Apple on iPhone 4 Reception: Signal Strength Display Issue Only, Software Update Coming

[rhanley]

As for "any other cell phone", do you have some proof that all other cell phones can stay connected in -85 dBm conditions, no matter how those devices are held or oriented? A few other cell phones can, I'm sure, but saying that this is true of all legally marketable cellular devices is a much stronger statement.

All the proof I need is that I can't get my iphone 3G to drop a call, or stop my data throughput (upload/download) completely, and this is in the exact same location I can get my iphone 4 to drop signal within a matter of seconds. That is with me gripping the iphone 3G like a gorilla, and simply touching my ring finger lightly to the 'sweet spot' on the iphone 4.

Certainly by Apple changing the bars, it may move the concern from Apple to AT&T's network (lack of reception in some areas), but this doesn't change the fact that the phones reception is NOT as good as it was with the iphone 3G in these same areas. I understand the reception may be better in *most* areas, but definitely not all.

You can debate that all you want, but I've tested this tons of times so I know what is fact.

 

[Alonzo84]

Apple is also not offering FULL refund. Also it is against the law to sell defective products.

Apple is offering FULL refund.

"As a reminder, if you are not fully satisfied, you can return your undamaged iPhone to any Apple Retail Store or the online Apple Store within 30 days of purchase for a full refund."

 

[webcrawler]

Resellers are not offering the same full refund courtesy. At least not all of them.

Yup, retuned my iPhone 4 at ATT store today evening and they charged 10% restocking fees.

 

[mdickerson]

Unless the nokia has an exposed antenna, it suffers from attenution, not detuning. In any event, your point is what? If the nokia has the identical problem all that means is that apple is not the only company incompetent at making phones. It doesn't make the i4 any less of an engineering failure.

I don't think you know what detuning is. Put simply, you can change the resonance condition of an antenna through changing the resistance or, more likely, the reactance. The latter can be easily accomplished without touching the antenna. Since your body is basically a huge capacitor, just coming close enough to an antenna will change its resonance condition.

 

[rhanley]

Yup, retuned my iPhone 4 at ATT store today evening and they charged 10% restocking fees.

Ouch, that doesn't sound right.....

Anyone else return to AT&T and get charged a restocking fee?

I plan on returning mine next week, and would not be happy with a 10% restocking fee, especially after paying $24 for a bodyguardz which doesn't resolve the issue .

Did you ask to speak to a manager? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't honor a full refund as Apple is doing.

 

[webcrawler]

Ouch, that doesn't sound right.....

Anyone else return to AT&T and get charged a restocking fee?

I plan on returning mine next week, and would not be happy with a 10% restocking fee, especially after paying $24 for a bodyguardz which doesn't resolve the issue .

Did you ask to speak to a manager? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't honor a full refund as Apple is doing.

Manager had a day off but store employees say they had not seen any such memo. I returned it anyways as i'll rather loose $20 than carrying this POS in pocket.

I plan to call him tomorrow and will shoot ATT customer support an email. Do share if any of you guys get 100% back.

 

[rhanley]

Manager had a day off but store employees say they had not seen any such memo. I returned it anyways as i'll rather loose $20 than carrying this POS in pocket.

I plan to call him tomorrow and will shoot ATT customer support an email. Do share if any of you guys get 100% back.

Yeah, I think they'll drop it if you complain enough, but you shouldn't even have to do that -- That's the reason I haven't returned mine yet -- I want to make sure it's in the clear that we can return without issues. I was certain that was the case after Apple's press release...

I am non-confrontational and I know I would end up paying the restocking fee like you did if push came to shove

 

[cmaier]

I don't think you know what detuning is. Put simply, you can change the resonance condition of an antenna through changing the resistance or, more likely, the reactance. The latter can be easily accomplished without touching the antenna. Since your body is basically a huge capacitor, just coming close enough to an antenna will change its resonance condition.

I don't think you know what a capacitor is. Your body is not a capacitor. It may form one with another conductor. But you can't seriously argue that a capacitive detuning with air and plastic as a dialectric is anywhere near as likely to be a problem as the detuning that occurs when you make direct contact with the conductive antenna.

 

[mdickerson]

I don't think you know what a capacitor is. Your body is not a capacitor. It may form one with another conductor. But you can't seriously argue that a capacitive detuning with air and plastic as a dialectric is anywhere near as likely to be a problem as the detuning that occurs when you make direct contact with the conductive antenna.

I'm fully aware of what a capacitor is - clearly you don't. Your body is a capacitor in almost every conceivable way. It is formed by having conductive plates separated by a dielectric. Reactive detuning is a very real problem and is a bigger issue with RF antennas than making a what you call a conductive contact. A resistor is not a resistor at RF frequencies.

 

[-aggie-]

I'm fully aware of what a capacitor is - clearly you don't. Your body is a capacitor in almost every conceivable way. It is formed by having conductive plates separated by a dielectric. Reactive detuning is a very real problem and is a bigger issue with RF antennas than making a what you call a conductive contact. A resistor is not a resistor at RF frequencies.

Who else besides me is glad we actually have someone in this thread that knows what they’re talking about, including AllGaussian?

 

[iEdd]

Yes your body is many things, an inductor, a capacitor, a resistor, a battery, etc. Of course, all of these in minuscule proportions (except skin resistance).

A resistor is not a resistor at RF frequencies.

Wrong. A resistor is always a resistor. By definition.

I know what you meant though. An impedance is purely resistive in steady state DC, but can be reactive (capacitive or inductive) with AC. The higher the frequency, the lower impedance of capacitive reactance. RF is not just a problem because it's HF AC, but you also have transients and a huge gain, so when your body becomes part of the antenna in any way, weird things happen.

 

[mdickerson]

Yes your body is many things, an inductor, a capacitor, a resistor, a battery, etc. Of course, all of these in minuscule proportions (except skin resistance).



Wrong. A resistor is always a resistor. By definition.

I know what you meant though. An impedance is purely resistive in steady state DC, but can be reactive (capacitive or inductive) with AC. The higher the frequency, the lower impedance of capacitive reactance. RF is not just a problem because it's HF AC, but you also have transients and a huge gain, so when your body becomes part of the antenna in any way, weird things happen.

Nope, afraid not. You are quite a large capacitor actually. I've never seen a model of it as an inductor and conceptually, I don't see how it can act as an inductor.

An IDEAL resistor is a resistor by definition. I'm talking about a real-world resistor. It's modeled as a series and shunt capacitance and a series inductance.

 

[firewood]

Your body is not a capacitor. It may form one with another conductor.

1 plate of a capacitor, to be more precise.

Often demonstrated in generic high school physics experiments.

The other conductors are any circuit in the iPhone, including the many antennas and counterposes.

 

[iEdd]

@ mdickerson: Yep, gotcha. Sorry about the semantics, I think we are arguing the same point.

I had thought the human body was 10s of pF, but according to Wiki, a common model is 1.5k ohms of resistance in series with 100pF of capacitance. So yes, relatively small, but as you say, in the context of RF, 100pF is HUGE. (A few stray pF in poorly-routed PCB tracks can break an RF circuit, let alone 100pF.)

 

[sneezingdog]

Ouch, that doesn't sound right.....

Anyone else return to AT&T and get charged a restocking fee?

I plan on returning mine next week, and would not be happy with a 10% restocking fee, especially after paying $24 for a bodyguardz which doesn't resolve the issue .

Did you ask to speak to a manager? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't honor a full refund as Apple is doing.

Bought min through ATT. Went to return it a week ago and was told I had to pay 10% restocking fee. Talked with store manager and she got permission to waive the fee. You have to be politely aggressive.

 

[Tonewheel]

Hmmm

Seems to be an awful lot of people here espousing their longtime use of Apple products, now bashing the iP4....who have joined this forum as of, oh, June 2010.

Right.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

as more and more I think about it, I am going to returen it this week, paid $499.00 plus tax= $528.00 sorry not for this baby I was waitting.

 

[xdhd350]

1 plate of a capacitor, to be more precise.

Often demonstrated in generic high school physics experiments./QUOTE]


And is the method by which 'touch lamps' work. You form one plate of a capacitor that changes the capacitance of a dimmer circuit when you come in contact with the lamp.

 

[Max(IT)]

take a look at this thread - https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/960438/

you might be interested.

And that's your alternative to the iPhone 4 ?!?
Give me a break ...

 

[BobVB]

As for "any other cell phone", do you have some proof that all other cell phones can stay connected in -85 dBm conditions, no matter how those devices are held or oriented?

The iPhone 3GS can, and as the iPhone 4 was sold as an upgrade to that, it really doesn't matter what the others can do. This is about a phone that reduces the usable signal strength by 99+% when held normally. That is the defect, indefensible when compared with the immediate predecessor of its line.

As to the -85 figure I have no idea if that's what the unheld signal strength is at my house or not. The AnandTech article you got that number from says "With a few exceptions, signal power as low as -107 dBm is actually perfectly fine for calls and data, and below that is where trouble usually starts."

A few other cell phones can, I'm sure, but saying that this is true of all legally marketable cellular devices is a much stronger statement.

Prove me wrong - show a $600 cell phone that by its design causes a loss of 99+% of usable signal by just being held normally? I know you are trying to cobble together a defense but you won't succeed focusing on the wrong problem - why did  design a very expensive phone that squanders 99+% of the available signal with normal use? That is the design defect and one merely has to compare it to the performance and holding signal degradation of its immediately preceding model to show this.

Trying to coach the argument in absolutes when the defect is in how it relatively handles signals will get you nowhere.

AGain,  is going to get raked across the coals on this one particularly if they do ANYTHING like coat the metal on the white models when they arrive.

Guess we'll see.

 

[Jimrod]

Seems to be an awful lot of people here espousing their longtime use of Apple products, now bashing the iP4....who have joined this forum as of, oh, June 2010.

Right.

In general people join forums etc to sort out a problem unless they are just a real fan of the product (sound familiar here?)

I have been perfectly happy with many purchases and not felt the need to sign up for a forum, I owned a Macbook for 2 years but didn't join a forum (had to change to Windows for compatibility with my office accounts system ) - however when people have something to complain about they are far more motivated. I expect many joined here in search of information or a fix for their iP4 problems (and yes, they are real - I noticed the signal before I'd looked into the issue and last night while web browsing I had 5 bars - looked about 5 mins later and "no signal", that is a defective design).

 

[spiritlevel]

Can someone please point me to a YouTube video where someone that thinks they have an iPhone 4 that always works tries the test right next to someone with a bad iPhone 4, in a location which is known to cause the bad iPhone to fail?
I need to see with my own eyes if there are any iPhone 4's that do not exhibit the same behavior when placed right next to a known "bad" iPhone 4 in a "bad" location...

Thanks!

People have been asking for that since day one. There was a thread dedicated specifically to that challenge. It got to 14 pages and died without anyone being able to do so.

If it were possible to show a video of two IP4s in the same location, on the same network, one with the reception issue and one without, I think we would have seen it by now.

Someone on another thread has even offered a bet to anyone who thinks their phone does not have the issue (minimum $1000) for their phone to be sent to an independent testing centre along with his phone (at his initial expense) and if their phone does not show the expected attenuation then they win the bet. If their phone does show the attenuation, then he wins the bet and they also pay the costs of the test. No takers so far.

 

[spiritlevel]

I don't think you know what detuning is. Put simply, you can change the resonance condition of an antenna through changing the resistance or, more likely, the reactance. The latter can be easily accomplished without touching the antenna. Since your body is basically a huge capacitor, just coming close enough to an antenna will change its resonance condition.

Can you not also change the resonance by changing the length of the antenna? Could that be what is happening here (essentially turning 2 antennas into 1 big one) when the antennas are bridged by touch?

 

[MorphingDragon]

And that's your alternative to the iPhone 4 ?!?
Give me a break ...

Are you kidding? At least have the decency to recommend Android.

 

[jiwa]

And you know what they'll tell you?

Return your phone to the place of purchase for a refund if it does not perform as you require. Seriously, how hard is this to comprehend. You don't need to sue to get your money back, you don't need to complain to federal agencies, commissions or tribunals. Return to the place of purchase, give them the phone back, and like magic, they'll give you your money back so you can buy an item that does what you want it to.

Not if you've purchased the phone in the UK from Phones4U via a 24-month contract!

"Sorry sir, we have a no-refund policy".

Uh, so I'm stuck with it simply because I didn't buy it outright, even though its the same phone, with the same problem?