Apple May Briefly Drop to World's Third Largest Smartphone Maker For First Time Since 2011

[Abazigal]

Outside of your misapplication of disingenuous, you miss the point entirely. Believe it or not, there is such a thing called addressing the topic at hand. To simply ignore the topic being discussed and force one of your own is just plain rude. Which is exactly what you did in that post below my first post in this thread. You turned a post about the positive aspects of competition creating a better smartphone market for consumers into another "but Apple makes all the profit" meme as if Apple's profit had anything to do with the subject of that post. It was about something being good for consumers and you flipped it into totally unrelated proselytizing about Apple's profit. Didn't address the subject matter of the post, just pushed the gas pedal through the firewall screaming profit at the top of your lungs. Don't believe me, go back see for yourself.

It is entirely possible to discuss market share (or any topic for that matter) based on it's merits as a topic alone.

Perhaps, but I have never actually seen a thread on market share actually go anywhere besides bashing Apple for supposedly having the lesser market share. Never mind that Apple has the edge in every other metric despite its smaller market share in the smartphone market.

The reality I am also seeing is that increased competition also has its downsides. For one, OEMs seem more concerned with churning out one smartphone model after another and less so about properly supporting them with software updates and big fixes. This race to the bottom also means slimmer profits for everyone but Apple and Samsung, which also limits the extent to which they can innovate in terms of non-hardware-related features. It's easy to cram more ram into a phone because that doesn't exactly need a ton of R&D, but past a certain point I don't think it really matters whether your phone has 6gb of ram or 8. Not so easy to implement a feature such as force touch which requires years to get right, and for you to control both the hardware and software layer and the support of app developers in order to achieve the desired benefit.

The only thing competition seems to be good for is cheaper prices, which doesn't necessarily translate into better products for the consumers at the end of the day, and it's not hard to see how slimmer margins has a compounding effect on the aforementioned issues.

If anything, I would argue that the market needs fewer competitors, not more, because what I see on the Android front are crabs in a bucket. The more they try to climb to the top, the more they step on one another's heads and push them (and consequently themselves) further down. More competition isn't always a good thing, especially when you are not getting more of what you want, but instead getting more problems to deal with.

This benefits of improved competition you are talking about - it's all a lie.

 

[Analog Kid]

It's worth the mention that Samsung runs a semiconductor manufacturing business that drives most of their profits, is funded in no small part by Apple, and requires massive R&D investment to maintain. Huawei has a cellular infrastructure and carrier services business that's almost twice the size of their consumer electronics business. Volkswagen has a huge amount of research ahead of them to figure out how to make their cars as clean as they've been saying they were for years. Johnson & Johnson, uh..., makes shampoo...

Yeah, I can't really explain all of it...

 

[santaliqueur]

A discussion about profits in a thread related to an article about profits? Makes sense. A discussion about profits to usurp the topic of market share in an article about market share? Narrative shifting, threadjacking, deflection. You choose.

Weird since you were the first one to mention profits.

 

[Analog Kid]

A discussion about profits in a thread related to an article about profits? Makes sense. A discussion about profits to usurp the topic of market share in an article about market share? Narrative shifting, threadjacking, deflection. You choose. Either is an apt description. Perfect example is right below my comment you quoted.

Not to pile on here, but once the suggestion is made that unit sales rankings say something about the health and future of a company, pointing out that companies eat profits not packing slips seems appropriate.

I'm as frustrated with off topic posting as anyone, but since the editors weren't prudent enough to point out the limitation of unit sales as a metric, it seems like leaving a thread entirely to a discussion of sales count is a disservice. It should be a short and boring thread, but it turns into an echo chamber of ignorance.




Correction: it's been so long that I'd forgotten the original article did make a brief mention (and technically made profits unambiguously "on topic"...)

For what it's worth, Apple probably isn't too concerned about where it ranks in smartphone shipments. ... Second, Apple cashes in the overwhelming majority of profits in the smartphone industry.

 

[69Mustang]

Not to pile on here, but once the suggestion is made that unit sales rankings say something about the health and future of a company, pointing out that companies eat profits not packing slips seems appropriate.

I'm as frustrated with off topic posting as anyone, but since the editors weren't prudent enough to point out the limitation of unit sales as a metric, it seems like leaving a thread entirely to a discussion of sales count is a disservice. It should be a short and boring thread, but it turns into an echo chamber of ignorance.

My complaint isn't about off topic posts per se. My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster. It's as if their brains are stuck in neutral and can only form thoughts about Apple's profit. It's about as insightful and unoriginal as DOOMED, Steve would never, or Tim needs to go (especially since under his helm Apple gets massive PROFITS - sorry couldn't resist)

People can post what they like. I'm certainly not the arbiter of what's acceptable to post. I'd just like to see something, anything more creative than durr, profit.
[doublepost=1502515691][/doublepost]

Weird since you were the first one to mention profits.

Yes, yes I did. To mock those who have no other contribution to give other than the recitation of the tried and true fallback answer to every (intentional hyperbole) post: profit. So yeah, technically you're right (the best kind of right). Contextually, not so much.

 

[Analog Kid]

My complaint isn't about off topic posts per se. My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster. It's as if their brains are stuck in neutral and can only form thoughts about Apple's profit. It's about as insightful and unoriginal as DOOMED, Steve would never, or Tim needs to go (especially since under his helm Apple gets massive PROFITS - sorry couldn't resist)

People can post what they like. I'm certainly not the arbiter of what's acceptable to post. I'd just like to see something, anything more creative than durr, profit.

I agree that it's an easy and often inappropriate goto, but its natural context to any market share discussion where the implication is that someone else's sales are a threat to Apple

And, in correction to my previous post, the editors did make that point:

For what it's worth, Apple probably isn't too concerned about where it ranks in smartphone shipments. ... Second, Apple cashes in the overwhelming majority of profits in the smartphone industry.

So you're off the hook as being first...

 

[michelepri]

Well, Apple has been concentrating a lot on things like carpool singing shows and rappers, while Huawei has been concentrating on making excellent phones that many people I know here in Europe b ought or are buying, some of them dropping the iPhone. People are tired of the lack of innovation, and mostly going through a ruined Itunes program to do most things that should not belong there. And then also dual SIM, memory expansion... the list is huge, Huawei really makes better phones according to many.

 

[flameproof]

I was never a fan of Huawei (for no particular reason) but I heard they switch now to pure google android - that may make me switch too.

I might also have a look at iPhones, after they come with Android models.

 

[Apache1]

I really don't understand why you saying this so proudly. The reason Apple is making such an huge amount of money is because they let their buyers pay too much for their products. Apple has lost its crown as making the best mobile phone since last your but still wears the crown for most expensive phones. You could get so much better these days for almost half the price elsewhere.

The price of Android phones have no choice but to drop because of the numerous competitors and so many that flood the market because they realize it's not going to succeed so they give them away at tremendous losses and people think what a great deal. The iPhone is really a computer for most people now so they don't have that expense any longer.

 

[charlituna]

Third, rank doesn't matter, not even a little.

What matters is how many are sold, not in comparison to anyone else, and how much profit is made from those sales.

It's important to note the time period that they are referring to. Apples shipments of the iPhone are always much much less in the months being tracked because a new phone comes out right after that quarter in the beginning of October. So even though this company might be exceeding Apple in shipments the bar is potentially extremely low. so we would actually have to look at exact numbers to determine whether or not this is impressive. Also keep in mind that shipment does not equal sale. We would need to look at whether or not these are shipments to stores that then need to turn over each unit or are they shipments directly to the customer to determine whether the Importance of the numbers.

 

[cgsnipinva]

My complaint isn't about off topic posts per se. My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster. It's as if their brains are stuck in neutral and can only form thoughts about Apple's profit. It's about as insightful and unoriginal as DOOMED, Steve would never, or Tim needs to go (especially since under his helm Apple gets massive PROFITS - sorry couldn't resist)

People can post what they like. I'm certainly not the arbiter of what's acceptable to post. I'd just like to see something, anything more creative than durr, profit.
[doublepost=1502515691][/doublepost]
Yes, yes I did. To mock those who have no other contribution to give other than the recitation of the tried and true fallback answer to every (intentional hyperbole) post: profit. So yeah, technically you're right (the best kind of right). Contextually, not so much.

But profit is important because its not just about money. Profit supports increased R&D spending. Te ability to generate profit at a good price point means the producer is offering a product willing to buy because it offers the technology and features they consider of value. You claim the other phone manufacturers are providing "newer tech" but then they can't sell their phone at a higher price for more profit -- its quite possible that "new tech/feature" isn't that valued by the market. Maybe the iPhone strikes the right balance of meaningful technology and features they are willing top pay for which results in.......wait for it...... profit.

I can also turn that argument against your position by always hearing about "market share". Well if you have the most market share and make little to no profit -- or god help us -- a loss - how long can you hold that position? Not long unless you print money. WHat we have seen is that there is a churn in the "leaders" of that market segment - first it was Samsung, then HTC, now Huwaei. They don't take much if anything away from Apple's share, revenues or profit -- but they really end up beating the other Android producers in the low end. Hell Samsung phone sales are mostly in the low end of the market - not their top end high dollar end.

So Revenue and Profit are important.

 

[lowendlinux]

First thing first...none of the Chinese OEM's are a threat to Apple they're a threat to other Android OEM's.

Perhaps, but I have never actually seen a thread on market share actually go anywhere besides bashing Apple for supposedly having the lesser market share. Never mind that Apple has the edge in every other metric despite its smaller market share in the smartphone market.

The reality I am also seeing is that increased competition also has its downsides. For one, OEMs seem more concerned with churning out one smartphone model after another and less so about properly supporting them with software updates and big fixes. This race to the bottom also means slimmer profits for everyone but Apple and Samsung, which also limits the extent to which they can innovate in terms of non-hardware-related features. It's easy to cram more ram into a phone because that doesn't exactly need a ton of R&D, but past a certain point I don't think it really matters whether your phone has 6gb of ram or 8. Not so easy to implement a feature such as force touch which requires years to get right, and for you to control both the hardware and software layer and the support of app developers in order to achieve the desired benefit.

The only thing competition seems to be good for is cheaper prices, which doesn't necessarily translate into better products for the consumers at the end of the day, and it's not hard to see how slimmer margins has a compounding effect on the aforementioned issues.

If anything, I would argue that the market needs fewer competitors, not more, because what I see on the Android front are crabs in a bucket. The more they try to climb to the top, the more they step on one another's heads and push them (and consequently themselves) further down. More competition isn't always a good thing, especially when you are not getting more of what you want, but instead getting more problems to deal with.

This benefits of improved competition you are talking about - it's all a lie.

Market share and it's trends are a legitimate point of criticism if taken in context of history. Companies need to know where to make long term investments and market share is an important data point in those decisions. Secondly we all see things through our own lens I don't want Android OEM's to worry about long term support I want them to worry about building the best phone they can and let me worry about support I've got that.

But profit is important because its not just about money. Profit supports increased R&D spending. Te ability to generate profit at a good price point means the producer is offering a product willing to buy because it offers the technology and features they consider of value. You claim the other phone manufacturers are providing "newer tech" but then they can't sell their phone at a higher price for more profit -- its quite possible that "new tech/feature" isn't that valued by the market. Maybe the iPhone strikes the right balance of meaningful technology and features they are willing top pay for which results in.......wait for it...... profit.

I can also turn that argument against your position by always hearing about "market share". Well if you have the most market share and make little to no profit -- or god help us -- a loss - how long can you hold that position? Not long unless you print money. WHat we have seen is that there is a churn in the "leaders" of that market segment - first it was Samsung, then HTC, now Huwaei. They don't take much if anything away from Apple's share, revenues or profit -- but they really end up beating the other Android producers in the low end. Hell Samsung phone sales are mostly in the low end of the market - not their top end high dollar end.

So Revenue and Profit are important.

But the OEM's we're talking about produce other stuff phones are a side business that's not really the case with Apple, Apple in 2017 is phones.

 

[I7guy]

My complaint isn't about off topic posts per se. My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster. It's as if their brains are stuck in neutral and can only form thoughts about Apple's profit. It's about as insightful and unoriginal as DOOMED, Steve would never, or Tim needs to go (especially since under his helm Apple gets massive PROFITS - sorry couldn't resist)

People can post what they like. I'm certainly not the arbiter of what's acceptable to post. I'd just like to see something, anything more creative than durr, profit.
[doublepost=1502515691][/doublepost]
Yes, yes I did. To mock those who have no other contribution to give other than the recitation of the tried and true fallback answer to every (intentional hyperbole) post: profit. So yeah, technically you're right (the best kind of right). Contextually, not so much.

Interesting how this conversation devolved into THIS type of debate. The entire market share, revenue, profits,margin discussion is like a hamster going round on a wheel.

You would like to see something more creative than profit, and I'd like to see something more creative than market share.
[doublepost=1502545685][/doublepost]

Well, Apple has been concentrating a lot on things like carpool singing shows and rappers, while Huawei has been concentrating on making excellent phones that many people I know here in Europe b ought or are buying, some of them dropping the iPhone. People are tired of the lack of innovation, and mostly going through a ruined Itunes program to do most things that should not belong there. And then also dual SIM, memory expansion... the list is huge, Huawei really makes better phones according to many.

Apple is also concentrating on airpods, macs, watches, tablets etc. Their last quarter apple financial results do not jive with your observations. And which phone is "better" is purely subjective.

I say good luck to Huawei. Being supported by your carrier is a first step, but it's interesting they are also missing out on a big market by not going to VZW or Sprint.

 

[Rob_2811]

The problem that Apple is going to have moving forward is moving units in the same numbers. They are going to, maybe to a lesser extent, run into the problem they've had with iPad in that the upgrades just don't offer enough value to justify existing owners upgrading. Especially if the cost of the devices continues to rise.

Take the iPhone 8/iPhone Pro/iPhone Unicorn or whatever its going to be called, there are already rumours of $1100/1200 + price points. I'm assuming that will translate to somewhere in the region of a £1000 or more price tag here in the UK, I can honestly say that at that point I'm out.

I just can't see what that device is going to be capable of to make it worth my while spending a thousand pounds or more on it and I say that as someone on the developer program who has a professional interest in the platform.

The constant cranking up of prices has to end somewhere. It did nothing for the iPad and it won't with the phone either.

 

[cgsnipinva]

The problem that Apple is going to have moving forward is moving units in the same numbers. They are going to, maybe to a lesser extent, run into the problem they've had with iPad in that the upgrades just don't offer enough value to justify existing owners upgrading. Especially if the cost of the devices continues to rise.

Take the iPhone 8/iPhone Pro/iPhone Unicorn or whatever its going to be called, there are already rumours of $1100/1200 + price points. I'm assuming that will translate to somewhere in the region of a £1000 or more price tag here in the UK, I can honestly say that at that point I'm out.

I just can't see what that device is going to be capable of to make it worth my while spending a thousand pounds or more on it and I say that as someone on the developer program who has a professional interest in the platform.

The constant cranking up of prices has to end somewhere. It did nothing for the iPad and it won't with the phone either.

Well you will also have the updated 7s and 7S plus with new chip, camera and iOS 11 which will be much cheaper. This same argument has come up with every new iPhone as they all get more expensive.

 

[Rob_2811]

Well you will also have the updated 7s and 7S plus with new chip, camera and iOS 11 which will be much cheaper. This same argument has come up with every new iPhone as they all get more expensive.

If they keep jacking up the prices year on year they will reach a point where people will draw the line. Sure there are always the people that will happily stump up $1200-1500 to Apple for an incremental upgrade every year but it isn't enough to maintain the current numbers.

Here in the UK the 7/7Plus models are pushing people into the £50-60 a month contracts with carriers if that creeps into £70/80/100 a month people are going to stop upgrading in the same numbers.

They tried the same tack with the iPad, crank up the prices to combat falling numbers. Didn't really work there people just held on to their older models longer and the US education market largely abandoned it in favour of Chromebooks. They ended up eating humble pie and releasing a cheaper model.

That education market is probably gone for good now. That lower cost iPad is likely just too little too late. The iPhone is the golden goose, It would be very silly to kill it out of greed.

 

[69Mustang]

I can also turn that argument against your position by always hearing about "market share".

You would like to see something more creative than profit, and I'd like to see something more creative than market share.

I'm going to tie my response to both your post together for brevity. You're both discussing profit from a perspective which I thought I made clear wasn't my issue: "My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster" <--- That comes from the comment section. That's where the issue lies. What you two are talking about (articles about market share) comes from the tech press. That would be a complaint to register with sites like MR. So to be a bit more clear. Profit is not the issue for me. Commenters using it as a counter in every discussion (like the bolded) as if it's "the answer" to end all answers is my issue.

 

[MH01]

What competition? Apple has practically all the profits in the market, and I doubt anyone at Apple loses sleep over the thought of the competition selling vast quantities of cheaper phones. Phones that don't compete with the iPhone in any meaningful manner.

Are you assuming that people will continue to be happy handing over $1k for a phone?

I've owned every single iPhone, until the 7, I'm no longer paying such silly premiums for what is small evolutions , had the price remained around $800 I would still be upgrading each year. $1k + I'm out, I would not be suprised if many others will also think this way. At least the SE model is available and looking like the best iPhone going forward without being ripped off.

And it's not about affording, that is not the issue, the constant prices rises for phones and AppleCare no longer make the iPhone a device that represents value. Heck the 6S and SE are better units due to a headphone jack for me

Let's see.

 

[cgsnipinva]

First thing first...none of the Chinese OEM's are a threat to Apple they're a threat to other Android OEM's.




Market share and it's trends are a legitimate point of criticism if taken in context of history. Companies need to know where to make long term investments and market share is an important data point in those decisions. Secondly we all see things through our own lens I don't want Android OEM's to worry about long term support I want them to worry about building the best phone they can and let me worry about support I've got that.



But the OEM's we're talking about produce other stuff phones are a side business that's not really the case with Apple, Apple in 2017 is phones.

True Apple makes the bulk of its earnings in phones. Hence - my point - profits are important. The fact they make as much profit on their phones means the quality of their revenues its higher than those with little to know profit. Apple is also in other lines of business as well -- MACs, Wearables, retail, services, and they are looking at media content. Their last quarterly call indicated growth in revenue and profits for all sectors of their business. Demonstrating again - the quality of Apple's revenues.

Lets look at the OEMS - and Samsung in particular as they are the most diversified of the Android phone OEMs. They are involved in tvs, electronic components (screens and silicon), and various consumer electronics. All of those industries are in commodity spaces where margins are thin. Samsung risks getting replaced by TSMC to make Apple's custom designed chips. When all of your market sectors are commodities with razor thin margins - you have a problem. You cannot discount much in response to competition without hitting a loss. Weak position.

Apple has an investment in TSMC and I see that growing in the future effectively insourcing that part of the phone stack. Also since Apple has high profit margins on their products and services - they have room to discount if need be and still make a profit. Strong position.
[doublepost=1502555302][/doublepost]

If they keep jacking up the prices year on year they will reach a point where people will draw the line. Sure there are always the people that will happily stump up $1200-1500 to Apple for an incremental upgrade every year but it isn't enough to maintain the current numbers.

Here in the UK the 7/7Plus models are pushing people into the £50-60 a month contracts with carriers if that creeps into £70/80/100 a month people are going to stop upgrading in the same numbers.

They tried the same tack with the iPad, crank up the prices to combat falling numbers. Didn't really work there people just held on to their older models longer and the US education market largely abandoned it in favour of Chromebooks. They ended up eating humble pie and releasing a cheaper model.

That education market is probably gone for good now. That lower cost iPad is likely just too little too late. The iPhone is the golden goose, It would be very silly to kill it out of greed.

Agreed every manufacturer will hit a price ceiling. No argument there. However, the strength of Apple's position is that they can discount and still make a profit because of their higher margins. Their competition is already about as low as they can go. This means the market values the iPhone/iOS ecosystem more.

Case in point - Apple responded to weaknesses in their iPad line up -- they improved iOS with iOS 11 and the iPad hardware and reduced pricing. Hence sales went up and they still made a profit on those reduced prices. Now Apple's position in the market is still as strong - they are on the top. They may have lost the education market - but they could also capture it back. Market positioning is not forever. The key point to take away is --- Apple's market strength gives it the flexibility to address pricing as needed.

Could Samsung drop the price of their tablets and make a profit. No. They also rely on the Android OS which is a terrible tablet platform and won't support any price increases because the market doesn't see the value there.

 

[Rob_2811]

Agreed every manufacturer will hit a price ceiling. No argument there. However, the strength of Apple's position is that they can discount and still make a profit because of their higher margins. Their competition is already about as low as they can go. This means the market values the iPhone/iOS ecosystem more.

Case in point - Apple responded to weaknesses in their iPad line up -- they improved iOS with iOS 11 and the iPad hardware and reduced pricing. Hence sales went up and they still made a profit on those reduced prices. Now Apple's position in the market is still as strong - they are on the top. They may have lost the education market - but they could also capture it back. Market positioning is not forever. The key point to take away is --- Apple's market strength gives it the flexibility to address pricing as needed.

Could Samsung drop the price of their tablets and make a profit. No. They also rely on the Android OS which is a terrible tablet platform and won't support any price increases because the market doesn't see the value there.

It's always better to hang on to your customers rather than drive them away and they desperately try to win them back.

Sure they might win back the US education market. Very unlikely though, they've seen the other side of the fence now and Chromebooks are generally cheaper and more appropriate in most education environments. That might not have happened had they not priced iPads out of sight in the first place.

Typical of Cooks Apple. Great at squeezing out every last bit of profit but in terms of long term strategy they're all over the map.

 

[I7guy]

I'm going to tie my response to both your post together for brevity. You're both discussing profit from a perspective which I thought I made clear wasn't my issue: "My complaint is about the laziness of "but profit" as if it is the answer to every question, asked and unasked. Someone else sells more phones. But profit. Someone else intro's new tech. But profit. Someone else intro's a new feature, bests Apple in a comparison, debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster" <--- That comes from the comment section. That's where the issue lies. What you two are talking about (articles about market share) comes from the tech press. That would be a complaint to register with sites like MR. So to be a bit more clear. Profit is not the issue for me. Commenters using it as a counter in every discussion (like the bolded) as if it's "the answer" to end all answers is my issue.

Let's break this down a bit:
- Someone else sells more phones(the old marketshare discussion; e.g. Samsung sells more phones than Apple). But profit.(this is an appropriate response)
-Someone else intro's new tech (or new feature for brevity in responding). But profit (As a rule of the internet, I haven't seen posters doing this, and obviously a generalization of one person making this type of assertion is a false equivalency; e.g. Samsung introduced facial recognition, but apple makes more profit or Samsung introduced a notification light, but apple makes more profit. That doesn't even make sense in any context)
-debuts an app elsewhere first... profit, profit, profit is the only answer some people can seem to muster (Profit again is a logical follow through. Android store has more apps, more variety and the equivalent apps cost less; however, apple makes more profit in it's app store. Seems to make a logical conclusion)

When marketshare is used as an irrational baseball bat as if it's a trophy, the way to disarm the conversation is to ask about profits. I don't have a problem with that.
[doublepost=1502558044][/doublepost]

Are you assuming that people will continue to be happy handing over $1k for a phone?

I've owned every single iPhone, until the 7, I'm no longer paying such silly premiums for what is small evolutions , had the price remained around $800 I would still be upgrading each year. $1k + I'm out, I would not be suprised if many others will also think this way. At least the SE model is available and looking like the best iPhone going forward without being ripped off.

And it's not about affording, that is not the issue, the constant prices rises for phones and AppleCare no longer make the iPhone a device that represents value. Heck the 6S and SE are better units due to a headphone jack for me

Let's see.

I don't know what the price point is that people will stop buying any phone. Is it $50, $60, $100, $300, $500, $850 or $1000? People are on a waiting list to buy ultra expensive cars, so one can't assume one won't fork over $1,000,000 for a car or $1,000 for a phone.

But if you don't get any more value in apple, you should be happy for the competition as you have your choice of android or windows phone manufacturers. I don't know what I'll do yet, but I'm keeping an open mind.

 

[cgsnipinva]

It's always better to hang on to your customers rather than drive them away and they desperately try to win them back.

Sure they might win back the US education market. Very unlikely though, they've seen the other side of the fence now and Chromebooks are generally cheaper and more appropriate in most education environments. That might not have happened had they not priced iPads out of sight in the first place.

Typical of Cooks Apple. Great at squeezing out every last bit of profit but in terms of long term strategy they're all over the map.

On your first point I would agree - however, I don't think they are chasing customers away. in fact their results show they are growing --- -across the board.

With regards to Chromebooks - are they cheaper? Yes - are they or the software that is on them that good for education? Time will tell. A corollary would be my wife. She was Android all the way in the beginning. Then we went iOS and iPhone when we switched to Verizon. She remarked on how much better the software, camera and integration with her Mac was. She was on iPhone for years. However, we were made an offer on ATT to cut costs and we went back to Android.

She hated it. She said that Android actually regressed, the photos she got out of the Android phone was worse and the ability to integrate with her Mac actually decremented since she last used Android. She was so disattisfied that she paid the early termination fee on ATT and we went back to Verizon and iPhone since.

Lesson - cheaper isn't always better. People will pay for value. While we have been talking about the phone hardware -- we missed the software side. And I would have to say on most objective measure the iOS environment - especially in apps - is hands down superior to Android.

 

[9081094]

The price of Android phones have no choice but to drop because of the numerous competitors and so many that flood the market because they realize it's not going to succeed so they give them away at tremendous losses and people think what a great deal. The iPhone is really a computer for most people now so they don't have that expense any longer.

I understand that the competition among Android is big. But we've come to a point where Android is on par or in many respects even better than the iPhone. Most of the flagship androids had better specs and amoled screens already. Their services are much better on Android. Once people trade in their iphone for an Android they'll realize that there isnt that much difference except in price and better screens and services. Many of my friends have switched and don't regret it for a bit. Some of them were hardcore Apple fans before. As messages is hardly used here (most people use whatsapp) and spotify is the standard. Together with unlimited photo-upload on Google, google now and google maps and all the other things google is offering, its hard to stay on iPhone.

 

[I7guy]

Typical of Cooks Apple. Great at squeezing out every last bit of profit but in terms of long term strategy they're all over the map.

Apple has had this strategy since 2011 (since Apple became Cooks', I'm guessing), but apples financial results, whether you personally like the direction of the company or not, speaks for itself. The biggest issues is the ipad mess Jobs left Cook with. Somehow Jobs who seems to be credited with foreshadowing a lot of stuff, missed where the convergence would happen. It's up to Tim to fix this mess.
[doublepost=1502558662][/doublepost]

I understand that the competition among Android is big. But we've come to a point where Android is on par or in many respects even better than the iPhone. Most of the flagship androids had better specs and amoled screens already. Their services are much better on Android. Once people trade in their iphone for an Android they'll realize that there isnt that much difference except in price and better screens and services. Many of my friends have switched and don't regret it for a bit. Some of them were hardcore Apple fans before. As messages is hardly used here (most people use whatsapp) and spotify is the standard. Together with unlimited photo-upload on Google, google now and google maps and all the other things google is offering, its hard to stay on iPhone.

Wanted to add almost this entire post is subjective. And you should read the post above yours, the grass is not always greener. Some of us don't want to use google to store their photos. icloud has more than enough storage and it's not constrained for videos.

For many apple customers, it's not hard at all to stay on iphone.

 

[Rob_2811]

Apple has had this strategy since 2011 (since Apple became Cooks', I'm guessing), but apples financial results, whether you personally like the direction of the company or not, speaks for itself. The biggest issues is the ipad mess Jobs left Cook with. Somehow Jobs who seems to be credited with foreshadowing a lot of stuff, missed where the convergence would happen. It's up to Tim to fix this mess.

Riiight so because things have done ok thus far that means they will continue to!? RIM were riding high selling people phones at one point, how are their financials now?

I'd love to hear your theory on how the blame for the tanking iPad sales can be attributed to somebody who passed away a little over a year after the original model shipped