Apple Pay Roundup: Everything We Know, Coming in October

[gnasher729]

I have a iPhone 5S, but don't want the watch. I wonder if I can still make online payments with it instead?

No chance. Payments need to be 100% secure. They need to be secure even if you jailbreak your phone, install malware on it, anything. That's achieved by having a special chip in the iPhone 6 that does all the work and that cannot be hacked from the outside. The iPhone 5s doesn't have that chip, so it cannot use Apple Pay.

Nope, the 5S doesn't have NFC so you need a 6 or the watch, which do have NFC

iWatch has NFC, but it doesn't have the chip that does the encryption. It needs an iPhone 6.

 

[dontwalkhand]

What I'm a bit unclear on is if a store needs to explicitly show that they accept Apple Pay or will it just work with an NFC enabled payment terminal. The call out of specific merchants as partners coupled with the news that Walmart and someone else reportedly opted out made me think initially that stores would need to indicate explicitly that they accept Apple Pay. However, you go to the Apple Pay site and you see this: Image

That's what I understand to be a universal indication of NFC payments which leads me to believe the merchants specifically called out are just actively committing to NFC payment and since ive never seen NFC at Walmart theyre simply just refusing to adopt the tech period in favor of some other backwards wallet method no one will use. But then there's the whole Apple supposedly getting a cut of each Apple Pay transaction so then it seems even with an NFC terminal your phone may get rejected and thus you looking like an idiot as you wave your phone around if merchants who have NFC but i guess did not agree to Apple Pay. I think you see my confusion. I'm anxious to try I but if I constantly need to wonder if it will work then I dont know. There are some things Apple REALLY needs to clear up when this thing launches.

To make matters worse, a lot of places I shop at here in Arizona HAVE NFC, but they don't advertise it whatsoever, I just have to tap the card to the screen, and then magically the thing works.

Basha's grocery stores is famous for this, the screen says NOTHING other than "Please Slide Card"....It is the newer Verifone terminal, I tapped my PayPass card to the screen, and 4 green circles show up, and it processed, I grabbed my receipt, collected my stuff from the bag boy and left.

Whole Foods is like this too, it just says "Please slide card", but you tap the card to the screen, and then the NFC comes to life, randomly, almost out of nowhere.

No wonder why NFC never took off before the "mobile revolution"...with the way the store's machines are programmed, to the untrained eye, it looks like they don't take NFC payments at all...when in fact they do. This is probably a part of lazy programmers.

Walgreens and Home Depot and gas stations are the only places I know that put the symbol on the register, and let people know they take contactless payments.

 

[technima]

There are a couple of things missing or wrong in the roundup.

"The iPhone itself has a special dedicated chip called a Secure Element that contains all of a user's payment information, and credit card numbers and data are never uploaded to iCloud or Apple's servers. When a transaction is made, the Device Account Number is sent via NFC, along with a one time dynamic security code unique to each transaction, both of which are used to verify a successful payment."​

The standard dynamic EMV cryptogram is also sent.

"Dynamic security codes, better known as tokenization, are not unique to Apple and are built into the NFC specification that the company is adopting. In fact, much of the Apple Pay system is built on existing technology."​

Dynamic Security Codes are not the part of card data that's tokenized. The Device Account Number and the cryptogram (which is created by the token key in the secure element) are the tokens referred to in "tokenization". The Dynamic Security Code is not used to detokenize the credit card number. The Dynamic Security Code is used by the bank to verify the card's authenticity.

Though the Dynamic Security Code is not formally used as a token in the Apple Pay system, in cryptographic theory it would be considered as part of the token since it helps obfuscate the card's actual Security Code.

 

[Chrjy]

yes but this is different. VISA and Mastercard have been waiting for NFC to catch on and will push it forward.

europe also currently has alot more NFC capable card readers than the USA.

Mmmm...that's a good point. Not sure what it would take to update their NFC machines but it's something I would definitely like to see...I'd love to lose my wallet (not literally!).

 

[jclo]

What I'm a bit unclear on is if a store needs to explicitly show that they accept Apple Pay or will it just work with an NFC enabled payment terminal. The call out of specific merchants as partners coupled with the news that Walmart and someone else reportedly opted out made me think initially that stores would need to indicate explicitly that they accept Apple Pay. However, you go to the Apple Pay site and you see this: Image

That's what I understand to be a universal indication of NFC payments which leads me to believe the merchants specifically called out are just actively committing to NFC payment and since ive never seen NFC at Walmart theyre simply just refusing to adopt the tech period in favor of some other backwards wallet method no one will use. But then there's the whole Apple supposedly getting a cut of each Apple Pay transaction so then it seems even with an NFC terminal your phone may get rejected and thus you looking like an idiot as you wave your phone around if merchants who have NFC but i guess did not agree to Apple Pay. Add to that that Walgreens near me has had those NFC terminals for years now. I suppse they were just never turned on? I think you see my confusion. I'm anxious to try I but if I constantly need to wonder if it will work then I dont know. There are some things Apple REALLY needs to clear up when this thing launches.

Apple Pay will work at any NFC enabled payment terminal.

 

[Fenez]

If the store takes NFC , then it will work... Apple pay is NFC just like any NFC there is no different merchant hardware that says apple pay on it... If a guy walks up with an android and uses it then someone with an iPhone can.

 

[McPc]

I have a Discover Card associated with my iTunes account which as far as I can tell isn't one of the participating Apple Pay Credit Card vendors. I want to add a Wells Fargo Visa for NFC purchases but I do not see any option in iTunes to add a card to my account. I do not want to swap out the Discover Card for the Visa. Will there be another way to add the card to Apple Passbook?

 

[rictus007]

I have a iPhone 5S, but don't want the watch. I wonder if I can still make online payments with it instead?

I was expecting some kind of solution for the 5s, so guess I'm a litter bit disappointed. But if it will strictly use NFC and will not store the credit card data at any other place than my phone...the 5s was not designed to do that.

I think I'll buy the watch...probably...I will like to try it first.

 

[linuxcooldude]

No chance. Payments need to be 100% secure. They need to be secure even if you jailbreak your phone, install malware on it, anything. That's achieved by having a special chip in the iPhone 6 that does all the work and that cannot be hacked from the outside. The iPhone 5s doesn't have that chip, so it cannot use Apple Pay.



iWatch has NFC, but it doesn't have the chip that does the encryption. It needs an iPhone 6.

While the iPhone 5S may not be able to use ApplePay it still has a special onclave to store its TouchID information.

 

[nutmac]

Am I correct in assuming that Apple Pay will work anywhere that accepts EMV-based contactless payment (American Express ExpressPay, MasterCard PayPass, and VISA payWave)?

 

[technima]

Am I correct in assuming that Apple Pay will work anywhere that accepts EMV-based contactless payment (American Express ExpressPay, MasterCard PayPass, and VISA payWave)?

Yes

 

[dontwalkhand]

Am I correct in assuming that Apple Pay will work anywhere that accepts EMV-based contactless payment (American Express ExpressPay, MasterCard PayPass, and VISA payWave)?

Yes. Any store that takes contactless cards, will take NFC as payment.

 

[yg17]

Apple Pay will work at any NFC enabled payment terminal.

So who is Apple taking their cut from?

If I'm a retailer and I accept NFC but never specifically signed a deal with Apple, how can they collect a dime from me? Or is Apple collecting it from the banks?

And presumably Apple Pay, Google Wallet, ISIS (no, not those *******s who behead people) and all other NFC based systems follow the same standard and send essentially the same data (albeit encrypted with different keys, no not bit for bit identical) to the card reader, so how is Apple Pay any more secure than the others?

 

[gnasher729]

Hmm. Won't there be any sort of branding? How will we know if it takes Apple Pay?

Any NFC payment terminal will take Apple Pay.

Normally, the terminal identifies your debit card or credit card.

With Apple Pay, your iPhone creates a virtual credit card. The NFC terminal doesn't realise it's not a real card. It send the data about the credit card for example to Visa, Visa has worked with Apple and figures out that this is an Apple Pay virtual credit card and accepts it, so the NFC terminal accepts your card.

The NFC terminal has no idea what was going on. It only knows that it was given details of a card (it doesn't know it was a virtual card) and that Visa accepted the card.

The nice thing is that this virtual credit card will be used only _once_ for that one payment. So if you have a company losing 56 million credit card numbers to hackers, the hackers don't have your card number. They have a virtual card number that was accepted for that one payment, and won't be accepted for any other payment ever again.

And presumably Apple Pay, Google Wallet, ISIS (no, not those *******s who behead people) and all other NFC based systems follow the same standard and send essentially the same data (albeit encrypted with different keys, no not bit for bit identical) to the card reader, so how is Apple Pay any more secure than the others?

With Apple Pay, _nobody_ will ever see your credit card number. That includes Apple. Your credit card number cannot be stolen because nobody ever has it. That's different with Google Wallet. And Apple Pay requires a secure chip in the iPhone that does all the work, and that chip is not hackable.

 

[bushido]

They're working with Debit as well so I wonder if that would be an option there? Germans don't tend to like using credit, right?

we have our own system "electronic cash cards" that most places take but its not a visa or mastercard etc. kinda hard to explain

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash

and of course major cities like Berlin or Munich take credit cards more often than smaller places but honestly i am tired of asking if i can use one anywhere i go so i just use my "EC Card" whenever i can so i dont have to hold up the line with a credit card or end up getting rejected.


i still havent had the chance to use "wave" of my visa card anywhere. i assume thats nfc right?

 

[UnfetteredMind]

I have a Discover Card associated with my iTunes account which as far as I can tell isn't one of the participating Apple Pay Credit Card vendors. I want to add a Wells Fargo Visa for NFC purchases but I do not see any option in iTunes to add a card to my account. I do not want to swap out the Discover Card for the Visa. Will there be another way to add the card to Apple Passbook?

Discover Card is working with Apple to get on Pay, so you just may need to wait a bit for them to be rolled in.

 

[HarryWild]

I purchased a new iPhone 5S and the NFC was not a selling point since there is very little terminals that take NFC anymore. The cost of upkeep was to much for many stores.

Starbucks is the only one I know of that still uses the NFC option! I have their Gold card so I good to go; since I get free stuff from them each month! LOL!

NFC might be a good feature in 2-3 years from now; when I do upgrade to another 2016-2017 smartphone. But for now; the iPhone 5S is just fine! I do not plan to upgrade to 8.0.2 iOS either! Why slow your iPhone down? I learn from my iPod Touch; to not to upgrade and it still running as fast as I purchase it back in 2011! But I did upgrade some of the apps to my sorrow; and so I upgrading to the iPhone 5S! Love the phone and its looks! Not loving the iPhone 6's antennas on the back cover! Main reason I did not buy the iPhone 6!

 

[rsocal]

NFC IS a standard, Apple will force more stores to have NFC, which means even the Android users will win, because if it supports Apple Pay, it'll support GW, and ISIS (Softcard) just fine...as well as the contactless cards given out by many banks like Wells Fargo, and US bank.

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Does your country generally not allow you to use credit card at normal B&M stores? If your country has a "cash driven" society (mostly Italy etc), then Apple Pay will be of no help to you. For "plastic driven" societies like the US, Canada, UK, etc, Apple Pay will help you out.

Oh, how I miss the days of cash driven business!

There's still nothing like the green paper!

 

[gnasher729]

While the iPhone 5S may not be able to use ApplePay it still has a special onclave to store its TouchID information.

Yes, but that is only for TouchID. The iPhone 6 has a different chip that handles the encryption for card payment. The principle is the same, but they are different chips for different purposes.

The iPhone 6s still needs the TouchID chip because that's the chip that gives the card payment chip permission to make a payment, but it can't make the payment itself.

I have a Discover Card associated with my iTunes account which as far as I can tell isn't one of the participating Apple Pay Credit Card vendors. I want to add a Wells Fargo Visa for NFC purchases but I do not see any option in iTunes to add a card to my account. I do not want to swap out the Discover Card for the Visa. Will there be another way to add the card to Apple Passbook?

There will be an application that takes a photo of your card, then has a serious conversation with your bank (computer to computer) to make sure that this is actually _your_ card, and then the card is added to Apple Pay. That's not done with iTunes.

 

[V.K.]

Hopefully all the kinks will be worked out and it'll be available in Canada by the time the 6S is released.

yep, that's great news and all but wake me up when this becomes available in Canada. might give me a reason to upgrade from my 5S. and it's really pretty ironic that the roll-out of Apple Pay starts in USA which has the least level of NFC adoption among developed countries. Canada, UK, Australia, Japan, Korea all have quite high NFC adoption levels by merchants already. So it would have been much easier for Apple to gain acceptance for Apple pay in any of these markets than in US. but of course that's not going to happen...

 

[iolinux333]

Any NFC payment terminal will take Apple Pay.

Normally, the terminal identifies your debit card or credit card.

With Apple Pay, your iPhone creates a virtual credit card. The NFC terminal doesn't realise it's not a real card. It send the data about the credit card for example to Visa, Visa has worked with Apple and figures out that this is an Apple Pay virtual credit card and accepts it, so the NFC terminal accepts your card.

The NFC terminal has no idea what was going on. It only knows that it was given details of a card (it doesn't know it was a virtual card) and that Visa accepted the card.

The nice thing is that this virtual credit card will be used only _once_ for that one payment. So if you have a company losing 56 million credit card numbers to hackers, the hackers don't have your card number. They have a virtual card number that was accepted for that one payment, and won't be accepted for any other payment ever again.



With Apple Pay, _nobody_ will ever see your credit card number. That includes Apple. Your credit card number cannot be stolen because nobody ever has it. That's different with Google Wallet. And Apple Pay requires a secure chip in the iPhone that does all the work, and that chip is not hackable.

Nice post. Now for the first time ever I understand why contactless is better than mag strip.

 

[yg17]

Oh, how I miss the days of cash driven business!

There's still nothing like the green paper!

Until your wallet gets lost or stolen and you have absolutely zero recourse to recover any cash in your wallet.

 

[iolinux333]

Oh, how I miss the days of cash driven business!

There's still nothing like the green paper!

Have you see the new $100 bills

 

[rictus007]

No chance. Payments need to be 100% secure. They need to be secure even if you jailbreak your phone, install malware on it, anything. That's achieved by having a special chip in the iPhone 6 that does all the work and that cannot be hacked from the outside. The iPhone 5s doesn't have that chip, so it cannot use Apple Pay.



iWatch has NFC, but it doesn't have the chip that does the encryption. It needs an iPhone 6.

People should not complaint about the fact that Apple is trying to make this system as secure as possible. I won't said 100%...it will be just about time before someone finds a way to hack it. Hopefully within few years, so by then just switching for a "7s" resolve the problem.

 

[technima]

So who is Apple taking their cut from?

If I'm a retailer and I accept NFC but never specifically signed a deal with Apple, how can they collect a dime from me? Or is Apple collecting it from the banks?

And presumably Apple Pay, Google Wallet, ISIS (no, not those *******s who behead people) and all other NFC based systems follow the same standard and send essentially the same data (albeit encrypted with different keys, no not bit for bit identical) to the card reader, so how is Apple Pay any more secure than the others?

They don't collect the money from the retailer. Instead, part of the money that the retailer pays to banks is now given to Apple. So really it's the banks that are paying Apple from the fees that the banks collect from retailers.

Apple Pay is built on top of the contactless EMV standard making it fully compatible with all existing contactless terminals. But with the help of the payment networks and their partner banks, they've created a system that's even more secure than any previous contactless payment system, including Google Wallet and ISIS (now called SoftCard).