Apple Pay vs Chip and Pin

[DynamicSausage]

The problem with waiting isn't with the system, it's with the way it's implemented in the shop. Many shops in the UK will accept a card payment in literally 2 seconds, therefore Apple Pay takes the same amount of time. The first shops that spring to mind with this are McDonalds and Asda (Walmart).

In some smaller shops the system is different and you can easily be waiting 30 seconds upwards for the payment to be approved. The only way this is different with Apple Pay is that you only have to hold the phone for a moment to pay whereas a card has to be in the machine the whole time, you'll still be stood there waiting the full amount of time for the payment to be approved. Strangely Subway is an absolute nightmare for this, for such a large chain of stores their card system is dreadfully slow but there are much slower ones out there.

 

[Richie2000]

There's already quite a lot of places in the UK that have no limit for Apple Pay. I've made high value transactions in M&S, Co-op, Waitrose, Giraffe and my local independent convenience store.

Really? I didn't realise that, I understood the limit was tied directly to the contactless limit. Good to know and I hope more retailers follow suit. Thanks for the info.

 

[upnorth85]

The Dodd Frank Bill set limits on pin based transaction costs to "protect" low income consumers who typically use bank check cards or Debit cards which are pin based. That created a perverse interest for banks to avoid pin based transactions and thus the move to only chip and signature and not chip and pin. Finance co panties even try to route debit card transactions through the signature route. No doubt retailers want to avoid having to do this. Welcome to the Current C which is like an endless pregnancy. That is led by Wal-Mart and other retailers who have this locked out Applepay. Include others such as CVS and Target in this group. So chip and pin will never be the default in the US. I tend to shop where Apple pay is allowed. If I do shop at Wal-Mart, I use my UNFCU chip and pin card, which I keep for international use in Europe and Asia etc.

 

[QuarterSwede]

The Dodd Frank Bill set limits on pin based transaction costs to "protect" low income consumers who typically use bank check cards or Debit cards which are pin based. That created a perverse interest for banks to avoid pin based transactions and thus the move to only chip and signature and not chip and pin. Finance co panties even try to route debit card transactions through the signature route. No doubt retailers want to avoid having to do this. Welcome to the Current C which is like an endless pregnancy. That is led by Wal-Mart and other retailers who have this locked out Applepay. Include others such as CVS and Target in this group. So chip and pin will never be the default in the US. I tend to shop where Apple pay is allowed. If I do shop at Wal-Mart, I use my UNFCU chip and pin card, which I keep for international use in Europe and Asia etc.

CurrentC is what Walmart and Target want because they get the buyer information and can track us. ApplePay doesn't give them that info so they can't track us and what we buy for advertising puposes. That's why they haven't gone the contactless route yet as contactless (ApplePay) uses one time use anonymous tokens. It'll happen in the long run because CurrentC's ease of use is supposed to be crap.

 

[sunking101]

Imagine the world we're heading into where you can never get hold of any cash. Where you're reliant on computers and those who govern them in order to do anything. What seems like a fun, high-tech and nifty new feature now may very well end up being a nightmare for some...

In much the same way that we have somehow been convinced to pay money for the very devices that track us and our viewpoints, we are now overjoyed at what is eventually going to become a huge restriction on our lives. Cashless transactions will one day lead to no cash whatsoever and our whole lives could be switched off at the press of a button. We couldn't pay our mortgage/rent, fill our car with fuel, buy food or medications. It's a scary Orwellian prospect that if we do anything that upsets 'the man' then we could literally be taken off the grid.

 

[JoeTomasone]

CurrentC is what Walmart and Target want because they get the buyer information and can track us. ApplePay doesn't give them that info so they can't track us and what we buy for advertising puposes. That's why they haven't gone the contactless route yet as contactless (ApplePay) uses one time use anonymous tokens. It'll happen in the long run because CurrentC's ease of use is supposed to be crap.

More than this, they want to save the cost of accepting the credit card. That's why CurrentC is geared to do ACH debits straight from your bank account - which has much less consumer protection, incidentally.

 

[Merkie]

Chip and pin is slower because it is more secure. With chip and pin, the transaction is authorized online immediately by your bank.

That being said, it's also literally 90s technology, which also explains why it's slow.

 

[upnorth85]

Not really. Chip and Pin can be off-line pin or on-line Pin. Most pins outside the US are offline. The US has a much better developed network and the transactions here are on-line transactions. So a cancelled card would be immediately flagged. Similarly the pin on my UNFCU is on-line verified in the US.

Chip and pin is slower because it is more secure. With chip and pin, the transaction is authorized online immediately by your bank.

That being said, it's also literally 90s technology, which also explains why it's slow.

 

[mdlooker]

No. USA card issuers know Americans are lazy and stupid. And that's the way they want to keep it.

Because Americans are less likely to use their card if they have to have a pin. It's just common sense from a business standpoint.

So I think until the USA has a chip and pin. There will still be fraud.

So that's it.. American citizens have all come together and decided how credit cards will be issued and methods of use. Americans decided on one system while other countries citizens decided on other methods of payments during in-card transactions.

lol .. ridiculous.

Perhaps Apple (US Company) has decided to use touch ID because they knew that US citizens are stupid and lazy so why not make the convent way to access their phones. Meanwhile the rest of the world isn't lazy and stupid so Apple decided other methods for everyone else in the world to access their phones!

 

[Merkie]

Not really. Chip and Pin can be off-line pin or on-line Pin. Most pins outside the US are offline. The US has a much better developed network and the transactions here are on-line transactions. So a cancelled card would be immediately flagged. Similarly the pin on my UNFCU is on-line verified in the US.

Most pins outside the US are offline? Where are you getting this information from? In Europe we've had chip and pin for years and they're all online in >99% of the cases (except for maybe some distant gas station in Scandinavia).

In any case, you seem to be conforming what I said, so not sure why you start you post with "not really".

 

[reclusive46]

Most pins outside the US are offline? Where are you getting this information from? In Europe we've had chip and pin for years and they're all online in >99% of the cases (except for maybe some distant gas station in Scandinavia).

In any case, you seem to be conforming what I said, so not sure why you start you post with "not really".

We use offline PIN in terms that the PIN is verified against the card as opposed to the bank (online PIN) but the majority of transactions still authorise in real time.

 

[Nermal]

In my experience, most terminals in NZ are configured incorrectly (creating a new session for each transaction instead of batching them, etc.) and take several seconds to process. Those that are set up properly (post office, for example) take less than a second. I suspect that something similar is happening in the US.

 

[tl01]

Used Apple Pay twice today and the transactions were almost instantaneous as usual. Went to Home Depot for something and had to use the chip nonsense... And first it wouldn't work until we swiped the card first...about two minutes of figuring out what the machine wanted and then we put it in chip and pin slot and I timed it...it took about 20 seconds before it was ready for me to sign.

 

[stulaw11]

Never used chip and pin before but with 2 new cars in the last month its SLOWWWW. Applepay it touch it close and ding it's done.

Hopefully it expands a lot more and retailers can use the excuse of having to upgrade their terminals now for chip to include NFC- a big hurdle was the hardware cost of new terminals to take NFC before which now need to be replaced anyway and most retailers are going to in order to avoid the fraud liability of the magnetic strip.

 

[Kiimora]

Don't forget Apple Pay is even faster since iOS9xx; you double tap your home button before approaching the terminal so you've authenticated the transaction ahead & its just literally tap & go like a physical contactless card or Oyster card in the UK, so am completely sold on Apple Pay. Also most retail outlets accept AP without shop floor limits; I shop at Zara & Apple Pay on the iPhone

 

[JoeTomasone]

Interesting development with the announcement of Chase Pay yesterday - a very CurrentC-like payment system based on QR Codes. Not surprisingly, they have an agreement with CurrentC makers MCX.

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the real benefit of Apple Pay is the security - the speed and convenience are just bonuses.

 

[convergent]

Interesting development with the announcement of Chase Pay yesterday - a very CurrentC-like payment system based on QR Codes. Not surprisingly, they have an agreement with CurrentC makers MCX.

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the real benefit of Apple Pay is the security - the speed and convenience are just bonuses.

The QR code sounds like a nightmare to use. I can't believe that is quicker. People have enough time fiddling with their wallet to get their credit card out. How can anything be better than Apple Pay. The biggest problem I've had with it is that they don't clearly identify where the reader is... would be good if they labeled that clearly. With an Apple Watch, you have to hold it pretty close to work.

 

[JoeTomasone]

The QR code sounds like a nightmare to use. I can't believe that is quicker. People have enough time fiddling with their wallet to get their credit card out. How can anything be better than Apple Pay. The biggest problem I've had with it is that they don't clearly identify where the reader is... would be good if they labeled that clearly. With an Apple Watch, you have to hold it pretty close to work.

I don't think I'd call it a "nightmare" - though "less convenient" is apropos. The real question will be how your Chase Pay account is funded - if it's through ACH debits from your bank account (like CurrentC), that's a show-stopper for me.

 

[ericgtr12]

Frankly, I was surprised at how slow it is. The first time I used it, the vendor plugged it in and then immediately went about other business behind her as she waited for it to complete. I realize it's a security feature but using the 20 year old carbon copy slide and sign was faster than this. IMO it's a huge step back, Apple Pay takes like 2 seconds.

 

[JoeTomasone]

Frankly, I was surprised at how slow it is. The first time I used it, the vendor plugged it in and then immediately went about other business behind her as she waited for it to complete. I realize it's a security feature but using the 20 year old carbon copy slide and sign was faster than this. IMO it's a huge step back, Apple Pay takes like 2 seconds.

The irony is that from a breach perspective, it's no more secure than mag stripe. The data is still sent, unencrypted, across the network to be processed by the acquiring bank. The only thing that chip cards do is (help) prevent stolen cards from being used - which is pointless here in the US since I don't think any issuing bank has enabled pin codes - it's all signature based.

Tokenization (Apple Pay, Samsung Pay, Android Pay) is what we should really be aiming for.

 

[0007776]

Really? I didn't realise that, I understood the limit was tied directly to the contactless limit. Good to know and I hope more retailers follow suit. Thanks for the info.

From what I've read the limit is tied to the contactless limit on older hardware. Newer terminals have more security and don't have those limits in place. So other retailers in the UK will follow as they upgrade their hardware.

 

[nebo1ss]

Chip and pin is so slow. I'm really surprised by how long it takes. I would think this would encourage merchants to want to use Apple Pay. Anyone know why chip and pin is so darn slow?

It is a lot faster than having to sign and show a drivers license as ID to do a transaction which is what America has been using for years. Chip and Pin has been in use in Europe for more than 15 years and i never understood why it was not adopted in the USA a decade or so ago. Of course Technology is now moving forward with NFC, Apple pay etc.

 

[melman101]

It is a lot faster than having to sign and show a drivers license as ID to do a transaction which is what America has been using for years. Chip and Pin has been in use in Europe for more than 15 years and i never understood why it was not adopted in the USA a decade or so ago. Of course Technology is now moving forward with NFC, Apple pay etc.

I have never had to show my driver's license during a transaction. Ever.

 

[nebo1ss]

I have never had to show my driver's license during a transaction. Ever.

Well I lived in New York for 20 years and it seemed pretty standard practice. We are not talking $20 transactions I always used cash for those.

 

[Aston441]

I find it incredible that America is only just taking up chip and pin. You're only 15 years behind

We know. No one knows how to fix things... well some people do, and it isn't going to be pretty... but that's a political discussion best held elsewhere.