Apple Privacy Chief: North Dakota Bill 'Threatens to Destroy the iPhone as You Know It'

[Ethosik]

And you can still use Apple's walled garden if you like, this bill does not change that, it gives you another option IF YOU CHOOSE

No you can't. We will see an Epic Store that will have exclusivity deals. And if I want Procreate or Affinity software that is ONLY available on Epic Store, I CANNOT use the walled garden can I now?

And I love how I have received responses so far on this argument that "oh just don't use the apps then". I am sorry, is anyone FORCING anyone else to even use Apps in the first place? So why do you even care that there is a walled garden? Just don't use the apps!

 

[Ethosik]

The problem you’ll have with this is every single developer will end up having their own app store because they don’t want to lose any of their profit to a 3rd party store. This creates more hassle for consumers as you would then have to have an account for each store, each containing banking information, personal info.

All the fuss and legal battles that are going on are simply because the big developers are throwing their toys out the pram, especially in epic games case.

apple is focussed on consumers privacy and because many companies profit off the things apple is closing off, they aren’t happy. If you take this into a different perspective, you wouldn’t be able to own a property for free without paying for local taxes, services and the essentials. Apple offers a secure reputable storefront recognised by billions yet the developers moan when apple wants to take a percentage of their profits in return for access to that storefront.

Oh be careful saying that! People will just respond with "just don't use the apps then". PEOPLE....DON'T.....GET....IT

 

[Ethosik]

Please answer this VERY simple question: Why should your fear of what may happen if there are alternative app stores interfere with me wanting to put what I desire onto my phone? You won't be going to them anyhow so how would a third-party app store affect you in any way?

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it"

Take a look at PC gaming and Epic vs Steam. Exclusivity deals impacted consumers by requiring another Store on their PC. Epic can certainly do this on iOS if this passes.

 

[AdamNC]

I was talking to my wife about this and our neighbors kid who is damn smart and only 8 years old pipes up with this.....

”The App Store is like any other store right?” I said basically. His reply was genius. “He said Wal Mart chooses what they sell and I can‘t just go in and put my lego houses I build on the shelf. So why is someone telling Apple what they can sell?” 😳

 

[Ethosik]

Be careful what you wish for. I think a lot of people aren't thinking this through. A lot people say just give us the choice, you don't have to use the other stores if you don't want to.

If iOS gets opened up to multiple stores, the supply of apps will get fragmented Apps will start disappearing from Apple's store and start showing up in either Tom, Dick or Harry's store. So everyone will be forced to go to the other stores because the app they want is exclusive to that store.

So now instead of just searching for the App you want, you need to open up 50 (500, 1000) stores to do a search. Then set up accounts and give your credit card to who knows who.

Need to update your app. You can't expect Apple to manage to update apps that they don't sell, so instead of hitting update all apps, you now have to go visit all the stores you bought from or even worse, you have to download their intrusive spyware updater app.

Besides all the security implications, does the general consumer really want things to go that way. Sounds crazy to me. For those that do and feel strongly about it, android has this option available to you now. If Apple's method gets destroyed, I have nowhere to go for the level convenience and security I desire.

Yes. I find this frustrating with all the streaming services out there. This is why I need to use sites like JustWatch to know WHERE to even find the show I am interested in.

 

[Ethosik]

No TV manufacturer has a monopoly. And there no demand for this. You comparison is not good my friend.

iPhone is not a monopoly. Even if it is, its legal in many scenarios. The argument becomes ridiculous when you make a market narrow enough like "iOS apps". Sony TVs have monopoly on the Sony TV OS.

 

[Ethosik]

Although I own basically every other Apple product, I have chosen Android for the same reason. I will not ever choose iPhone again until this stupid limitation is in place (all of my older iPhones were jailbroken, which is a suboptimal solution). Also, I don't want to be associated with people who don't know computers enough to distinguish a legit app from a malware.

As it should be! We all have our own needs and interests. I get iPhone because of this limitation. You don't like it so you went elsewhere. Boom - competition at work here!

What politicians NEED to be focusing on is the state of the internet monopoly. I only have ONE choice - Spectrum.

 

[Nuvi]

I don't think you understand encryption or sandboxing.

I very well do. However, you don’t seem to understand what malicious apps are capable of doing. You do understand that with side loading one can use vulnerabilities to circumvent sand boxing and in some cases encryption. You do understand that third party app stores and side loading is nothing short of jailbreaking. One can use private API’s etc. which would never be accepted on Apple App Store.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple is basically saying "the only way we can assure the security of the iOS platform is by prohibiting software that doesn't come from a platform that we control completely, which totally by coincidence we pull as much as 30% off the top of."

Which is weird because, again, non-App Store software absolutely can run safely on the Mac. So why can't it on iOS?

A lot of people in here parroting the official Apple line, which I guess is to be expected. But as a longtime Mac user, I'm not buying it.

Yes because hosting apps, CDN, reviewing apps, being customer support between customer and developer, and many more things cost $0 for Apple huh?

 

[KENPHOTO]

I don't see how the North Dakota state government thinks it has authority over a company that doesn't even operate a store in their state. The worst that could happen is Apple stops shipping new phones to North Dakota. No offence to ND, but you aren't California. California could get away with their emissions standards laws because the state is so big. IF ND tried that same tactic with emissions, car manufactures would have just stopped selling cars in ND.

 

[jhollington]

Well, maybe, maybe not. Epic tried this on Android, but came crawling back to the Play Store after a year, when they realized people weren’t willing to sideload. And the Play Store doesn’t even manually review apps for safety like Apple does, it’s all automated.

I think if Epic got exactly what they wanted from Apple (and you can read what they were asking for in the rather ludicrous request they sent to Tim Cook et al back in late June of last year), it would be a very different ballgame.

Side loading was something that wasn't really accessible to the average user, and Google certainly didn't go out of its way to make it easy, and I strongly suspect that was the main reason for its poor uptake. People wanted the simplicity fo an actual app store, but not necessarily the Google Play store.

What Epic wants from Apple is the ability to run their own full-fledged app store on iOS devices that would have all of the same ease-of-use and flexibility as the iOS App Store, "including the ability to install and update software as seamlessly as the iOS App Store experience."

From Epic's perspective, of course, it's not an entirely unreasonable request, but they also had to know there was no way that Apple was going to grant it. IMHO it was just so they could say "Hey, we did ask nicely" when they ultimately launched their lawsuit.

 

[Ethosik]

When you say 'Strict privacy controls' you mean the labels on the App Store? The ones that Apple don't even verify?

Also, what is the big deal about people KNOWING what is being tracked? Wow what is happening in this country where it is WRONG to be told I am tracked?

 

[JosephAW]

Sadly some back room deal will be done so the govmnt has a back door and we won’t find out until the next Snowden whistleblower.

 

[Ethosik]

I came in and read this thread and was appalled at the volume of fearmongering I encountered.
What makes iOS and iPadOS so unique that it absolutely has to run in a tightly controlled POS system?
It doesn't for my Win10 PC. Nor my MB. Nor for my Android.

Not seeing the issue.

Would you want to mess with Ransomware or a severely slow phone if you need to call 911? I seriously question the thought process on some people here that don't realize that a phone should have a bit more security than computers do.

This isn't a hyperbolic argument. Working in IT security you need to talk about these risks. What is an important thing an iPhone does that a computer cannot do - the ability to call (ignoring calling from Macs since its still THROUGH the phone here). What is a type of phone call that is absolutely critical - emergency services. How do we combat the risk of a phone not working due to a malicious app when someone needs to call 911 NOW - we will do our BEST (nothing is 100% even laws that should prevent murder) to create a safe store for people to get apps.

And Apple chose the right mitigation of that risk. If you don't like it, there is Android.

 

[Ds6778]

All I’m saying is, Google Play store is such an abomination from both a UI & UX. It still drops frames left and right and the layout of everything feels like flea-market of spam.

 

[PaulRustad007]

What is stopping a state from mandating a back door key for their state police to access an iPhone regardless of your password?

pwrsonally any changes need to be at the federal level. 50 different state 50 different laws regarding a phone that the feds license.

 

[Ethosik]

Well, maybe, maybe not. Epic tried this on Android, but came crawling back to the Play Store after a year, when they realized people weren’t willing to sideload. And the Play Store doesn’t even manually review apps for safety like Apple does, it’s all automated.

(Coincidentally, I’m on Epic’s side in their Apple lawsuit, but not the Google one.)

And they are suing Google because they are making it "too difficult" to sideload.

 

[Isaac Bear]

The North Dakota Senate this week introduced a new bill that would prevent Apple and Google from requiring developers to use their respective app stores and payment methods, paving the way for alternative app store options, reports The Bismarck Tribune.

According to Senator Kyle Davison, who introduced Senate Bill 2333 yesterday, the legislation is designed to "level the playing field" for app developers in North Dakota and shield customers from "devastating, monopolistic fees imposed by big tech companies," which refers to the cut that Apple and Google take from developers.

Specifically, the bill would prevent Apple from requiring a developer to use a digital application distribution platform as the exclusive mode of distributing a digital product, and it would keep the company from requiring developers to use in-app purchases as the exclusive mode of accepting payment from a user. There's also wording preventing Apple from retaliating against developers who choose alternate distribution and payment methods.

Apple Chief Privacy Engineer Erik Neuenschwander spoke out against the bill, saying that it "threatens to destroy the iPhone as you know it" by requiring changes that would "undermine the privacy, security, safety, and performance" of the iPhone.

Neuenschwander said that Apple "works hard" to keep bad apps from the App Store, and North Dakota's bill would "require us to let them in."

Apple does not allow apps to be installed on iOS devices outside of the App Store and there are no alternate app store options that are available. Apple reviews every app that is made available for its customers to download, something that would not happen with a third-party app store option.

Apple also does not let app developers accept payments through methods other than in-app purchase except in select situations, a policy that has led to Apple's legal fight with Epic Games. Epic Games added an alternate payment method to Fortnite last year, leading the app to be banned from the App Store.

Basecamp co-founder David Heinemeier Hansson, who was also embroiled in a legal fight with Apple over email app "HEY" last year, testified in favor of SB 2333 and said that it gives him hope that "tech monopolies aren't going to rule the world forever."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359203441827078145

In 2020, Apple faced a U.S. antitrust inquiry into its App Store fees and policies, which resulted in a 450 page report calling for new antitrust laws focused on promoting fair competition in digital markets, strengthening laws related to mergers and monopolization, and restoring vigorous oversight and enforcement of antitrust law.

No federal legislation has been introduced as of yet, and the North Dakota Senate committee did not take action on the bill. Senator Jerry Klein said that there's "still some mulling to be done" in reference to the bill.

Article Link: Apple Privacy Chief: North Dakota Bill 'Threatens to Destroy the iPhone as You Know It'

Can we just stop all of this? The LAST things I want to do is give every app developer my credit card info just to play a match 3 game or have to download and search through 8 different app stores to find the app I want. Just leave my iPhone experience alone.

 

[jarman92]

How do they think this can be done at the state level?

Interstate commerce remains the realm of the federal Government.

It's North Dakota...

And you're correct, this bill would pretty clearly violate the dormant commerce clause and be quickly invalidated.

 

[WiseAJ]

Wish people would stop trying to turn my iPhone into an insecure Android phone.

 

[gbc204]

Agreed. I love the App Store but I wouldn’t be opposed to having the option of installing apps that aren’t available/allowed in the App Store. If it’s acceptable for macOS it should be the same for iOS, and especially for iPadOS.

I think one of Apple's fears--and rightly so--is that you could start getting a lot of really dark-web kind of apps (and by "could" i mean "definitely"), and then you'll have the FBI, CIA, etc constantly going after Apple to unlock suspects' phones. And public sentiment would probably support that. Which is a whole other thing.

 

[9927036]

Neuenschwander said that Apple "works hard" to keep bad apps from the App Store, and North Dakota's bill would "require us to let them in."

This statement is self serving. Perhaps Mr Neuenschwander should read this article from yesterday. Apple's app review process is smoke and mirrors.

Scam iOS Apps Still Raking in Millions in Revenue on App Store [Updated]

The problem of scam iOS apps has dogged Apple's App Store for some years now, but over last two weeks the developer Kosta Eleftheriou has taken...

www.macrumors.com

 

[gbc204]

It's going to be super fun when residents of North Dakota can't buy iPhones anymore...

Or when the ensuing tech boom drives residents out of their homes and all the tech bros and--*gasp*--workers from FOREIGN COUNTRIES move in.

 

[jarman92]

You and the 16 "enlightened" folk who upvoted this must have never heard of California emissions standards.

Congress delegated their regulatory authority over emissions to the EPA, and explicitly required the agency to grant CA a waiver to develop their own standards. Should probably do some research before making snarky comments.

 

[I7guy]

Neuenschwander said that Apple "works hard" to keep bad apps from the App Store, and North Dakota's bill would "require us to let them in."

This statement is self serving. Perhaps Mr Neuenschwander should read this article from yesterday. Apple's app review process is smoke and mirrors.

Scam iOS Apps Still Raking in Millions in Revenue on App Store [Updated]

The problem of scam iOS apps has dogged Apple's App Store for some years now, but over last two weeks the developer Kosta Eleftheriou has taken...

www.macrumors.com

It's not binary. One (or more) bad apps out of millions doesn't mean apple isn't "working hard".