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Run that same test against ALAC and True VBR, please.
ALAC


AAC TVBR Q127 comes out to a tiny bit worse than CVBR Q127


CVBR also has a bit bigger file size (more information preserved). Other than that, I would say TVBR and CVBR at these high settings are practically identical (read: not bit-identical of course).
 
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That's physically not possible. Analog conversion to Digital guarantees at that moment the complete sound wave has been compromised and sampled to compress in favor of better data transfer rates. There is no means of restoring that original analog wave form and the entirety of ambient noise that the original recording session captures on tape or other non-digital recording.

MQA explained - http://www.musicischanging.com

This is a game changer. It's a very big deal.
 
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2. Vinyl is only perceivably better with someone with fantastic hearing, a $5K deck with $1K needle on a perfect pressing with great speakers / cans. 99.9% of vinyl for the rest of us is fuzzy static cracklefest.

I thought so too. But then I heard budget turntables (now $249 and up) getting much more music out of cd players for the same price. If you prefer cd/digital/whatever, that’s your choice, but your statement is just not true. And more expensive turntables are even better (just like their digital counterparts).
 
I guess this will be even a better reason in iOS to switch off the "high quality setting" under Music, Use cellular with hi-res audio.

To me in order to get a quality master u need good gear...

u can't expect to listen to a 24 bit audio with a $35 pair of Apple earbuds.. The quality will be there, but since its converted with the analog jack, its not going to be hi-def.. as as as result u won't hear the best it can be.. I doubt even a top pair of earphones will be "as good" just because its converted at the soundcard anyway.

Must be digital all the way from start to end.

Similarly with any conversion from 1080p its not going to be exact either.
It can't be digital from start to end. The end is the human ear and we can't hear digital music. The music has to get converted to analog somewhere along the line and in the case of iPhone, it's the 3.5mm headphone jack (which doesn't compromise quality at all.)
 
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There is no compression technology in this world where 128kbps is good enough.

For human hears, 128K is good enough.

Studies show that after 128Kbs AAC, you can't distinguish from the original uncompressed to the compressed version. People just try to guess, and "guess" mostly wrong.
 
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For human hears, 128K is good enough.

Studies show that after 128Kbs AAC, you can't distinguish from the original uncompressed to the compressed version. People just try to guess, and "guess" mostly wrong.
This is not about people that want to guess something, but about people that want an unmolested identical master, which is also on a CD. I hope you get it now.

Look at my spectral analysis, if you still don't get it, I don't believe for a second that you're an audio engineer, or just a very bad one or you're hearing is already massively degraded.
 
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Dynamic range isn't the problem with 16-bit, high-frequency distortion is. At high frequencies there are too few bits left to represent audio levels, and this coarseness causes audible harshness. It's especially noticeable on cymbals, which not coincidentally is an instrument lossy compression also has problems with. High frequency "smoothness" is one of the most noted qualities of DSD and high sampling rate wide PCM. Another benefit of high sampling rate is the distortion created by the low pass filtering digital recording requires can be moved out of the audible range, while it's still in the audible range at 44.1 kHz.
 
yes it is, knowing very well that was the intention in my post but you like to argue semantics so whatever... ALAC used to be referred to as AAC lossless before it was named ALAC. many people still refer to it as AAC lossless or Apple Lossless. they are all the same thing.

OK - missed your OP. Yeah the misunderstanding is from speaking in Appleisms. They can have a way of generating confusion ... If you ever ran into J. Johnston (the father of AAC), and told him ALAC was AAC lossless, you'd probably get another argument on semantics ;o)
 
"Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space."

You are very sadly misinformed. There's a reason DAC equipment that can produce higher bit rates and depth are selling like hotcakes in the several thousand dollar range. They do sound closer to the real thing. I've done several A/B comparisons with the Berkley Alpha DAC and if you can't hear the difference then perhpas you need new batteries in that hearing aide.

By the way, Meridian's new MQA format is supposed to be the best yet.
 
This is not about people that want to guess something, but about people that want an unmolested identical master, which is also on a CD. I hope you get it now.

Look at my spectral analysis, if you still don't get it, I don't believe for a second that you're an audio engineer, or just a very bad one or you're hearing is already massively degraded.

Spectral analysis doesn't measure S/N dude. That's good for frequency-domain, not time-domain.

The question is not "it's equal to the original", but "can humans detect the difference from the original".
 
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"Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space."
Regardless of your personal opinion, the reason Apple is going to do this is because the iPhone 6S can shoot 4K video, and take 12MP photos, not to mention all the other "professional" aspects of their video software.

Doesn't matter if you personally never use any of those pro features, or even if a majority of Apple's customers don't. The audio capabilities must match the video capabilities of the phone.
 
Spectral analysis doesn't measure S/N dude. That's good for frequency-domain, not time-domain.

The question is not "it's equal to the original", but "can humans detect the difference from the original".
I am not talking about S/N, but your silly last sentence quote that 128kbps stereo is good enough, which it isn't. People that can hear differences automatically are wrong, by your definition. That is also false.

No one in their right mind would call 128kbps sufficient for every case and every human on this earth. I hope that's not the point that you want to get across. Because it's just false.

If something is good enough FOR YOU, I don't really care. Because for me it isn't, as I don't like to make compromises with music.

Hearing well above 17khz still up to about 19khz is not everyone's gift, but some people have better hearing and they actually can hear differences, might surprise you, but you're not the only one on this planet, so be a bit more sensitive to your surroundings.
 
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I love the Hi Res audio arguments. There's an entertaining mix of BS and actual science flying back and forth.

I'll throw this in there. For the vast majority of consumers, what they get out of iTunes Plus on an iPhone with a decent set of buds is far superior to what the vast majority of consumers were listening to at pretty much any time in the prior history of recorded music. Most of the arguing likes to compare that iPhone setup to audiophile gear of days gone by. That's not the right comparison. The iPhone setup should be compared to Sony Walkmans, car cassette (and 8-track!) players, and Sears stereo racks playing slightly warped (and never cleaned) mass-produced vinyl.

Having bought a 4th Generation Apple TV, though, I'm interested in the idea of high-end audio coming through that device. It's already hooked up to a decent sound system in my case. Not super high-end audiophile gear, mind you, but better-than-average consumer-level gear. Playing Apple Music through it already sounds pretty good. I've also bought a few Blu Ray Audio discs for my Blu Ray player, which generally have sounded very good, though I can't attest as to whether it's because of the higher bitrate or because the mastering engineers were more careful, or most likely, some combination. Still, Dark Side of the Moon in Alan Parson's quad mix, or the more recent 5.1 mix literally adds a whole new dimension. There's no reason those sorts of experiences couldn't be delivered through the Apple TV box, so I'm all for it. Bring it on.

For me, though, the best part of Apple Music coming through the Apple TV is that it finally brings to fruition Frank Zappa's 1983 concept for just such a thing.
 
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I should point out that I work with audio all day long. I'm mostly a mix engineer although occasionally do some tracking (recording) as well.

Lossless is just a term used to name it because most people will view this as no loss in quality...NOT TRUE -- it is compressed about 3x smaller size than the original using algorithms which change the audio - it is NOT the exact sound as the original but instead a 400kbps or 500kbps file, which will take less space than an AIFF substantially but is not the RAW quality of the master.

Lossless audio is exactly the same as the uncompressed PCM audio on playback. I can convert from BWAV to FLAC or ALAC backwards and forwards a million times and the audio will not be changed, at all. I know it's hard to believe 'someone on the internet', but it's possible to do your own scientifically grounded experiment to show this with free software. Search for a 'sum and difference null test'.


If you're talking about an analog master, you'd be correct. Analog has an infinite sampling rate - essentially, an analog recording is one continuous sample. A high quality raw analog master can't be surpassed by digital technology, IMO, and that of a lot of people I know with sound engineering experience. You can come close, but there's all sorts of tradeoffs in choosing sides in digital vs analog. You get incredible clarity from digital and a lack of the old analog hiss, but you lose out on that warmth that turns out to be less subjective than people think. Digital gives better transient response, but analog gives a better soundstage. In my experience, I can "hear the room" better when I listen to a recording that is HQ analog at most if not all of the steps. Without getting into talking about the limitation of the SPARS code, AAD sounds better to me than ADD, which sounds better to me than DDD. I could never understand the point of a DAD recording, but thats another topic.

I'm sorry but this is wrong. Analog does not have an infinite sample rate at all, although the effects on the audio are somewhat different. In the analog world (on tape), the flux density refers to the maximum amount of magnetism which can be created by the tape before the saturation limit is reached (i.e. headroom), much like the bit depth of digital audio.

Analog audio still has a limited bandwidth due to the spacing between the opposite poles of the record & playback head in relationship to tape speed, hence why the Sync head of a tape machine will have more HF rolloff than the Repro head.

I hear what you're saying about the warmth of analog etc... but this can be perfectly 'captured' by a digital recording. Bear in mind that the warmth of analog comes from it's imperfections - non-linear distortions which are added in by the flaws in the technology. Digital doesn't add these flaws in, but it can capture them beautifully.

I use analog outboard in my mix setup, but largely mix in the box. Nobody has ever told me my mixes sound digital, and I'm often asked what (analog) console/mixer I use.


Nothing beats vinyl. Analog > digital every day of the week, even with all its imperfections.

Vinyl captured onto an excellent digital platform sounds identical.

I do love the experience of vinyl and usually listen to it every day.

I thought so too. But then I heard budget turntables (now $249 and up) getting much more music out of cd players for the same price. If you prefer cd/digital/whatever, that’s your choice, but your statement is just not true. And more expensive turntables are even better (just like their digital counterparts).

It's surprising how amazing a lot of cheap turntables sound. The Rega RP1 really does sound absolutely great, I'm a big fan.

But you're comparing two different recordings. To sit down and listen to the same album on vinyl and then CD means you're also listening to two different masters which affects the sound pretty drastically. I rip all my favourite albums from Vinyl to listen to on my iPhone because the masters sound so much better.


For human hears, 128K is good enough.

Studies show that after 128Kbs AAC, you can't distinguish from the original uncompressed to the compressed version. People just try to guess, and "guess" mostly wrong.

I'd beg to differ, I can hear the difference on my rather rubbish car stereo.


You are very sadly misinformed. There's a reason DAC equipment that can produce higher bit rates and depth are selling like hotcakes in the several thousand dollar range. They do sound closer to the real thing. I've done several A/B comparisons with the Berkley Alpha DAC and if you can't hear the difference then perhpas you need new batteries in that hearing aide.

By the way, Meridian's new MQA format is supposed to be the best yet.

What do you think has been causing the difference in sound you're hearing? Different masters? Poorly designed sample-rate conversion algorithms? Bad anti-aliasing filters?

Some converters do sound very different depending on the sample rate. The Lynx Auroras are a fine example. They sound excellent at 96KHz, good at 48KHz, and rather poor at 88.2 and 44.1 KHz (to my ears). These converters are found in lots of recording studios and have been around for a long time. I don't think they're particularly good but they do the job as long as you set them up correctly (which includes using the right sample rate).

However something like a Prism ADA-8 sounds identical when passing audio at 48 or 88.2 or 96 KHz (I didn't experiment with 44.1 KHz).

The differences you have heard are not directly due to the sample rate changing. When executed correctly, 48 KHz digital audio is entirely transparent for playback purposes.
 
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I'd beg to differ, I can hear the difference on my rather rubbish car stereo.
Same here. I did the spectral analysis test some months ago to choose the best format (since my car audio does not support lossless playback). It's an older Audi A5 with Bang & Olufson (marketing BS) speakers. It's enough to hear differences, though. 128kbps is just a no-go if you have the capacity for it.
 
You are very sadly misinformed. There's a reason DAC equipment that can produce higher bit rates and depth are selling like hotcakes in the several thousand dollar range. They do sound closer to the real thing. I've done several A/B comparisons with the Berkley Alpha DAC and if you can't hear the difference then perhpas you need new batteries in that hearing aide.

By the way, Meridian's new MQA format is supposed to be the best yet.

if you read the blog and watch the video, they do actually say that the quality of the DAC is important. A good digital-to-analogue converter will reconstruct the whole signal up to 20 KHz faithfully, while a rubbish converter won't. But the thousand dollar range sells "like hotcakes" (I'd like to see actual number :) ) sells because people have more money than sense.
 
Could we just have lossless audio please. These higher bit rates and depth sound no different. Also, sort out dynamic range, that's the biggest problem right now.

Yeah, the extra bits and sampling do absolutely nothing on the listening end. They are only really useful when doing recording and production as it gives you wiggle room. Lossless 16bit/44.1Khz would be a much better end goal. I also wish I could upvote your dynamic range comment a million times. It's so bad.

"Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space."

I love this video. He does such a great job of explaining how it all works. Anyone who is arguing for higher bit depth and sampling seriously need to watch this video until they get it.

Lossless doesn't cut it for me. I need the full raw uncompressed quality to hear it as it was mastered. Lossless dulls out some of the minute details, sharpness and punchy bass elements that you don't really get until you jump up past about 900k -- ALAC or FLAC is not good enough, you need AIFF or WAV to really hear it as it was intended...better yet, vinyl :)

Basically, anytime you add any kind of compression algorithm to the original it dumbs it down, fuzzes up the highs and makes the sharper elements of the bass less pronounced. It takes either a really good stereo system or high end speakers or headphones to pick up on this -- usually the larger ones with more bass response can differentiate the higher quality audio better from the compressed versions. With the bundled earbuds that come with the iPhone, they can't reproduce the higher end bass elements like a larger speaker system can, or even high end studio over-ear monitors, so you would not be be able to tell a difference.

I call BS on the lossless comment. The whole point of lossless compression is that it doesn't lose data. It is just compressed, and then uncompressed to the exact same output as it was in the beginning. This is how lossless compression works. What you are experiencing here is most definitely Placebo effect.
 
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The problem is that ironically the vinyl will often be offered with less dynamic range compression (loudness wars) than the CD release. So sad.

I think this is largely the reason people prefer vinyl in the end. It is going to sound a bit warmer as well partially due to the higher noise floor, so the imperfections cater somewhat to people that like that signature as well. Technically speaking though, CD quality digital audio is superior in every way.
 
Dynamic range isn't the problem with 16-bit, high-frequency distortion is. At high frequencies there are too few bits left to represent audio levels, and this coarseness causes audible harshness. It's especially noticeable on cymbals, which not coincidentally is an instrument lossy compression also has problems with. High frequency "smoothness" is one of the most noted qualities of DSD and high sampling rate wide PCM. Another benefit of high sampling rate is the distortion created by the low pass filtering digital recording requires can be moved out of the audible range, while it's still in the audible range at 44.1 kHz.

Sorry, but bit depth has nothing to do with producing the higher frequencies. The sampling rate does. The bit depth only impacts the noise floor and dynamic range. 44.1Khz sampling allows us to perfectly recreate frequencies less than 22.05Khz. The noise floor is already extremely low in 16-bit, and dithering helps it out even further. There is absolutely no need for greater than 16-bit/44.1Khz audio on the listening end. On the recording end that is a whole different story, but that isn't what this article is about.
 
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There is absolutely no need for greater than 16-bit/44.1Khz audio on the listening end. On the recording end that is a whole different story, but that isn't what this article is about.
Yes well it kind of is. If Apple intends "pro" level use of its iOS devices with 4K video, and advanced digital effects, with 12mp photos, etc. then they need to support basic audio specs for recording "pro" audio.
 
Yes well it kind of is. If Apple intends "pro" level use of its iOS devices with 4K video, and advanced digital effects, with 12mp photos, etc. then they need to support basic audio specs for recording "pro" audio.

The article is talking entirely about audio for the streaming end, which has nothing to do with production.
 
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