it came in Gooooold.
 
The only PCs that I have ever seen being upgraded have been upgraded by me, because none of the PC users had the brains to upgrade them. Just because you can open the box and put in more RAM doesn't mean they have the brains to go on the Internet, find the right RAM, order it, open the box, remove the old RAM and put in new one. In all these cases I was also the one who ordered the parts.

And all the "nice" Windows laptops can't be upgraded anyway. And if you read the article, the market share isn't 5%. It's 7.5% world wide, which is 50 percent more. Or 12.8% in the USA, which is 156% more.
....and why do millions of aftermarket motherboards get sold then? Asus alone sells more motherboards than Apple sell systems.
 
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Exactly my point.

no....I've complained about aspects of it, but the pros out weighed the cons and became an owner.

I can say there was no drooling involved either ;)
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I strongly think MacBook Air is the winner mainly because it's cheaper ;)

True. It's much better value for money . And the new keyboard / one port is a deal breaker for some
 
Using Windows professionally, Windows 10 craps all over every previous version. Direct Access alone makes it essential over Windows 7 and I could write for hours about all the other stuff added or refined over previous versions.

Some people might prefer to use Windows 7 for whatever reason and that is fine, but it's a nonsense argument to even suggest Windows 7 (a 7+ year old OS) is better.

Let's nt forget that there are still people who claim Snow Leopard is better than El Capitan. Some people are just pretty odd and stuck in their ways.

You may be right. TBH I haven't had that much experience with it, because it's still so full of bugs that we won't roll it out. I don't see us doing it until at least SP1. That, and the fact that many of the specialized applications for our vertical are not yet officially supporting it.
 
You may be right. TBH I haven't had that much experience with it, because it's still so full of bugs that we won't roll it out. I don't see us doing it until at least SP1. That, and the fact that many of the specialized applications for our vertical are not yet officially supporting it.

This is the biggest thing: Windows 7 is mature and still supported. In an enterprise position, with Mission Critical production software that needs to be up and running as close to 24/7 as possible, you want to be running the most stable, and a mature OS.

Windows 10 has been great. I'm using it at home now. But at work we're stil a few years away from switching.
 
You may be right. TBH I haven't had that much experience with it, because it's still so full of bugs that we won't roll it out. I don't see us doing it until at least SP1. That, and the fact that many of the specialized applications for our vertical are not yet officially supporting it.

SP1? There are no service packs. What would be considered "SP1" was the 1511 updated which dropped in November.
 
When I think about what sort of sales volume the PC manufacturers are doing in the $1,200 laptop range, my concern for them is that they aren't selling enough individually and so they are going to struggle with economies of scale against Apple. And if you go with good and expensive for your PC and then it dies in two years, you are going to be upset as a consumer. I'm upset for my company and its purchase of Toshibas.

At suggestion of above, I just looked at Dell's website. The XPS looks great. But the top of line 15 inch with super sharp screen is $2,300. For 10% more I can get me a high end 15" Macbook Pro with similar specs. Dell needs to beat Apple's prices by more than 10% in my opinion.

To be fair that poster mentioned Latitudes not XPS's but Latitudes take the price up another notch but Dell corporate service is pretty awesome. The other nice thing I noticed about Latitudes is the Dock stays the same, I bought a dock for my '09 E6500, and it still works with my '11 6420, and it also works on our '15 6xxx at work. Latitudes in general are nice systems but they are not really ultrabooks.

I wonder if the PC decline includes custom rigs. I know myself i will never buy another manufactured PC.
OFC not I really hate the term rig no matter how many times people use it but I guess it's the best descriptor.

I think this is more a matter of getting older. I used to love putting my own computer together, was always upgrading something, I never even bothered putting the side panels on my case.

Recently I put together a gaming machine for the first time in about 5 years. I found it annoying and tedious to deal with the fiddly bits, route cables nicely, etc. I expect to leave the machine alone for the next 5 years and i really have no interest in opening the box again. But I definitely felt like the change was in me and not the market. The availability of parts is better than ever and there's thriving communities on line. I waited in line on black friday for some of the parts, and it was a very long line of people mostly 10-15 years younger than me. I definitely think the way you feel is a sign of you getting older.

I also used to run a linux desktop exclusively. Now I prefer something that just works even if it's not perfect. It doesn't mean linux is becoming a thing of the past though. I used to do embedded programming in assembly with PICs. Now I use an Arduino. It's an age thing.

I'll be 40 this year and I still put stuff together for myself, my kid, and anyone who asks but you're probably right you need to like to do it to build it yourself and age definitely effects "likes".
 
Not posting this in response to your post totally or to you specifically but I have noticed that a large number of negative Apple posts on here seem to come from UK posters. I just figure those posters are entrenched in the PC world and don't want to change and guess only feel somewhat threatened by the increasing numbers of Apple products/users to have them spend their time posting about Mac products they probably don't even own or use. Probably spend more time doing so than on PC specific threads or sites. I also will add that I have seen a lot of people on here buying Apple products from the UK recently, like the Watch in particular.

With the exception of my 6+ phone I use my Apple products at home and the outside world doesn't see them. I use them because I love the ease of use and the look and feel of them. Don't need to impress anyone. While there probably are people who buy them thinking they are "status symbols" of some sort, I don't think in any way the vast majority of people do. They just like the look and usability of them. And if they didn't work well for them, I seriously doubt they would be upgrading to newer Apple products. I had my 4S phone and my iPad2 (non-retina) for a number of years and just recently upgraded when I felt the technology offered something that I decided was worth it for me.

Apple products do look cool. They spend a lot of time designing them to be sleek and have the OS work well. I don't read anything else into it.

It is in Apple's DNA to make their devices look good. I love that about them.

The issue is that lately this is being done at the expense of functionality like never before.

Today, Apple devices are DEFINITELY status symbols. That does not mean that that is ALL they are; the devices are well-built, and well thought-out.

But Apple is throwing all their effort into the (relatively fickle) mass-market and the luxury market.

The difference between, say, a Mercedes Benz and an iPhone is that the latter is comparably more affordable as a luxury item. When it comes to Macs (laptops in particular), the gap between luxury and not increases exponentially.

For example, an iMac remains a (relatively) good value for what you get. But it is the only Mac that I do not consider overpriced vs performance/capability. I still wouldn't buy it because I prefer having the ability to upgrade my machine's storage and RAM, not have upgrade the WHOLE thing. So a tower iMac would be my machine of choice. Alas, it's never going to happen outside of a hackingtosh (which I just don't want to do). But I digress.

I'd love to hear a survey that has both "why choose Apple" and "why not choose Samsung" instead.

In other words, what does Apple give an individual that it's competitors do not, and vice versa, and why did an individual go with choice A or B, while being aware (or despite) of it all.

For me (regarding iPhone), Samsung (Note 5) does everything (except force click whatever) Apple does and more, without iOS limitations (which is THE single most important factor in my decision).
 
I don't have to imagine. I can go to the Apple Store today and see the best computers on the market bar-none.
While this may be true, there are things that Apple just isn't doing that other manufacturers are.

But that being said, I would still choose a mac for just the OS and the trackpad over any windows computer.
 
I should restate. Half an hour for any given issue or some basics. Not everything, no way, that would take much longer and having to research each issue.

Have I ever had to do that? Yes! So many times for different issues and yes, fixing the issues takes far longer than half an hour. That is just research. There is a reason I want some people to use a tablet, chromebook etc.. just anything that they cannot kill. I just ran into someone that has been using a computer for almost twenty years and said they don't know how to resize a window my grabbing it. What!? That is day one type of knowledge.

I have done countless formats because their system is just so messed up it was the only hope. It is also a lot of fun trying to help someone that really will not listen to what is important. Most of these issues are for people that are careless and have no idea how to maintain their system. There will be a time I will not have hours to maintain someones system (they are close) I just do not understand not learning more basics are just doing research. Have an issue, look it up. I still have to do that because there are always new issues.

The current people are good about not getting malware etc... on it yet I still have to do backups, updates, scans because they never do for some reason. Their file system is also a complete mess. Order people, order!!!

You obviously know your way around computing, especially the differing platforms. That said older users, over say 30 or 40 years old, that have come around to computing aren't as likely to be naturally savvy to understanding computer operations as say a majority of younger users. I became involved with computers when I was about 16 myself and almost now for 40 years I've seen a myriad of users on differing platforms during this period. I admit I became an Apple fanboy not with the Apple II series but at the moment I saw Ridley Scott's Macintosh commercial during the Super Bowl in 1984. When I first actually got to use it soon thereafter, I saw the light. This was a computer that truly was easy and intuitive enough that just about anyone could sit down and use it.

Even after Jobs was mesmerized by Gates offer to port Microsoft's suite of productivity apps to the Mac and gave up the keys to the kingdom so that Microsoft could produce Windows, I still felt that the Mac's OS was the better of the two. Over the years as the Mac struggled and Windows thrived it has become more apparent to others also that the Mac is the way to go, especially after Apple switched to OS X. After you use Windows for a while, you realize how much work it takes just to navigate around and utilize the different aspects of the OS and its integration with itself. Granted, over the years Microsoft has tweaked, tuned, and redone the interface with mixed results. But as I stare at my iMac's screen right now, it looks and feels almost the same as the first time I fired up the original 128Kb Macintosh in 1984. Its essence is almost seductive. In fact it's been called my mistress on more than one occasion!

With Windows I never felt that way after using it. I always felt like it was fighting me every step of the way using it. It's almost as if it were a cheap whore. You had to make sure it was using some sort of protection every time you used it because if you didn't, it would become infected and cause you heartache and misery. For the uninitiated, it is a brutal wakeup call when they startup their computer or browser only to discover it ain't gonna happen! They become angry due to their own malfeasance and then resentful and betrayed because they feel what has transpired shouldn't have. Good, bad, right, or wrong it shouldn't but it does. A person should be able to turn on a computer and just use it and then go on their merry way. The reality of this world is that certain things are true and one of them is that your computer needs protection, especially if it uses Windows. Too many people find out the hard way because they either don't know or they don't comprehend this truth.

People will be people. They are like water. They will find and migrate towards the easiest and the least resistant path possible. So over the years people have discovered or have been shown the way to the more seamless and comforting operating system known as OS X or as I like to think of it as, "The Macintosh Way!"
 
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Laughing at some of the comments on this thread. 7.5% market share versus 92.5% market share for the Windows PCs is hardly anything to be proud of after nearly 40 years selling the Mac.
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Where I work we use PCs (lately Toshiba laptops for the most part). The Toshibas have pretty much all had problems. And they have terrible screens. And they cost about the same price as a Macbook Pro, or at least a Macbook Air. And considering the work we do the couple of hundred dollar differences for a piece of mission critical equipment is irrelevant. I occasionally have fairly senior executives running to their local Staples or Kinkos to find a computer they can use for a few moments because their laptop has failed. One event like this kills the value of saving $300 price difference between the hardware. And keep in mind that if we had bought Macs we'd be expecting 4 or more years of service from the hardware.

Honestly I'm not sure that PCs can stay in business for high level equipment. They have to skimp because they sell on price. But the users don't actually care about price when they have important stuff to get done.

Presumably you missed all the reports over the past few years about the multitude of problems people have experienced with their Macs and how Apple doesn't give a fig about those customers unless it generates enough bad publicity or a class action lawsuit for Apple to acknowledge the problem and do something about it .

You can't compare a £300 Windows laptop with a £2000 MBP. In my experience like for like Apple computers are no more reliable and/or robust than an equivalent Windows PC. They might seem better because they're sold in trendy Apple stores or have nice packaging but sadly they're not any better. Let's not forget that Apple kit is made by the cheapest suppliers and the cheapest Chinese manufacturers.
 
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Exactly my point :eek:.
When we looked at what she needed the Dell and Lenovo were in the same range as the MBP.
Don't get me wrong, those machines are very nice. Just with the "price point" she now has more options.
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It can be done. I don't pay anything however I do use the built in Windows stuff. As for spending time and money to get back to normal ops, I don't need to. Normal ops is my daily norm. Run CCleaner 1x month and schedule a weekly scan. I also apply a lot of common sense.

That's my point. "Normal ops" for you is not normal for most Mac users. They might, possibly, run and download a free virus and malware checker on the occasional report of malicious activity reported in the wild just to make sure their precarious ways haven't got them in trouble. I still have some Mac users to this day try to explain to me with disdain that OS X is not like Windows and therefore virus protection is really not needed! However their arrogance has been bred, in way, by having been spoiled by Apple's closed and protective nature. I do have to admit though, that it is nice that as a Mac user, I don't have to be Windows "normal."
 
This of course does not take into account.

PC's put together by people themselves.
PC components purchased to update/improve/upgrade existing machines.
The fact that due to the about a PC can last way longer and still perform up to date far longer than a Mac.

I don't mind surveys but they almost always distort.

If PC's were glued shut and when they got slow you bought a new one, then PC sales might rise.
If Macs could have new CPU's, Graphics Cards, More memory and drives fitted by the user, then more people may hold onto them longer without needing to buy a whole new machine.

Honestly only RAM is what over 50% of users would sell-upgrade. Most people will not open up their machines and start changing hard drives, GPU's, etc...
 
This is probably one of the reasons why Macs haven't had aggressive redesigns for a while now. Why would they bother changing them when people are buying the current ones?
 
Honestly only RAM is what over 50% of users would sell-upgrade. Most people will not open up their machines and start changing hard drives, GPU's, etc...

Don't you think AMD and Nvidia sell many graphics cards to the public each year?
 
True. It's much better value for money . And the new keyboard / one port is a deal breaker for some
Agree about the one port solution , but for the new keyboard I think it just takes a few weeks to get accustomed.
I'm a little worried about the durability of the new keyboard butterfly mechanism.

Laughing at some of the comments on this thread. 7.5% market share versus 92.5% market share for the Windows PCs is hardly anything to be proud of after nearly 40 years selling the Mac.
who cares about a 92.5% market share mainly made by crappy cheap PCs ?
Apple is proud of its high quality products (and profits)
 
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Laughing at some of the comments on this thread. 7.5% market share versus 92.5% market share for the Windows PCs is hardly anything to be proud of after nearly 40 years selling the Mac.
Apple have never gone after market share but have concentrated on high profit margin sales. To grab a majority worldwide share they would need to compete with low end PCs that start from around the $300/£200 mark and there is hardly any profit to be made in that market segment.

They are already making more money than any other PC maker by selling to that lucrative 7.5% of the market and their share is growing every year so why change a strategy that seems to be working?
 
While this may be true, there are things that Apple just isn't doing that other manufacturers are.

But that being said, I would still choose a mac for just the OS and the trackpad over any windows computer.

I just don't get this OS business. I'm equally at home with OS X Windows or even Linux. They all do the same job equally well IMO. I think it's just about what you are used to plus people hate change.

As for the trackpad I wouldn't use one even if I was offered payment to do so - hateful thing, I sent mine back, mouse wins every time.
[doublepost=1452857918][/doublepost]who cares about a 92.5% market share mainly made by crappy cheap PCs ?
Apple is proud of its high quality products (and profits)

So leaving your snobs hat off for a moment can you tell us all what it is you can do on your Apple PC that you wouldn't be able to do on a Windows PC? :rolleyes:

 

So leaving your snobs hat off for a moment can you tell us all what it is you can do on your Apple PC that you wouldn't be able to do on a Windows PC? :rolleyes:
I just don't want anything like that in my house, having to deal with that in my office (sometimes).
You like it ? Go buy one.
Apple doesn't force you to buy a Mac.
 
Laughing at some of the comments on this thread. 7.5% market share versus 92.5% market share for the Windows PCs is hardly anything to be proud of after nearly 40 years selling the Mac.
[doublepost=1452818642][/doublepost]

Presumably you missed all the reports over the past few years about the multitude of problems people have experienced with their Macs and how Apple doesn't give a fig about those customers unless it generates enough bad publicity or a class action lawsuit for Apple to acknowledge the problem and do something about it .

You can't compare a £300 Windows laptop with a £2000 MBP. In my experience like for like Apple computers are no more reliable and/or robust than an equivalent Windows PC. They might seem better because they're sold in trendy Apple stores or have nice packaging but sadly they're not any better. Let's not forget that Apple kit is made by the cheapest suppliers and the cheapest Chinese manufacturers.

As you get older, you have less and less time to tinker, Apple offers a product that just works, is simple and has great customer support. That is why people who can afford them, but them.

In my experience, its the Customer support that is the huge winner.

If you are a young IT student etc, I think your foolish using macs, ie, use that money to have fun, and also learn about computers/software/networks by building your own.

I do both, for hassle free experience I got my macs, for fun, I build water cooled PCs. Agree with you that inside, the components are nothing special, aftermarket PC gear is far superior, though an apple product will never OC, its build for stability.

The illusion of reliability is the support behind them. Also Apple users look after thier products alot better than PC users, the reliabilty due to hardware is a myth. The ability to tailor and fine tune an OS to just select hardware is very true, though OS X is getting buggier due to the annual major updates, the dev team is struggleing to meet markertings deadlines and hence almost beta releases at times, if OS X were to move to a 2 year cycle, things would improve in a major way
 
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