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Good points.

And the background noise needs to be recreated faithfully, too. No word from Apple on that front.

Amateurs

One of my favourite pieces is Handel's Messiah - so I travelled to Vienna and purchased (at auction) two of his eyelashes which I then used to clone the master so he could conduct once more. I foolishly disregarded cloning each of the players from the seminal 1742 performance in Dublin in favour of training 127 of my own musicians to recreate that night as closely as possible. Unable to find a decent modern contralto I tricked my young nephew into believing he was a woman as he has a lovely deep voice. Still unable to fully enjoy my labours I hired 700 'out of work' Irish actors and actresses to recreate the bawdy crowd of that night. I hired the Usher Hall in Edinburgh (it's listed on their website) and sat in my preferred position ready to hear, for the first time, Messiah as it should sound. To my utter disgust the third Cellist was a millisecond late in her attack on the fourth chorus wave and then I realised that the sonic reflection from the balcony did not match the same from Dublin as the balcony was set at a steeper pitch.

To this end I now endure this piece at both AM quality and Deezer Elite quality - the latter sounds marginally better (perhaps down to the recording technique) but there is very little if anything in it. So this is good news eh.
 
Great troll. I almost took the bait. The bit about vinyl gave it away. (For those who do not know: the quality of Vinyl is MUCH less than CD)

Yeah but then you have all that analogue warmth vs digital sharpness and sine vs square discussion. Not that simple but very subjective in my opinion.
 
Yeah but then you have all that analogue warmth vs digital sharpness and sine vs square discussion. Not that simple but very subjective in my opinion.
And i like to miss the dust, static ticks, noise of the head.
 
wardc is the typical costumer for high bitrate. very confident, zero knowledge.

There is some truth to that, if your goal is not to sell music at the highest possible quality, but to extract the greatest amount of money possible from some people's wallets.

If you follow the video and website link on the first page, you will see that 16 bit / 44.1 KHz for distribution is more than good enough for any human ears; 48 KHz was useful in a time of analogue filters but doesn't make any difference anymore. More bits doesn't harm or hurt (except for pointless use of storage), while higher frequencies actively hurt.

What makes a real difference is: 1. The quality of the master. 2. Not doing anything stupid while creating a digital master (that's what "made for iTunes" is essentially about). 3. Dithering and shaped dithering to get the quality far beyond what a human can hear. 4. For lossy compression, using decent software with high quality settings instead of low quality defaults. 5. Decent digital/analog converters. 6. Decent audio equipment for listening. Like $100 headphones instead of $20 headphones that are sold for $200.
 
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Great troll. I almost took the bait. The bit about vinyl gave it away. (For those who do not know: the quality of Vinyl is MUCH less than CD)

Nothing beats vinyl. Analog > digital every day of the week, even with all its imperfections.
 
As an engineer, I just can't read all this ******** that people eat from companies destined to sell snake oil, like "audiophile cables", "audiophile memory cards", and "lossless".

16 bit means that if you put it playing at the volume of a jet engine makes (outside the plane), the hiss will be as low as a whisper.

44.1KHz, means that it's good enough for sound from 0hz to 22,050Hz. The human hear cuts off everything over 19Khz or so. It's like ultra violet light, it's there, but you don't see it. Nyquist frequency.

The 44100Hz wasn't a random number, it was selected because it has multiple factors (Google for factorization), allowing digital filters (bass, treble, extracting voice, etc) with less processing power.

96Khz and more are not more frequency response, they just sample in the 48Khz band multiple times, to then average the measure. It's only useful for recordings.

24 bit is also useful for recordings, because sometimes microphones level are set wrong (specially in live voice recordings), so the engineer can fix their mistakes in post.

The ITU has tested AAC and found out, in double blind tests, that 128kbps is good enough for stereo music, 256kbps is good enough for 5.1.
 
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The ITU has tested AAC and found out, in double blind tests, that 128kbps is good enough for stereo music, 256kbps is good enough for 5.1.

Anything below 256 kbps AAC is noticeable. I don't care if it's AAC or MP3, although you'll notice way more differences with MP3, as it's an all-around outdated and frankly bad format to store music in - 256 kbps AAC ~ 320 MP3. 320 AAC just destroys what little is left of MP3 and at that point, why not move up to lossless?

Point is, with the right equipment 128 kbps AAC doesn't even become close to cutting it. "Good enough" is unsatisfactory for many people.
 
I never really heard any difference. MP3 audio from the late 90's was good enough and I never recall any one complaining. TBH, sound was good enough even on compact cassette tapes.
 
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The old debate between people that are happy with what they have and claim you can't hear anything better and the people that want to hear better.

At the end of the day I don't see the fuss, i mean it is good to have choices, you do not want hi res or can' t hear the difference? save space and money and use the "low res"version (if you cannot afford a high res file you probably do not have the right equipment anyway) want to hear the full high res file? you can (if you have choice).

Debating if you can hear or you cannot is kinda pointless, different equipment, file format and set of hears can make a huge difference, and just because one individual cannot distinguish A from B doesn't mean there is no difference for the rest of the world.

Personally i bought a Fiio X3 (bear in mind it is a very cheap player) last year, and have been listening to flac and DSD/DSF (real high quality not conversion) and I can tell the difference between the "hi res" mp3 and the flac (soundstage and clarity are really different) so i would be happy to have the option to download high res file from Apple, and i'll surely be happy if Apple allows others to have a "low res" version for people who want to save some money.

The world does not have to be either A or B, it can be both!!

Usually i use either the Shure SRH 440 or the Se 425 (IEM).

EDIT:
It's funny how people want choices and options, but when they are given the options they simply label them as "useless"

The highest bitrate MP3 is distinguishable vs a wav file. The highest MP4 is not. They are handled differently, thus the different mpeg distinction. MP3 even at 320 is obviously different in metallics, particularly cymbals. Most experts can a/b an MP3 without much effort. .m4a on the other hand is newer tech and is indistinguishable.
 
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Anything below 256 kbps AAC is noticeable. I don't care if it's AAC or MP3, although you'll notice way more differences with MP3, as it's an all-around outdated and frankly bad format to store music in - 256 kbps AAC ~ 320 MP3. 320 AAC just destroys what little is left of MP3 and at that point, why not move up to lossless?

Point is, with the right equipment 128 kbps AAC doesn't even become close to cutting it. "Good enough" is unsatisfactory for many people.

If you think AAC at 256 is the functional equivalent of 320 cbr MP3, please... Just stop. Or keep digging... But on this point, BS must be called. Psychoacoustic replication is very different between the formats, and MP4 built on over a decade of what Fraunhofer did with MP3 and nasty ol mp2.

So please. Staaaahp.
 
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Could we just have lossless audio please. These higher bit rates and depth sound no different. Also, sort out dynamic range, that's the biggest problem right now.
Of course sound they (VERY) different, but you have to have the right Hardware. What you need is a AD-Converter that is capable of reproducing 24bit depth and 44.1, 88.2 .. up to 192 Khz. And The amplifier with the loudspeakers also capable to do so.
 
Anything below 256 kbps AAC is noticeable. I don't care if it's AAC or MP3, although you'll notice way more differences with MP3, as it's an all-around outdated and frankly bad format to store music in - 256 kbps AAC ~ 320 MP3. 320 AAC just destroys what little is left of MP3 and at that point, why not move up to lossless?

Point is, with the right equipment 128 kbps AAC doesn't even become close to cutting it. "Good enough" is unsatisfactory for many people.


Source needed?
 
Maybe just a rumor, maybe already in the pipeline. Either way


picard_clapping.gif
 
As an engineer, I just can't read all this ******** that people eat from companies destined to sell snake oil, like "audiophile cables", "audiophile memory cards", and "lossless".

16 bit means that if you put it playing at the volume of a jet engine makes (outside the plane), the hiss will be as low as a whisper.

44.1KHz, means that it's good enough for sound from 0hz to 22,050Hz. The human hear cuts off everything over 19Khz or so. It's like ultra violet light, it's there, but you don't see it. Nyquist frequency.

The 44100Hz wasn't a random number, it was selected because it has multiple factors (Google for factorization), allowing digital filters with less processing power.

96Khz and more are not more frequency response, they just sample in the 48Khz band multiple times, to average the measure. It's only useful for recordings.

24 bit is also useful for recordings, because sometimes microphones level are set wrong (specially in voice recordings), so the engineer can fix their mistakes in post.

The ITU has tested AAC and found out, in double blind tests, that 128kbps is good enough for stereo music, 256kbps is good enough for 5.1.
There is no compression technology in this world where 128kbps is good enough.

Even the most up to date Apple AAC encoder with maxed out settings (VBR, Q127, 320kbps) is only "as close as it gets", but still not identical to the CD master. It's another good step up from Apple's own marketed "iTunes Plus" (VBR, Q127, 256kbps) settings they use for their backend AAC catalogue in the iTunes store.

A carefully dithered and bit-reduced CD master is good enough, everything else is just "snake oil". Bigger profits with worse quality and people even cheer for it.

False claims are just that, false claims. Every spectral waveform shows you the differences. The people that specced the CD (bitdepth and sample rate) were geniuses, they actually understood why going higher is not worth it and going lower is making unnecessary compromises. Your answer lies way in the past, you can forget about everything else.

CD (aka. original)


128kbps MP3 (aka. crap)


320kbps AAC CVBR Q127 (aka. decent)


The problem is that people don't want to be forced to listen to compressed audio when there can be choices. Some have higher quality equipment, some don't, so to make both happy, there either should be a CD quality "iTunes CD" setting, so they can enjoy their masters on high quality equipment and others (or even the same people) that are space capped (USB stick) or bandwith capped (iDevices) can listen to lower quality compressed versions. And there you have it, everyone would be happy.
 
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I guess this will be even a better reason in iOS to switch off the "high quality setting" under Music, Use cellular with hi-res audio.

To me in order to get a quality master u need good gear...

u can't expect to listen to a 24 bit audio with a $35 pair of Apple earbuds.. The quality will be there, but since its converted with the analog jack, its not going to be hi-def.. as as as result u won't hear the best it can be.. I doubt even a top pair of earphones will be "as good" just because its converted at the soundcard anyway.

Must be digital all the way from start to end.

Similarly with any conversion from 1080p its not going to be exact either.
 
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Yep! Redbook Audio/CD is created using (AIFF) files. They originate from a stereo masters (such as 24/96 or 24/44.1 or as I did last year 24/88.2) the masters are bit-rate-reduced to 16 bit/44.1 kHz using an added noise signal (very low-level -probably imperceptible) called dither in the process so that the 24 bit file isn't truncated. -It's like sawing a 1/3rd off of a boardboard, but filing the edges smooth so you don't get splinters.

So, if I were providing master files for Redbook CD, I'd have to do this (see screenshot) on the master bus to accommodate the dynamic range of about 34 channels of 24/44.1 audio. Note the session setup is 32 bit float.

View attachment 606521

Sorry, this was meant for QuarterSwede.
This is 100% correct.
Also I might add...
Most people use there iPod or iPhone to listen to music that's the first problem. You can't hear the difference with iOS devices. You need a true 24bit DAP that has the correct sound cards and compacitors. There is a night and day audio difference between my iPhone and my astell kern or ibasso DAP. Without hearing audio without a true headphone amp, they don't know
 
This is 100% correct.
Also I might add...
Most people use there iPod or iPhone to listen to music that's the first problem. You can't hear the difference with iOS devices. You need a true 24bit DAP that has the correct sound cards and compacitors. There is a night and day audio difference between my iPhone and my astell kern or ibasso DAP. Without hearing audio without a true headphone amp, they don't know

I think i am deffinlty in the minority. I am not going to try to dispute the snake oil of 24bit vs 16 bit. I prefer to have a higher resolution file as space is now cheap i see it as a non-issue to offer it as an option.

I use 256 on my mobile cause i have ****** headsets and Bluetooth audio.

At home on my massive separates i would love to have the ability to have on demand lossless audio so i no longer have to think about CDs or ripping I would be an apple music convert in a second. The current issue i have with it is it messes up my ripped CD collection that is lossless. I could start over with there catalog and augment i would. If it was lossless.
 
I have extensively been writing about this in several other threads on here...

ALAC or FLAC is not good enough, you need AIFF or WAV to really hear it as it was intended...better yet, vinyl :)

I was tracking with you until "better yet, vinyl". I listen to vinyl more than any format, but it's not "better" or "what was intended." It can sound awesome as an analog format (and I love it) but it's nowhere near the fidelity of the original mastered material, which these days is pretty much digital. :)
 
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There is some truth to that, if your goal is not to sell music at the highest possible quality, but to extract the greatest amount of money possible from some people's wallets.

If you follow the video and website link on the first page, you will see that 16 bit / 44.1 KHz for distribution is more than good enough for any human ears; 48 KHz was useful in a time of analogue filters but doesn't make any difference anymore. More bits doesn't harm or hurt (except for pointless use of storage), while higher frequencies actively hurt.

What makes a real difference is: 1. The quality of the master. 2. Not doing anything stupid while creating a digital master (that's what "made for iTunes" is essentially about). 3. Dithering and shaped dithering to get the quality far beyond what a human can hear. 4. For lossy compression, using decent software with high quality settings instead of low quality defaults. 5. Decent digital/analog converters. 6. Decent audio equipment for listening. Like $100 headphones instead of $20 headphones that are sold for $200.

Must of the "hurt" the music goes through is by being processed in one way or another for release after the various takes are in. That's by far where most the loss of fidelity occurs and well, there is no real fix for 99% of the music we hear out there.

For a few genre (Classical, Jazz, Blues, etc, many genre where they really on the instruments, including human voice's, subtlety to shine trough), they touch the live recording as little as possible, possibly even having everyone in the same room to do it :) and there you'd get the "real thing" (tm).

Then you assume you got top notch equipment at both end to record the stuff and then play it back... Not likely.

For nearly 100% of listening equipment/environment out there, you don't even get the best CD level reproduction let alone something better. Sometimes, people think what they're earing is linked to HD audio, when in fact they're just hearing proper CD level reproduction (which is so rare that they are amazed by it!).

So, even if you have a golden ear person, it would have to actually know the difference and actually care about the difference between CD and above and actually listen to genre where it makes a difference at all recorded in the best way and played on the best system.

Knowing the difference is important... People can't really know what the proper sound of something is unless they've actually heard it live and quite recently. Our brain is not that great at retaining this info with precision unless you're a trained musician. So, for most people it's their own preferences that's at play as a reference and not the actual original recording.

Anyway, the Golden eared person with a musical background listening to perfect appropriate material in perfect conditions
is a crazy small number.

For those people, hey, I'm all for them getting the best experience ever.
I myself just love hearing Jazz on the best system I can afford in quiet conditions, while I can hear pop/dance/most indie/hiphop music on whatever music system is available without blinking (because it's already processed to death anyway and it doesn't matter much).

Of course, there is a certain number of people who see value in the imaginary....

And that use case is probably higher (just like people swearing off gluten even though they have no sound medical reason to do so).
 
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There is no compression technology in this world where 128kbps is good enough.

Even the most up to date Apple AAC encoder with maxed out settings (VBR, Q127, 320kbps) is only "as close as it gets", but still not identical to the CD master. It's another good step up from Apple's own marketed "iTunes Plus" (VBR, Q127, 256kbps) settings they use for their backend AAC catalogue in the iTunes store.

A carefully dithered and bit-reduced CD master is good enough, everything else is just "snake oil". Bigger profits with worse quality and people even cheer for it.

False claims are just that, false claims. Every spectral waveform shows you the differences. The people that specced the CD (bitdepth and sample rate) were geniuses, they actually understood why going higher is not worth it and going lower is making unnecessary compromises. Your answer lies way in the past, you can forget about everything else.

CD (aka. original)


128kbps MP3 (aka. crap)


320kbps AAC CVBR Q127 (aka. decent)


The problem is that people don't want to be forced to listen to compressed audio when there can be choices. Some have higher quality equipment, some don't, so to make both happy, there either should be a CD quality "iTunes CD" setting, so they can enjoy their masters on high quality equipment and others (or even the same people) that are space capped (USB stick) or bandwith capped (iDevices) can listen to lower quality compressed versions. And there you have it, everyone would be happy.

Run that same test against ALAC and True VBR, please.
 
1. Lossless.. means... Lossless.
2. Vinyl is only perceivably better with someone with fantastic hearing, a $5K deck with $1K needle on a perfect pressing with great speakers / cans. 99.9% of vinyl for the rest of us is fuzzy static cracklefest.

Vinyl only sounds better on track 1 on each side - or a 12-inch single where only half the vinyl is cut - since sound quality and volume gets worse as you approach the center of it. And then only when the song has next to zero bass or cymbals in use...

Otherwise CDs should always reproduce better, 90s and early-00s discs not included since they were volume happy... Especially modern music, which is recorded digitally to begin with and the "lossless" vinyl cuts are from digital recordings anyway... And then there's electronic music that in general is bass-heavy and the only way the needle is going to track that right is if it's Mono rather than stereo...
 
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So, as someone with a £1200 DAC I welcome this rumour. I hardly ever buy iTunes music. I prefer bandcamp, bleep, boomkat and beatport as they offer lossless formats. As for the 'it's not the resolution nor the frequency response that needs fixing but the dynamics' here's an interesting article that should spark some further debate about loudness and dynamic range:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm
 
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