Apple Pay Holdout Walmart Expands 'Walmart Pay' to 16 More States

[Robert.Walter]

Guess I'm confused... How can they not accept Apple Pay, Android Pay, etc.? All retailers, by regulation, will have to support chip reader card scanners by the end of this year (which also means NFC capable). The contracts for Apple/Android /Other pay systems are with the card issuers (banks). Also by contract, retailers have to support the technology required by the card issuers. So how does this not work?

For example, I have a Chase VISA card. It works with Apple Pay. Walmart accepts Chase VISA cards. Therefore, my Chase card in my iPhone "wallet" should work just fine whether Walmart likes it or not.

The regulations are not law, only contractual and only have to do with liability shift related to the transition from mag stripe to chip cards. Far as I know, there is no requirement for a merchant to offer NFC functionality.

In the case of Walmart and (most of) the rest of the CurrentC ilk, NFC was disabled on equipped readers due to an pointless attempt to give CurrentC some breathing room. It is not unlikely that Walmart (assuming they have NFC POS devices) will continue with this methodology, since it earns them something between 2 & 5%, until something* makes giving up that windfall necessary.

* like customers using cards instead of the WP app, or seeing that certain desirable demographics are not using the app and are possibly moving away from the store.

 

[mantan]

Guess I'm confused... How can they not accept Apple Pay, Android Pay, etc.? All retailers, by regulation, will have to support chip reader card scanners by the end of this year (which also means NFC capable). The contracts for Apple/Android /Other pay systems are with the card issuers (banks). Also by contract, retailers have to support the technology required by the card issuers. So how does this not work?

For example, I have a Chase VISA card. It works with Apple Pay. Walmart accepts Chase VISA cards. Therefore, my Chase card in my iPhone "wallet" should work just fine whether Walmart likes it or not.

They have to use the chip and pin system. They are not required to turn on the NFC functionality.
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My wife and I are finally at a point in our life where we take a small financial hit just to avoid Wal-Mart. For instance, we get free delivery of groceries from Hy-Vee if we spend at least $100 online (it's delivered from our local store, so it's not limited at all). Little pricier, but I think it makes up for the time and gas spent taking a trip to the store (not to mention the headache). For staple items bought in bulk, Amazon subscribe and save is a great option, giving a 15% discount. We get lots of diapers, wipes, toilet paper, paper towels, toothpaste, soap, seasonings and canned food through it. I get a further 3% cash back with the Amazon rewards card I pay off every month. For most everything else, we go to Target.

I think Wal-Mart is a horrible company. I knew people who worked there and heard all kinds of horror stories. I boycotted them for a couple years in college, and it was hard to do as a struggling college student. Eventually I gave in, but luckily I'm free again. What probably helped push us was how crap the store is by our house. It's always so dirty inside—piles of inventory on palettes everywhere blocking paths, overcrowded with lots of crude people cursing loudly in public—often at their clinically obese children. It has really turned into a massive crap-hole.

A really good article on the retail war that Amazon is pushing against Walmart. The value proposition for Amazon increasingly becomes 'time'....especially as they move in to Pantry and Prime Now. I live in one of the Prime Now locations where you can get a lot of items delivered within 2 hours. At first we used it for a few miscellenous last minute needs - my daughter needed a flash drive for a school project, my wife's phone case broke and we ordered a new one before a trip. But increasingly we use it everyday items. I can make a Prime Now order for household goods, groceries, health/beauty supplies from the office at 2:00 and have it sitting on my porch when I get home. Saving the stop on the way home is worth a few extra bucks.

I know parents who use the Amazon Pantry box to send 'care packages' to their kids at college rather than make the trip to Target/Walmart when they visit.

 

[JamieLannister]

They have to use the chip and pin system. They are not required to turn on the NFC functionality.

And this is why the good ol' USA is so behind on these financial payment systems. This is why NFC payment systems are so slow to catch on and will be the same for at least the next 5+ years. And this is why android pay never caught on since originally google wallet and ISIS (softcard) was functional back in 2013 but never took off because you could use it at jamba juice the most and not accepted anywhere else.

I'm so glad for loop pay being bought by samsung because 99% of the places (even at gas stations with the push and pull out card readers) work with samsung pay - though you need to trick those terminals first to activate the sensor. I do not see apple pay or android pay working in the next 5 years - at least not at places where most people shop. I don't mean panaera bread and the like.

 

[tmiw]

I do not see apple pay or android pay working in the next 5 years - at least not at places where most people shop.

It's looking like most places that people shop are increasingly online stores though. Which coincidentally Apple has a solution for now.

 

[RedOrchestra]

It's looking like most places that people shop are increasingly online stores though. Which coincidentally Apple has a solution for now.

Absolutely negligible demographic for where Apple would like to see AP go, overall.

It's going to be a slow, slow rollout for Apple Pay.

 

[JamieLannister]

They have to use the chip and pin system. They are not required to turn on the NFC functionality.
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A really good article on the retail war that Amazon is pushing against Walmart. The value proposition for Amazon increasingly becomes 'time'....especially as they move in to Pantry and Prime Now. I live in one of the Prime Now locations where you can get a lot of items delivered within 2 hours. At first we used it for a few miscellenous last minute needs - my daughter needed a flash drive for a school project, my wife's phone case broke and we ordered a new one before a trip. But increasingly we use it everyday items. I can make a Prime Now order for household goods, groceries, health/beauty supplies from the office at 2:00 and have it sitting on my porch when I get home. Saving the stop on the way home is worth a few extra bucks.

I know parents who use the Amazon Pantry box to send 'care packages' to their kids at college rather than make the trip to Target/Walmart when they visit.

You might be real lucky but sometimes with Amazon even with their prime shipping is delayed or doesn't arrive on time all the time. I've had my fair share of missing packages or delayed shipping. amazon prime shopping is fantastic and I'm wholly satisfied but sometimes going to an actual store and being able to see/feel a product is better. Toysrus matches amazon so I shop there for kiddy toys and they are happy to match the pricing. Apple pay accepted there as well. I'd support these brick and mortar retail stores it's extremely difficult to face competition esp against amazon.com I'm glad they have come to business sense at least they will SELL A PRODUCT OFF THEIR SHELF even if it meant lower margins by matching amazon. They'd earn $0 if they didn't want to match.

 

[tmiw]

Absolutely negligible demographic for where Apple would like to see AP go, overall.

The various big box stores that are returning poor earnings reports right now seem to disagree.

 

[JamieLannister]

Absolutely negligible demographic for where Apple would like to see AP go, overall.

Exactamundo. Online shopping has been around for ages and it's not that difficult to buy anything online these days. Sure there may be a lot of risk storing your credit card online, etc. I use citibank virtual account before and still am on some shady websites. Apple pay is great and all but it's just too limited at places. The places that do offer it i almost never shop at. Panera bread, macy's, whole foods (rip off of all rip off) places that I can just shop on amazon and save.

They need to roll out at all mom and pop stores, grocery stores, hardware stores. Then that'll have a larger effect. Right now it's a total nerd gimmick to pay with because it hardly works at the places you do go shop in.
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The various big box stores that are returning poor earnings reports right now seem to disagree.

That's competition directly from amazon.com It's not from a simple NFC payment system. Too bad amazon.com doesn't even accept apple pay either...

 

[RedOrchestra]

The various big box stores that are returning poor earnings reports right now seem to disagree.

And you're saying that "increase" in on-line shoppers are all using Apple Pay?

 

[tmiw]

And you're saying that "increase" in on-line shoppers are all using Apple Pay?

No. It is a good opportunity for Apple to improve adoption though.

 

[RedOrchestra]

Then that'll have a larger effect. Right now it's a total nerd gimmick to pay with because it hardly works at the places you do go shop in.

Yeah, in Canada, merchants crossed that hurdle a long time ago and it's a rare day not to find a contactless pay terminal. Having said that, "real" restaurants are a long ways away from Apple Pay.

 

[mantan]

You might be real lucky but sometimes with Amazon even with their prime shipping is delayed or doesn't arrive on time all the time. I've had my fair share of missing packages or delayed shipping. amazon prime shopping is fantastic and I'm wholly satisfied but sometimes going to an actual store and being able to see/feel a product is better. Toysrus matches amazon so I shop there for kiddy toys and they are happy to match the pricing. Apple pay accepted there as well. I'd support these brick and mortar retail stores it's extremely difficult to face competition esp against amazon.com I'm glad they have come to business sense at least they will SELL A PRODUCT OFF THEIR SHELF even if it meant lower margins by matching amazon. They'd earn $0 if they didn't want to match.

In fairness, I live about 10 miles away from the massive Amazon distribution center in DFW...so my delivery experience probably isn't typical. I always get Prime shipments in 2 days and get the option of free 1 day shipping on a lot of things.

 

[JamieLannister]

Yeah, in Canada, merchants crossed that hurdle a long time ago and it's a rare day not to find a contactless pay terminal. Having said that, "real" restaurants are a long ways away from Apple Pay.

I don't know if canada still does this but when I visit Vancouver/Richmond to hit up some Dim Sum joints - they bring the little card swiping terminal to you at your table when you are ready to pay. Same goes for Hong Kong and Taiwan where I last visited 2 years ago.

In the US they take your card from you and go in the back. That's where the shady business can happen.

 

[mantan]

Exactamundo. Online shopping has been around for ages and it's not that difficult to buy anything online these days. Sure there may be a lot of risk storing your credit card online, etc. I use citibank virtual account before and still am on some shady websites. Apple pay is great and all but it's just too limited at places. The places that do offer it i almost never shop at. Panera bread, macy's, whole foods (rip off of all rip off) places that I can just shop on amazon and save.

They need to roll out at all mom and pop stores, grocery stores, hardware stores. Then that'll have a larger effect. Right now it's a total nerd gimmick to pay with because it hardly works at the places you do go shop in.
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That's competition directly from amazon.com It's not from a simple NFC payment system. Too bad amazon.com doesn't even accept apple pay either...

Agree about the 'nerd gimmick' factor. My wife loves to shop. But since Apple Pay is accepted at so few places, I doubt she's used it a handful of times - even at stores that accept it. Until it's widely accepted, the casual user isn't going to want to figure out 'does it work here or not' ....or look sheepish when they are holding out their phone and nothing happens.

 

[RedOrchestra]

No. It is a good opportunity for Apple to improve adoption though.

I don't know - I just go by Apple Wallet / Passbook and just how few companies actually have signed on - heck, they only have a few airlines participating for Boarding Passes.
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I don't know if canada still does this but when I visit Vancouver/Richmond to hit up some Dim Sum joints - they bring the little card swiping terminal to you at your table when you are ready to pay.

Yep, but I don't think they swipe anymore, they insert the chip card - geez, I haven't seen anyone swipe their credit card or debit card, in ages.

 

[JamieLannister]

In fairness, I live about 10 miles away from the massive Amazon distribution center in DFW...so my delivery experience probably isn't typical. I always get Prime shipments in 2 days and get the option of free 1 day shipping on a lot of things.

I love amazon - they aren't that bad but lately I have been getting their AMZL US delivery service - they have failed 2 out the 5 times delivering. I am happy with prime service - if they implement apple pay that would be nice too because it would be easier to check out. Right now it's easy enough as well so I don't see incentive in using apple pay at all...

I have samsung pay and let me just say out of fairness they really know how to market their stuff - Wife and I both got TWO free $50 gift cards just for using samsung pay (wherever I can) - and they are offering promotions all the time - every friday you just need to use samsung pay for anything no matter the amount and from 9 to 4pm PST you can qualify to win $10 gift cards if you purchase within the top hour of each hour every friday. Going on every friday thru July 8th I believe.

These are the types of promotions that give incentive for users to actually use the damn thing. I do not see any reason to use apple pay at all...that's even if it's accepted in the first place.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Never had a single problem using Samsung pay at walmart. In fact, used it everywhere where apple pay and android pay not accepted. This is absolutely cult behavior - all worked up because a store you'd never shop at anyway doesn't accept apple pay. Ridiculous how we were shopping everywhere apple pay was never accepted.

I've been using samsung pay at costco as well - but it's just stupid because they require you hand them your card and if I have to do that I might as well just use the card itself. Samsung pay rocks.

And last but not least I don't get all the consumer getting all worked up over a payment system. Just because we are in 2016 doesn't mean everything has to be apple pay this or apple pay that. Just use cash or a credit card. No it's too slow. No I don't want to it's not safe. No I don't care what walmart says because i won't shop there until they heed to my requirements. Good grief, tech nerd tantrums!

I think thou doest protest too much...or at least maybe you over amplify the sentiments of the others.

My mother, at 83, is quite far from being a tech nerd, but she loves her Apple Pay and Apple Watch.

This tag team has def improved her quality of life, by eliminating her need for collecting and reconciliation of receipts, and vastly reducing the worry associated with skimming fraud or card loss.

It has definitely affected her shopping patterns All things being equal, she will lean toward the merchants that facilitate Apple Pay transactions (she among family members is not alone in this behaviour.)

 

[oplix]

Walmart is aggressively positioning itself in the emerging mobile payment market. They do enough revenue in credit card sales to warrant implementing their own system, which they will aggressively market in their stores to not pay a commission to the merchant service (in this case being Apple). I'm sure they worked out the long term ROI on this.

 

[sudo1996]

Typical, everyone rushes to make something when a new market for it emerges, and most of them die off. This one probably won't survive.

 

[JamieLannister]

I think thou doest protest too much...or at least maybe you over amplify the sentiments of the others.

My mother, at 83, is quite far from being a tech nerd, but she loves her Apple Pay and Apple Watch.

This tag team has def improved her quality of life, by eliminating her need for collecting and reconciliation of receipts, and vastly reducing the worry associated with skimming fraud or card loss.

It has definitely affected her shopping patterns All things being equal, she will lean toward the merchants that facilitate Apple Pay transactions (she among family members is not alone in this behaviour.)

I'm all for NFC payments systems to be widely accepted. Except this "rollout" has been so piss poor you see more and more "banks" accepting apple pay but the retailers themselves are doing a piss job of actually making it widely accepted.

Your mother's case is awesome and that's how it should be for everyone but sadly it's not the case at the moment and I don't see it happening any time within the next 5 years. I don't think I can totally blame apple for this because the us govt should be responsible as well - force enough change in our payment system to make a difference. It's ironic they can bail out banks and businesses but they can't make a difference in getting everyone to use more secure payment methods.

And it's just too many smaller stores that see ZERO incentives to switch even if it meant protecting them in the long run. One big store is costco at the moment. They have the new citi issued sim cards now but you can't pay with your phone. I've used my samsung pay countless times (at first to try and it worked) - but then it's just dumb because they take your membership card which is also attached to the citi credit card and you might as well just swipe it. There needs to be more push to use NFC payments or else this is going to be extremely slow adoption.

 

[Robert.Walter]

I guess you aren't elite enough to have your former amex/costco membership on the same card...and I don't mean the verifone POS terminals with NFC. I meant samsung pay MST to the rescue.

Elite and Samsung almost don't belong in the same sentence. ;0)

 

[JamieLannister]

Elite and Samsung almost don't belong in the same sentence. ;0)

Come on now - give credit where it's due - samsung pay nailed it right with their MST. Accepted at more than 90% of the places and just as secure. Free promotional gift cards so much incentive to use - and best of all you will be able to actually use it at places where android/apple pay doesn't even exist.

 

[Robert.Walter]

I'm all for NFC payments systems to be widely accepted. Except this "rollout" has been so piss poor you see more and more "banks" accepting apple pay but the retailers themselves are doing a piss job of actually making it widely accepted.

Your mother's case is awesome and that's how it should be for everyone but sadly it's not the case at the moment and I don't see it happening any time within the next 5 years. I don't think I can totally blame apple for this because the us govt should be responsible as well - force enough change in our payment system to make a difference. It's ironic they can bail out banks and businesses but they can't make a difference in getting everyone to use more secure payment methods.

And it's just too many smaller stores that see ZERO incentives to switch even if it meant protecting them in the long run. One big store is costco at the moment. They have the new citi issued sim cards now but you can't pay with your phone. I've used my samsung pay countless times (at first to try and it worked) - but then it's just dumb because they take your membership card which is also attached to the citi credit card and you might as well just swipe it. There needs to be more push to use NFC payments or else this is going to be extremely slow adoption.

I generally agree with your analysis, but think the 5-year implementation you expect will be more like 1 - 2 years. The smaller businesses will eventually move to newer terminals as the older ones break or are obsoleted and not supported by the payment networks.

Re. Costco, I was curious, so on my mother's behalf, I called out to Costco HQ. They tell me that they are in the process of installing NFC POS terminals through the company. Unfortunately, neither the person I spoke to, nor the manager at our local Costco store (which has inactivated NFC capability), knew when the NFC would be switched on.

 

[AS90]

UK's biggest supermarket Tesco is still to roll out 'apple pay' outside London, very strange, I go to Lidl now who do accept 'apple pay'.

My local Tesco on The Wirral accepts AP.

 

[routine_analyst]

Derp does derp then realizes derp is a derp and reverses derp.