Apple May Briefly Drop to World's Third Largest Smartphone Maker For First Time Since 2011

[I7guy]

Riiight so because things have done ok thus far that means they will continue to!? RIM were riding high selling people phones at one point, how are their financials now?

According to the anything can happen. Perfect example. Samsung and Huawei could go out of business tomorrow. Of course no one knows the future, but citing Apple as an example of RIM, is just as likely as citing Samsung or Huawei as an example of RIM. Not recognizing that is observational bias.

I'd love to hear your theory on how the blame for the tanking iPad sales can be attributed to somebody who passed away a little over a year after the original model shipped

I already told you my view.

 

[cgsnipinva]

Riiight so because things have done ok thus far that means they will continue to!? RIM were riding high selling people phones at one point, how are their financials now?

I'd love to hear your theory on how the blame for the tanking iPad sales can be attributed to somebody who passed away a little over a year after the original model shipped

You are correct - but the fact is they have done way more than "Ok" and there is no alternative that will shake up the current dynamic on the horizon. Huwaei, Samsung et al are just doing different versions of the iPhone using an open source OS that anyone can use.

When the iPhone came alone - it was a seashift in mobile phones given it created the App platform and started subsuming many functions once reserved solely for the PC/Mac/Desktop.

 

[Abazigal]

I understand that the competition among Android is big. But we've come to a point where Android is on par or in many respects even better than the iPhone. Most of the flagship androids had better specs and amoled screens already. Their services are much better on Android. Once people trade in their iphone for an Android they'll realize that there isnt that much difference except in price and better screens and services. Many of my friends have switched and don't regret it for a bit. Some of them were hardcore Apple fans before. As messages is hardly used here (most people use whatsapp) and spotify is the standard. Together with unlimited photo-upload on Google, google now and google maps and all the other things google is offering, its hard to stay on iPhone.

The grass always did seem greener on the other side. People have been making the same arguments since day 1 about how people will eventually flee the Apple ecosystem because of price or some other supposed shortcoming and guess what? Apple continues to sell more iPhones year after year.

If you frequent the android forum on Reddit, you will find your fair share of users who are equally frustrated with android, and express their desire to switch over to the iPhone. You have people who are sick of google releasing one messaging service after another and who desire for a unified messaging app like iMessage, or timely software updates, or are tired of bloated software skins or some other issue ailing android phones.

Not to mention that Google services such as photos is also available on iOS as well, so people staying with the iPhone get the best of both worlds.

So if you and your friends switch from iOS to android, and enough people do the opposite, it all cancels out. Apple will still have a ton of people buying their products, and it will all still work out in the end.

 

[Abazigal]

I'm going to tie my response to both your post together for brevity. You're both discussing profit from a perspective which I thought I made clear wasn't my issue: "My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster" <--- That comes from the comment section. That's where the issue lies. What you two are talking about (articles about market share) comes from the tech press. That would be a complaint to register with sites like MR. So to be a bit more clear. Profit is not the issue for me. Commenters using it as a counter in every discussion (like the bolded) as if it's "the answer" to end all answers is my issue.

That's because market share is the only argument android OEMs can use to make it seem like they are anything but losing the smartphone race. And it's a pretty weak one because ultimately, they are not charities who flood the market with cheap phones out of the kindness of their hearts.

If the posters here are sick of "profits" being used as a blanket rebuttal to every single argument they make, then learn to counter this argument and phrase their responses in a way such that it cannot be countered by someone going "but profits". It's going to be a challenge though, because I have never seen anyone actually do so successfully. But they are certainly welcome to try.

To be clear, I would only use profits to counter the fallacious "market share" argument. I have my own other answers for people who would attempt to argue that Apple is behind in some other area such as technology or losing the plot with a "questionable" move like the homepods.

We really should have some sort of FAQ here where common misunderstandings about Apple are debunked, so people don't keep perpetuating the same fallacies about Apple unless it brings something new to the discussion.

 

[Abazigal]

Are you assuming that people will continue to be happy handing over $1k for a phone?

I've owned every single iPhone, until the 7, I'm no longer paying such silly premiums for what is small evolutions , had the price remained around $800 I would still be upgrading each year. $1k + I'm out, I would not be suprised if many others will also think this way. At least the SE model is available and looking like the best iPhone going forward without being ripped off.

And it's not about affording, that is not the issue, the constant prices rises for phones and AppleCare no longer make the iPhone a device that represents value. Heck the 6S and SE are better units due to a headphone jack for me

Let's see.

You speak as though the rumoured $1k iPhone will be the only iPhone in the market. My guess is that it is but one of three offerings, with the other two following current iPhone pricing trends. There will still be cheaper options available if you don't wish to spend that much money.

But to your question, yes, I believe there will be no shortage of people willing to spend that much money on an iPhone.

 

[Analog Kid]

But the OEM's we're talking about produce other stuff phones are a side business that's not really the case with Apple, Apple in 2017 is phones.

In 2016, the mobile division accounted for about half of Samsung's revenue.
In 2016, the consumer division accounted for a third of Huawei's revenue.

In 2016, iPhone and iPad accounted for 3/4 of Apple's revenue.

So yeah, it's an outsized chunk of Apple, but it's certainly not a side business for the others...

 

[69Mustang]

To be clear, I would only use profits to counter the fallacious "market share" argument. I have my own other answers for people who would attempt to argue that Apple is behind in some other area such as technology or losing the plot with a "questionable" move like the homepods.

We really should have some sort of FAQ here where common misunderstandings about Apple are debunked, so people don't keep perpetuating the same fallacies about Apple unless it brings something new to the discussion.

Where's the fallacious market share argument you were responding to here? You're response here is exactly what I was referencing when I was talking about misplaced "but profit".

 

[Abazigal]

Where's the fallacious market share argument you were responding to here? You're response here is exactly what I was referencing when I was talking about misplaced "but profit".
View attachment 712743

I believe I have already addressed it in an earlier response.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-time-since-2011.2060987/page-8#post-24889389

 

[69Mustang]

I believe I have already addressed it in an earlier response.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-time-since-2011.2060987/page-8#post-24889389

How is that addressing your claim that you only bring up profit to counter a fallacious market share argument? There wasn't a market share argument in that quote, fallacious or otherwise. That quote said competition is good for the consumer. Hey, if you believe something was fallacious in that comment, who am I to disavow you of that notion.

 

[I7guy]

In 2016, the mobile division accounted for about half of Samsung's revenue.
In 2016, the consumer division accounted for a third of Huawei's revenue.

In 2016, iPhone and iPad accounted for 3/4 of Apple's revenue.

So yeah, it's an outsized chunk of Apple, but it's certainly not a side business for the others...

Didn’t 2016 include an 8B dollar loss from the note 7 fiasco? And if after that the mobile phone division still was 50% of revenue and their fab business was going gangbusters, no other division made any money?

 

[daniel4]

There's always a dip.

The calm before the storm.

 

[9081094]

Apple. Doesn’t. Care. About. Market. share. How is this not obvious by now?

It should. Going to third place means nr1 and 2 spot are Android. Soon you'll see made for Android first and build for iPhone as an afterthought. Its already happening and the same can be said for the mac. Meaning extra money for accessories that not really take the advantage of certain OS specific features.
[doublepost=1502613226][/doublepost]

You speak as though the rumoured $1k iPhone will be the only iPhone in the market. My guess is that it is but one of three offerings, with the other two following current iPhone pricing trends. There will still be cheaper options available if you don't wish to spend that much money.

But to your question, yes, I believe there will be no shortage of people willing to spend that much money on an iPhone.

If Apple wants to stay relevant in the phone business they should price the soon to be released iPhone 8 the same as the iPhone 7 plus is now. Price the iPhone 7s and 7s plus as the 6s. Apple would still make tons of profits and grab back some market share they definitely need to stay relevant in the phone business. There are lots of vendors who already offer the same if not better the fabled iPhone 8 has to offer.

 

[jmmott4]

Please get access o

 

[ach1t3cton]

The article is somewhat misleading imho. Huawei is after Samsung not Apple.

To the average Android user Huawei offers better built quality, better specs, better design and more useful features than any of Samsungs offerings and for nearly half the price. It's a no brainer really...

I expect Samsung's market share to collapse within the next 2-3 years.

 

[cgsnipinva]

It should. Going to third place means nr1 and 2 spot are Android. Soon you'll see made for Android first and build for iPhone as an afterthought. Its already happening and the same can be said for the mac. Meaning extra money for accessories that not really take the advantage of certain OS specific features.
[doublepost=1502613226][/doublepost]

Android has been holding most of the market for years and application developers still make for iOS first before Android because of Android's less than stellar development environment, maddening fragmentation, and the fact they don't make as much money on Apps. Your statement simply does not hold up with years of evidence. Major Apps still come out on iOS first and the iOS versions tend to be the better version.

When the iPhone 7s/7PlusS and iPhone 8 come out there will be an increase in sales and market share ---- disproving your theory.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Going to third place means nr1 and 2 spot are Android.

Soon you'll see made for Android first and build for iPhone as an afterthought.

It doesn't matter which "spot" Apple is in.

There are 100 smartphone manufacturers.

99 of them make Android phones.

1 of them makes the iPhone.

And developers still make apps for the iPhone... sometimes exclusively. It's been like this for years.

Being the #2 or #3 manufacturer out of 100 doesn't matter. Apple's ranking on the chart isn't what developers are looking at. They like the iOS development tools and the fact that they make lots of money from iOS.

I know it doesn't make sense to you... but the iPhone is a very popular platform despite there being vastly more Android phones on Earth.

The smartphone market is fluid... some manufacturers will go up the list... some will go down.

But here's something to remember: Apple was never #1... nor have they ever had an appreciable amount of market share or install base.

Common sense would say Apple's App Store should have never been popular based on those facts.

But it is. And it will continue to be.

Sorry to burst your bubble... but Apple being the #3 smartphone manufacturer won't make developers suddenly drop iOS and start developing for Android exclusively.

If that was the case... developers would have already done that since there are tons more Android devices on Earth.

But like I said... there's more to this than just the ranking, market share, install base, etc.

 

[Winni]

No problem. Just rate the profit margin.

Ah. So it's an accepted fact that Apple rips off its customers by selling them over-priced products. Because, obviously, they could sell them at much lower prices and still make a profit.

Must be an American thing to think that this is absolutely okay -- and then wait for days in line to give that company your money.
[doublepost=1502635329][/doublepost]

They provide very good value for the money. No surprise there.
But i don't think they are competing for the same customers.

No, they don't. To use the words of a former BMW manager: "We don't want every baker apprentice to be able to afford a BMW..." ("Wir wollen nicht daß sich jeder Bäckerlehrling einen BMW leisten kann.") Apple wants to milk the big cash cows. The other companies are happy selling their products to people that have less money to spend but still live in the modern world.

 

[cgsnipinva]

Ah. So it's an accepted fact that Apple rips off its customers by selling them over-priced products. Because, obviously, they could sell them at much lower prices and still make a profit.

Must be an American thing to think that this is absolutely okay -- and then wait for days in line to give that company your money.
[doublepost=1502635329][/doublepost]

No, they don't. To use the words of a former BMW manager: "We don't want every baker apprentice to be able to afford a BMW..." ("Wir wollen nicht daß sich jeder Bäckerlehrling einen BMW leisten kann.") Apple wants to milk the big cash cows. The other companies are happy selling their products to people that have less money to spend but still live in the modern world.

A little bit of economic ignorance in this post.

Apple does not rip off customers as no one -- either Apple or anyone else --- is forcing people to buy their products. People are free to buy them or not. Its not an "American thing" its an economic rule of the free market. People buy what they want to buy or not. Apple is able to charge higher prices because there is a sufficient market that believes their products (hardware, software, and services) are worth the price difference. Why would a company sell its product or service at a price below what the market is willing to pay? Great way to go out of business.

I think a more accurate argument about this dynamic is that the other companies sell their phones at a discount because they cannot get more for them (i.e. they don't offer the value to compete in Apple's market space). It is obvious that market does not see their hardware combined with Android as offering an equal value proposition to what Apple is offering.

 

[santaliqueur]

Yes, yes I did. To mock those who have no other contribution to give other than the recitation of the tried and true fallback answer to every (intentional hyperbole) post: profit. So yeah, technically you're right (the best kind of right). Contextually, not so much.

Oh man. So you admit that you were the first one to bring it up, but only in order to make fun of the people who hadn't brought it up yet? Hilarious. I enjoy when people try SO HARD to justify themselves being right. Yours isn't the worst I've seen, but it was still pretty creative. At least you quoted Futurama.
[doublepost=1502636400][/doublepost]

Ah. So it's an accepted fact that Apple rips off its customers by selling them over-priced products. Because, obviously, they could sell them at much lower prices and still make a profit..

You could take a lower salary and still afford to eat, right? But you try to get the most money you can? Now you know what it's like to run a business. Same principle.

If your first response is to bash America for the things you don't understand, you might be confused for a while.

 

[69Mustang]

Oh man. So you admit that you were the first one to bring it up, but only in order to make fun of the people who hadn't brought it up yet? Hilarious. I enjoy when people try SO HARD to justify themselves being right. Yours isn't the worst I've seen, but it was still pretty creative. At least you quoted Futurama.

So hard? Wasn't that hard. I mockingly said someone would take a quote totally unrelated to profit and answer with "but profit". The very next comment after mine proved me prescient.

 

[santaliqueur]

So hard? Wasn't that hard. I mockingly said someone would take a quote totally unrelated to profit and answer with "but profit". The very next comment after mine proved me prescient.

Your repeated posts about being right? Trying pretty hard.

Profit IS the most important thing. Predicting people will talk about that (but making fun of them because you don't understand why it's the most important thing) does not make you right.

 

[UTHorn]

Don't think to lightly about huawei. Im from the netherlands and have seen huawei taking market share in a very rapid time over here. Two years ago i would laugh about huawei but since then I've seen many of my friends buying a huawei with better specs and same quality built then the iPhone. There are lots of people we don't just buy blindly Apple anymore and can get the same or better from huawei for a fraction of the price. Huawei had dual camera before Apple and their cameras make the same or even better photo's then the iPhone 7 plus. It's even possible to adjust depth after you took a photo on a huawei. I think huawei will pose an even greater threat to Apple than Samsung over time. Their ability to innovate is beyond of apple's. More and more people over here realize that you can get more for half the prize Apple is offering. It's only a matter of time Apple has to adjust its prices to stay relevant in a fast changing world. If the iPhone 8 will be above $ 1000 people will buy them for the brand name not for the possibilities it has to offer.

It would appear to me that Huawei saves a lot of money on design R&D by basically stealing from Apple. That phone looks damn near identical in many respects. It may be an excellent phone and I am not arguing that, but damn they have no shame in design theft and even color choice.

 

[mib1800]

It would appear to me that Huawei saves a lot of money on design R&D by basically stealing from Apple. That phone looks damn near identical in many respects. It may be an excellent phone and I am not arguing that, but damn they have no shame in design theft and even color choice.

I don't think Apple spend a lot of R&D in coming up with "rectangle" design. Conversely Huawei didn't save anything in adopting a "rectangle" design. If you look closely, other than the obvious "rectangle" Huawei design has nicer finishes e.g. chamfer edges and smaller bezel.

Other than above, the innards are totally different.

 

[cgsnipinva]

I don't think Apple spend a lot of R&D in coming up with "rectangle" design. Conversely Huawei didn't save anything in adopting a "rectangle" design. If you look closely, other than the obvious "rectangle" Huawei design has nicer finishes e.g. chamfer edges and smaller bezel.

Other than above, the innards are totally different.

Well its not just a retangular design - there is the rounded corners et al that make it look a lot like an iPhone. There are a lot of retangular phones that don't look like an iPhone.

And yes the innnards are different and that is where Apple differentiates itself.