Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I never made assumptions of "entitlement". I said they block services like Apple Pay even though they make a lot of profit every year. I was referring to someone who said that the banks don't want it because it would cut into their profits something like $1 for every $100, yet they can still make billions of $$$ with it. TD offers it to their US customers, but won't/can't seem to offer it to their Canadian customers.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. But I want make a point that is even 1 dollar per 100 dollar is big... Banks to process billions of dollar transaction per day, 1 dollar per 100 dollars can add up very quickly.

If you are the CEO of bank, would you accept anything that hurts your profit? No... Unless banks can find way to recoup these losses, I would not see how banks could accept.

Like I said, I care lesson about Apple Pay in Canada. It not Genna magically change way people purchase stuff...
 
1% take would be huge, but that isn't what Apple is asking for.

What I'd like to know is how does Apple know it's getting its fair share of the pie? They claim to not know where you shop, how much you spent, what you bought, etc. If that's the case, the banks could easily rip off Apple. lol
 
Is it time to get an AmEx?

I've had one ever since I graduated from college/university. It was my first charge card, and remains the oldest account in my credit history. I keep it active because cancelling it would drastically reduce the average age of my credit accounts (an important factor in US credit rating).

At one point, I had a Platinum card as I traveled enough to make the significant annual fee worthwhile. But, I downgraded to one with a minimal annual fee. AmEx customer service has been always been good for me: they've sided with me in a merchant dispute when I think everyone else would have said "too bad".

You would still need to carry a VISA card, as there are merchants that don't accept American Express. But, dining, travel, and entertainment vendors almost universally accept AmEx, at least in the US.
 
so, [we] wait a full year while the most others get theirs within a few months ?

how is that playing fair.
 
What sketchy areas do you live / shop in?

Smartphones are everywhere, you see people text everywhere. Whipping out your smartphone to make a payment isn't a big deal.. hence my question.

I work in a less than reputable area where petty crime is relatively high. Criminals are not intelligent -- they're opportunistic. Just last week, someone was beaten/robbed for their smartphone about 2 blocks from where I work, so it happens more than you think. Not everyone is a latte-sipping urbanite, if you catch my drift.
 
Hm no. The banks' service is financial service which they provide to their customers through their infrastructure and programs. Things like contactless payments etc have already been implemented widely in many countries and the customers have been able to use them without any issues. The banks have done their job.

Apple, on the other hand, wants the banks to pay them just to deliver the bank's existing services. Apple's solution offers the banks zero incentives, either directly or indirectly, because the banks (again not in the US) have already been able to provide widely the same thing to their customers. Furthermore, Apple wants to sell its hardware though its software, that's why it introduces Apple Pay. Apple is not interested in doing anything free to its customer. So it is ludicrous that it wants to charge both the banks and its own customers for something that they can do, easily, without Apple.

Anyway, if Samsung launches Samsung Pay faster than Apple, it'll be another embarrassment for them in terms of their services.

Regardless of what Apple does or does not do to sell their service and if what they are doing is right. If the customers want Apple Pay then its the banks duty to give it to them.

I personally see Apple Pay as a service that is ten fold better than what the Banks are able to provide. All of the banks' version of mobile payment are not even close to acceptable hence they havent taken off.

Heck, until recently most banks didn't even have a decent app.
 
Have you tried making a purchase of more than CAD$ 100 with your contactless card? Good luck!

Even for small transactions, I find Apple Pay is more convenient than contactless. By the time you dig out your wallet, find the appropriate card, tap it, and put it all back again, you might as well have just paid more securely using Apple Pay. This is particularly true when tapping in and out on the Tube ("Subway" for you North Americans!)

It's even better with the Apple Watch, which lets you skip the Touch ID authentication altogether (but is still secure, as the watch will lock when it's removed from your wrist).

How is digging out your wallet any different than digging out your phone?

I actually don't carry a wallet -- just 4 essential cards in my pocket. It takes me less than 5 seconds to remove the card from my pocket, tap it, and be on my way.

LOL, our 'tube' is not that advanced. It's cash only -- you can't even buy tokens with debit or credit, never mind NFC payments. That's a story for another day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stella
Entitlement!

Customers want zero interest mortgages, zero penalties.... thats not going to happen, right?

Regardless of what Apple does or does not do to sell their service and if what they are doing is right. If the customers want Apple Pay then its the banks duty to give it to them.

It's cash only -- you can't even buy tokens with debit or credit, never mind NFC payments. That's a story for another day.

Actually, you can these days, but only in subway stations.. But yes, payment options are a complete joke. No exact change on a Streetcar / bus... got to get change ( or a token ) first. Being able to pay by phone, even if it was via Presto app, would be a step huge step forward.
 
Last edited:
Entitlement!

Customers want zero interest mortgages.... thats not going to happen, right?

Entitlement? Lol far from it

If Bank A offers zero interest mortgage and Bank B doesnt, then I will be banking with Bank A.

Do you not choose cars based on features or gym memberships based on facilities? Or do you just do what the sales person tells you?
 
Customers want zero interest mortgages, zero penalties.... thats not going to happen, right?

So what you're saying is, I won't be able to negotiate with the bank to pay me when I renew my mortgage?

Entitlement? Lol far from it

If Bank A offers zero interest mortgage and Bank B doesnt, then I will be banking with Bank A.

Do you not choose cars based on features or gym memberships based on facilities? Or do you just do what the sales person tells you?

As I mentioned upthread.. If NO bank offers zero interest mortgages then nobody gets it. If they all offer the same rates (or in this case no Apple Pay) then there isn't anything a customer can really do.
 
So what you're saying is, I won't be able to negotiate with the bank to pay me when I renew my mortgage?



As I mentioned upthread.. If NO bank offers zero interest mortgages then nobody gets it. If they all offer the same rates (or in this case no Apple Pay) then there isn't anything a customer can really do.

And you are right but we have AMEX now offering Apple Pay.
 
No bank has to offer ApplePay, if it isn't their business interest then they won't.

The OP claimed it was the bank's *duty* to offer it. The quote you posted was in response to the OP claiming "if the customer wants Apple pay, it is the bank's *duty* to offer it.

That is entitlement..

Entitlement? Lol far from it

So what you're saying is, I won't be able to negotiate with the bank to pay me when I renew my mortgage?
 
Last edited:
Can someone explain why Apple Pay can't just be a solution that works anywhere where contactless nfc payments are accepted other than wanting to be in control of the process? Not being snide or a "hater", asking seriously.

I heard something like $1 for every $100 spent. I've read some where that apple's cut into the processing fee was too much for the banks to deal with as it would cut into their profits

The banks make most of their profits from the transaction fees that merchants pay when you use debit/credit. Since Apple acts as a messenger here, they want to take a cut from that fee and the banks don't like that because that means they wouldn't make as much money. It has nothing to do with lack of tech (most places have had the tech for a while)

As most credit cards companies in Canada use NFC in there cards, other than security (which would reduce costs for the CC companies), what does Apple bring to the table for them? Yes convenience for customers but banks don't care about that too much.

I wonder if the reduction in profit is offset by the reduced costs of fraud. If I lose my credit card with tap, anyone could use it and that must happen lots.

I think they need cooperation from the banks as it is their merchant terminals that are used in each store. The banks in Australia and Apple cannot come to an agreement on interchange fees.

Apple Pay is the first implementation of a new EMV tokenization standard. Short version: when you add your card to your Wallet, your iPhone contacts a server operated by the card issuer and eventually your bank, to validate your card is valid and create an alias (the "device account number" or DAN). Both your bank and your iPhone remember the DAN. Apple is briefly involved in this process.

When you use Apple Pay, the merchant's terminal only receives the DAN. It submits that, along with some other encrypted fields. Your bank must then map the DAN to your account, validate the other fields, and then decide whether to authorize the transaction. This is why NFC doesn't "just work": your iPhone doesn't have your true account number, and the bank must build a new back-end systems to do the mapping. Also, Apple is not involved in the transaction at all -- only the initial step to add the card to your Wallet.

Among the other fields in your transaction is a sequence number that is unique to the transaction. There's also a merchant ID, and a cryptographic signature. So, even if someone were to capture your DAN, they can't use it to commit fraud. They can't even "replay" the transaction a second time to double-bill you. This is the additional security that Apple Pay provides for the bank.

Your iPhone looks like a contactless card to the merchant terminal, so there should be no changes required at the merchant if they already support NFC. However, there have been some issues with some transaction processors corrupting the data in transit, requiring updated software and hardware. But others have had no problem.

In the US, banks have been willing to pay a small amount in exchange for this additional security. One benefit is they don't have to reissue a card if the DAN is compromised: you just delete the card from your Wallet and add it again, and you'll have a new DAN. Historically, this has been a large expense over the past few years when the systems of high-profile retailers have been compromised. And of course, you have to authenticate a transaction on the iPhone each time. Also, you can remotely delete the contents of your Wallet.

Apple's fee? In the US, it is reportedly 15 cents per $100. The bank's portion of the transaction fee is about $1.50 per $100, so it's a relatively small amount in exchange for eliminating an entire class of credit card fraud. A few banks have botched the implementation by not sufficiently validating the addition of a card to the Wallet, but I expect that will eventually be resolved.
 
Why is security your concern? I have never had a bank not refund a fraudulent transaction.

Fraudulent transactions aren't "free". The cost is spread among everyone: the bank's customers and the merchant's customers. It's included in the price of everything you buy.

But a more immediate benefit: if a card number is compromised, the card must be reissued. Beyond the cost for the bank, you have to update any authorizations for periodic transactions. That's a real cost for you, at least in time.
 
No bank has to offer ApplePay, if it isn't their business interest then they won't.

The OP claimed it was the bank's *duty* to offer it. The quote you posted was in response to the OP claiming "if the customer wants Apple pay, it is the bank's *duty* to offer it.

That is entitlement..

Not when one bank is offering it but the others aren't. I am not saying the bank HAS to offer it, they just need to offer it to keep my business.

Again, same way if one car offers ABS or a touch screen but other cars dont. The one with more features is going to get my money.
 
Who really uses American Express in Canada ?
Even Costco has gone with MasterCard now :D

I'll welcome Apple Pay when it has both Visa and MasterCard.

I use it all the time. Depends where you shop. Can't beat Amex for travel rewards if the card is used properly. Great service from Amex also. It is much more than a card.
 
However Amex contactless payment terminals are lacking in Canada. Here's to hoping Pay opens up Amex to the terminals in stores via a different exchange method.

Its not that in Canada Amex terminals are lacking...

its that some merchants do not accept Amex cards due to their higher transaction fee's that they must pay to Amex.

Apple isn't going to open up anything.

What Apple is doing is basically controlling the NFC portion of the device, unlike on Android where you can load up any wallet and add cards and then Tap away, with iPhone the only way to add a contactless credit card is IF apple approves it...and that they only do once they get a cut example $0.15/$100 that a customer spends in total.

In Canada and Australia they already have NFC terminals at I would say >90% of stores of any kind/size and 100% of all Debit/Credit cards support NFC Tap payments. Apple is basically bringing the convenience of not carrying your wallet or carrying so many cards by putting them all on one phone but they won't allow that to happen unless the Credit card issuer is willing to share $0.15/$100 that a customer spends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: appledefenceforce
As someone who basically only ever uses Amex in the US, and I'm not talking about nationwide retailers, but every local store or restaurant (my yoga school is the *only* one that just takes Visa) I am puzzled by the Amex not being widely used in Canada (clearly there is more resistance to it in Europe as well, but still pretty rare for our vacation trips).

From what I know Apple Pay's fee for banks is ¢0.15 per $100.

Don't be puzzled. It is the same thing repeated by non Amex users over and over.
 
Its not that in Canada Amex terminals are lacking...

its that some merchants do not accept Amex cards due to their higher transaction fee's that they must pay to Amex.

Apple isn't going to open up anything.

What Apple is doing is basically controlling the NFC portion of the device, unlike on Android where you can load up any wallet and add cards and then Tap away, with iPhone the only way to add a contactless credit card is IF apple approves it...and that they only do once they get a cut example $0.15/$100 that a customer spends in total.

In Canada and Australia they already have NFC terminals at I would say >90% of stores of any kind/size and 100% of all Debit/Credit cards support NFC Tap payments. Apple is basically bringing the convenience of not carrying your wallet or carrying so many cards by putting them all on one phone but they won't allow that to happen unless the Credit card issuer is willing to share $0.15/$100 that a customer spends.

No, I've tried tapping my Amex cards where I shop. Visa and MC cards will tap. Amex won't. Some stores have placed little signs saying not to tap with Amex. NFC is huge in Canada. Just not Amex tap ones.
Ex. Amex sent me an offer to fill up at Esso and get $10 back twice. Amex cards won't tap at Esso! Amex sent me there.
Hopefully the token system explained above will allow Pay Amex to work everywhere Amex is accepted.

*Huge and loyal Amex fan due to what they have provided me with throughout the years.
 
Ah, OK, I understand where your coming from.

When one bank starts supporting ApplePay, the other banks will - like dominos.

Not when one bank is offering it but the others aren't. I am not saying the bank HAS to offer it, they just need to offer it to keep my business.

Again, same way if one car offers ABS or a touch screen but other cars dont. The one with more features is going to get my money.
 
What about Visa and Mastercard?

VISA and MasterCard are issued by member banks. So, each one has to implement the necessary back-end systems to support EMV tokenization.

For the most part, American Express issues their own cards. So, there's only one back-end system to change, and since they've already implemented it in the US, it's a relatively easy deployment. As the article notes, Canadian banks have been "dragging their feet", so this is a good move by both AmEx and Apple: AmEx has (at least the temporary) opportunity to expand their marketshare, and Apple gains a lever to "motivate" the Canadian banks.

Note: there are some AmEx branded cards issued by banks, and I don't know if those will be included in this launch. It will depend on whether the bank or AmEx does the back-end processing, and who (AmEx or the bank) pays Apple's fee on every transaction.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.