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... This falls under their holy fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, since corporate profitability has established itself as the new dominating global religion...

Agreed. There is no law that makes the interests of shareholders paramount over workers, customers, and the society in which the companies operate. It's an urban myth that the top 0.1% use to cover the obvious and profound conflict of interest between shareholders setting senior management's salaries while senior managers set dividends and stock buy-backs.

EDIT: misunderstood freediverx's post. :oops:
 
For everyone saying they paid 0.005% in taxes. Yes, but as the current set up stands, they are expecting to pay 15 - 25%, the moment it arrives on US shores.

It's like you earn $100k in a year and your accountant appeals your tax payment (deductions etc) so you are in negotiations with the tax authority for over a year. Well, anyone can say at any point until you pay the tax "come on you have paid 0% tax, that's outrageous", but the point is you are expecting somewhere in the region of 15 - 25% at some point in the future. And indeed that is precisely what is happening now! They are not spending the money, they are fully expecting to pay taxes at some point.

Apple were never intending not to pay the tax. Remember they are still the biggest tax payer in the US. It was just a question of whether they would pay the remaining taxes to the US, Ireland, or the original EU countries (UK, France etc) where product sales were made. They used the "double Irish" loophole offered by the Irish govt to delay paying their taxes and to obfuscate their IP tax residency.

Meanwhile the EU are going after Ireland, not Apple. The EU commissioner has just said on TV that Apple did nothing wrong. It is Ireland, which is effectively offering state subsidies, that is at fault here.

The tax is owed in the EU though. Not the US. This is the tax owed on sales in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Sales that went through Ireland.
 
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... to challenge the encroachment of EU state aid rules into the sovereign member state competence of taxation.
I don't get how everyone suddenly things, he's souvereign enough to break EU rules.
 
We are not debating about whether Apple should pay that money or not, but whether Apple is legally required to.
I think it's the opposite. Very few of us here are tax lawyers and we can't really debate whether they are legally required to pay the tax. What we can debate is whether morally they should - we don't need to be lawyers or accountants to have an opinion on that.
 
They do and they have. The rate is 12.5% . The EU is going after the backdoor deals of treating some companies better than others. It's not a question of tax law sovereignty, but rather adherence to the given tax law.
A local (US) company in the area I live in announced that they're hiring 600 people over 6 years.

For that, the state is giving them $9M in incentives, and the local city is giving them $4.5M in incentives.

These incentives include grants, tax credits, and tax increment financing.

So in essence, the state and city are treating this company better than others. Is that also a backdoor deal?
 
This is a deal Ireland has made for Apple - not Apple making a massive tax fraud. EU is interfering with the individual country tax system (to be honest I'm not in the details) which sounds a lot like many of the reasons The UK voted out.

Nobody should cheat, but this sounds like it isn't on Apple (get presented with a good deal by a country and accepting it isn't a crime) but more like the country it self

Yes, the US Treasury and yourself are both correct - the EU is a supranational regime. EU member states are not the highest power over what happens within their borders; in fact, their borders are basically just for show anyway.

That's not new or controversial. That is what the EU is and was always intended to be, and it makes no attempt to disguise it. And yes, that is why the UK voted out.

This is actually a natural fact of the single market. If your company can be anywhere in Europe and sell goods to the whole rest of Europe, why would you incorporate in the UK or Germany when you can incorporate in Ireland or Luxembourg and still sell your goods and services to the whole of Europe? It creates a race-to-the-bottom, with nations competing with each other for the lowest corporate tax rates in order to steal taxation revenue caused by economic activity across the entire EU. That is what Ireland did; they cut a special deal with Apple so all EU activity would get taxed there. The real scandal is that they are only being reprimanded for the arrangement; IMO the Irish government should also be fined and those taxes should be distributed to the member states who their policies harmed.

The EU has a single underlying problem: its politicians don't know how to do politics. They believe that stamping aspirations, like "freedom of movement", the single currency or open-door refugee policy in to law, regardless of the reality of life on the ground, is politics. That is completely wrong. Politics is the art of finding compromise, of tempering your aspirations based on what is achievable today and having humility when your policies fail.

All of these policies have been failures.

- Freedom of movement allowed Poles (with an average salary 1/4 of the UK) to become the single biggest country-of-origin for immigrants - overtaking generations of Indian and Irish immigration in only 12 years. As the recent Burkini fiasco demonstrates, the UK is probably the least-racist country in Europe. Even they thought it was too much change, too quickly, and wanted caps on the numbers.
- The single currency almost broke Europe's economy. Most countries have a form of Länderausgleich, as we say in Germany, which means money from rich areas (such as Munich) flows to areas with poor finances (such as Berlin). People are generally okay with it, because they're all Germans/French/Brits/whatever. That level of solidarity simply does not exist across EU states. Germans are not happy supporting Greece, because "they're all Europeans". Now the Greeks (of all people) have had their democracy reduced to a joke as they hold referendums and reject austerity packages dictated by Berlin, and the PM is almost in tears as he tells the nation they have no choice but to do it anyway.
- The open-door refugee policy is the worst, because it's not even official EU policy. It's just Germany, being so powerful in the EU, who has created all the problems. Now we have growing right-wing and islamophobic sentiments all across Europe, and the EU are being held over a barrel by Turkey. I'm scared there will be riots if they allow Turks visa-free access to the EU. How does it look when they refuse to compromise with Britain, but lose their convictions about freedom of speech and give everything to an authoritative Muslim nation? The nationalists are going to see it as proof of some conspiracy. Meanwhile, 2/3 of Germans are against the policy and even the left-wing SPD are now calling for caps on the numbers (hmm... didn't they just kick Britain out of the EU for asking for something similar...?)

Now, the failures of the single market are laid bare for everyone to see. No control of your borders, no control of your economy, no control even over taxation. Just surrender all power to the short-sighted failure-artists in Brussels, who declare fantasy policies while presiding over some of the most racist nations and kicking out the most multicultural ones.
 
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Like I said, fair or not fair, it is not for us to decide.

I can feel that a certain criminal's sentence is too light, but that would be my own personal opinion. Ultimately, the courts have passed their judgement, and it needs to be respected, precisely because different people have differing views of what "fair" is.

Most rationale people know what is fair or right. Oscar killer her and Apple has not paid the taxes. You and me , pay our taxes, therefore we can judge.
 
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They do and they have. The rate is 12.5% . The EU is going after the backdoor deals of treating some companies better than others. It's not a question of tax law sovereignty, but rather adherence to the given tax law.
Heh, then they better audit every country in the EU to make sure no-one else is giving any tax avoidance to other international companies. :).

My point being - pretty sure all countries are wheeling and dealing when it comes to jobs. I know here in Canada the province of New Brunswick gave any companies relocating their call centre businesses a tax holiday for x number of years in return for the jobs. How is that any different? :)
 
The tax is owed in the EU though. Not the US. This is the tax owed on sales in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Sales that went through Ireland.
No the tax is owed in the EU (according to European Commission) AND in the US (according to the US Treasury). But the taxable event - for the US - is only when the money reaches US shores. The US - unlike all other western countries - insists on taxing profits of companies registered in the US, no matter where in the world the goods were produced or sold. It has always been assumed that Apple would eventually repatriate much of the $200b it currently holds overseas, and that point it would be taxed by the US. Of course it already pays a high rate of tax on all goods sold in the US, which is why it is already the biggest tax payer in the US.
 
This deflection is Tim Cook's favorite response. The core issue is not the legality of the tax avoidance, but the tax avoidance itself. In some cases some laws may be broken. But in many others the laws are ineffective and unjust. Corporations must be forced, globally, to pay their fair share in taxes.

The core issue of the court case is not the legality of the setup? Um, okay. Why should corporations be forced to interpret laws in any way other than the way they are written? What about if two companies have different interpretations? That's the reason it's the responsibility of the lawmakers to write clear laws in the first place.

If Ireland did something illegal, it's between them, the EU, and the decades of officials who were willfully ignoring it or approving tax returns all this time. It's not like this arrangement is new, people haven't heard of Apple, lawyers are a new profession, or the EU was just formed.
 
What is Ireland getting out of this 0.005% tax deal? Apparently Apple has only 4000 people in Ireland so that is far cry from compensating the tax brakes Apple is getting.
 
This is just one more reason why the EU sucks. You have an international group of socialists that need a never-ending supply of money to support all those cradle to grave entitlements and handouts.

Ireland, supposedly a sovereign nation, decided to grant tax benefits to Apple to get them to relocate to Ireland (which already has a nice, low corp. income tax at 16%, that's what angers the EU/EC). Now the EU, made of of money grubbing buffoons from 26 other nations comes in and tells them that what they did is illegal. I dont blame the UK for wanting out of the EU/EC. It'd be like if we formed a NorthAmerican Union and we had Canadians and Mexican politicians dictating and overruling our own laws. The citizenry loses their sovereignity when you join one of these international unions. They cant even elect a government of their own people to govern themselves.

I do understand that the idea of uniting sovereign states into a big united union with a government overseeing the member states must seem foreign to people living in the USA.
 
A local (US) company in the area I live in announced that they're hiring 600 people over 6 years.

For that, the state is giving them $9M in incentives, and the local city is giving them $4.5M in incentives.

These incentives include grants, tax credits, and tax increment financing.

So in essence, the state and city are treating this company better than others. Is that also a backdoor deal?

I don't see any long-term lowering of income tax for this company. $4.5m tax incentive on a $110m investment hardly compares to a 0.005% effective tax rate that Apple is enjoying in Ireland. You're comparing Oranges to them Apples.
 
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This is just one more reason why the EU sucks. You have an international group of socialists that need a never-ending supply of money to support all those cradle to grave entitlements and handouts.

Now that you've finished your rant, you might want to read the proceedings of the US senate hearings in which US Republican John McCain called the Irish system an illegal tax haven, and an American law professor who worked in the Reagan administration called the Irish loopholes for Apple "incoherent." I don't think either of them are socialists.

These EU laws were actually an ultra-capitalist measure, designed to stop governments giving sweetheart favourable deals to nationalised or state-owned companies. The basic principle is that all corporations have the same rights as people, to be treated equally under the law. You don't have one set of laws that applies to one company and another set of laws for every other company. That's about as capitalist as you can get.


It'd be like if we formed a NorthAmerican Union.
Yeah. Something like a "United States of America". That would be a crazy system - it could never work!!!
 
Did anyone read the whole letter from apple? it's quite interesting if true.
http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

Especially this:
As responsible corporate citizens, we are also proud of our contributions to local economies across Europe, and to communities everywhere. As our business has grown over the years, we have become the largest taxpayer in Ireland, the largest taxpayer in the United States, and the largest taxpayer in the world.

Over the years, we received guidance from Irish tax authorities on how to comply correctly with Irish tax law — the same kind of guidance available to any company doing business there. In Ireland and in every country where we operate, Apple follows the law and we pay all the taxes we owe.

The European Commission has launched an effort to rewrite Apple’s history in Europe, ignore Ireland’s tax laws and upend the international tax system in the process. The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals. We now find ourselves in the unusual position of being ordered to retroactively pay additional taxes to a government that says we don't owe them any more than we've already paid.


It sounds like Ireland wanted to make sure, that Apple will stay there and lowered their taxes on their own free will.
Do you know anyone who would ask if they could pay more taxes?


I can see them increasing the taxes for the future. But retroactively asking for more taxes seems wrong. Obviously Apple wouldn't have a problem paying this with it's loads of money, but this might have a serious impact on smaller companies.
 
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I do understand that the idea of uniting sovereign states into a big united union with a government overseeing the member states must seem foreign to people living in the USA.

Haven't you been following? It's a total clusterfudge in the USA as well.

Some of the states tried to secede over a political disagreement but were invaded. Most of those states are still very culturally different from the rest of the country, and only recently took down the secessionist flags.
 
Yes, the US Treasury and yourself are both correct - the EU is a supranational regime. EU member states are not the highest power over what happens within their borders; in fact, their borders are basically just for show anyway.

That's not new or controversial. That is what the EU is and was always intended to be, and it makes no attempt to disguise it. And yes, that is why the UK voted out.

This is actually a natural fact of the single market. If your company can be anywhere in Europe and sell goods to the whole rest of Europe, why would you incorporate in the UK or Germany when you can incorporate in Ireland or Luxembourg and still sell your goods and services to the whole of Europe? It creates a race-to-the-bottom, with nations competing with each other for the lowest corporate tax rates in order to steal taxation revenue caused by economic activity across the entire EU. That is what Ireland did; they cut a special deal with Apple so all EU activity would get taxed there. The real scandal is that they are only being reprimanded for the arrangement; IMO the Irish government should also be fined and those taxes should be distributed to the member states who their policies harmed.

The EU has a single underlying problem: its politicians don't know how to do politics. They believe that stamping aspirations, like "freedom of movement", the single currency or open-door refugee policy in to law, regardless of the reality of life on the ground, is politics. That is completely wrong. Politics is the art of finding compromise, of tempering your aspirations based on what is achievable today and having humility when your policies fail.

All of these policies have been failures.

- Freedom of movement allowed Poles (with an average salary 1/4 of the UK) to become the single biggest country-of-origin for immigrants - overtaking generations of Indian and Irish immigration in only 12 years. As the recent Burkini fiasco demonstrates, the UK is probably the least-racist country in Europe. Even they thought it was too much change, too quickly, and wanted caps on the numbers.
- The single currency almost broke Europe's economy. Most countries have a form of Länderausgleich, as we say in Germany, which means money from rich areas (such as Munich) flows to areas with poor finances (such as Berlin). People are generally okay with it, because they're all Germans/French/Brits/whatever. That level of solidarity simply does not exist across EU states. Germans are not happy supporting Greece, because "they're all Europeans". Now the Greeks (of all people) have had their democracy reduced to a joke as they hold referendums and reject austerity packages dictated by Berlin, and the PM is almost in tears as he tells the nation they have no choice but to do it anyway.
- The open-door refugee policy is the worst, because it's not even official EU policy. It's just Germany, being so powerful in the EU, who has created all the problems. Now we have growing right-wing and islamophobic sentiments all across Europe, and the EU are being held over a barrel by Turkey. I'm scared there will be riots if they allow Turks visa-free access to the EU. How does it look when they refuse to compromise with Britain, but lose their convictions about freedom of speech and give everything to an authoritative Muslim nation? The nationalists are going to see it as proof of some conspiracy. Meanwhile, 2/3 of Germans are against the policy and even the left-wing SPD are now calling for caps on the numbers (hmm... didn't they just kick Britain out of the EU for asking for something similar...?)

Now, the failures of the single market are laid bare for everyone to see. No control of your borders, no control of your economy, no control even over taxation. Just surrender all power to the short-sighted failure-artists in Brussels, who declare fantasy policies while presiding over some of the most racist nations and kicking out the most multicultural ones.

Well in the full statement from Tim Cook, they deny to have asked for, or received any special treatment....

The European Commission has launched an effort to rewrite Apple’s history in Europe, ignore Ireland’s tax laws and upend the international tax system in the process. The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals. We now find ourselves in the unusual position of being ordered to retroactively pay additional taxes to a government that says we don't owe them any more than we've already paid.
 
Part of Tims apparent 'open letter' to the people of Europe:

The European Commission has launched an effort to rewrite Apple’s history in Europe, ignore Ireland’s tax laws and upend the international tax system in the process. The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals. We now find ourselves in the unusual position of being ordered to retroactively pay additional taxes to a government that says we don't owe them any more than we've already paid.

Off the front of Apples website. I think this just shows he has no clue about the general populous feelings, he has severely underestimated the fact normal people have to pay taxes, we don't pay 0.005% tax on out incomes!

The arrogance and disjointed reality shown by Apple and Tim Cook here is pretty unbelievable. I think he's just cost them some sales with this rubbish.
I'm pretty sure few people are going to believe for a second the worlds richest corporation putting 90% of ALL ITS FORIEGN PROFITS, yes not just profits made in Europe, through two companies with headquarters that did not exist in order to not pay taxes, as anything else BUT ILLEGAL, as proved and stated by this investigation.
 
Heh, then they better audit every country in the EU to make sure no-one else is giving any tax avoidance to other international companies. :).

My point being - pretty sure all countries are wheeling and dealing when it comes to jobs. I know here in Canada the province of New Brunswick gave any companies relocating their call centre businesses a tax holiday for x number of years in return for the jobs. How is that any different? :)
Keyword "any" companies. 1 law for all. Not one rate for Apple + other big players and a higher rate for everyone else.
Here in Canada (I'm in BC) most businesses are taxed to the hilt, the incentives all go to foreign investors and pipeline builders :)
but that's getting too much OT now.
 
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Part of Tims apparent 'open letter' to the people of Europe:

The European Commission has launched an effort to rewrite Apple’s history in Europe, ignore Ireland’s tax laws and upend the international tax system in the process. The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals. We now find ourselves in the unusual position of being ordered to retroactively pay additional taxes to a government that says we don't owe them any more than we've already paid.

Off the front of Apples website. I think this just shows he has no clue about the general populous feelings, he has severely underestimated the fact normal people have to pay taxes, we don't pay 0.005% tax on out incomes!

The arrogance and disjointed reality shown by Apple and Tim Cook here is pretty unbelievable. I think he's just cost them some sales with this rubbish.
No, he is saying the taxes should be paid in the US not in Ireland!
 
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