Apple ProCare

[oingoboingo]

No your wrong.
I was referring to iLife from last yr not iLife 4.

But what do you care. I still will get iLife 4 with the next ver. of OSX 10.4 and for only $69 bucks.

That's fine if you want to wait 18 months or so to get access to the latest version of iLife. That may not be an issue at all for some people. Otherwise, the original observations stand...it's $129 + $49 to keep OS X and iLife up to date (standard pricing). I'm assuming the $69 you're referring to is a student or developer discount?

I would have to agree with other posters here as well on the topic of further iLife revisions being included with OS X updates. I wouldn't count on it. The general trend definitely seems to be towards *unbundling* of services and software...it would not surprise me at all if OS X updates did not include iLife anymore, and the only way to get the latest iLife for free was to buy a new Mac. This is the situation as it stands now anyway. Also remember the .Mac/iTools unbundling.

It's really a moot point anyway with most of Apple's software. It's not copy protected, so people who think it is a fair price will pay, and those that don't will just download it from BitTorrent or LimeWire for free. For the record, I paid the shipping/handling charge to get the Panther upgrade for my G5, and it came with my 12" PowerBook. And I also purchased iLife '04. But plenty of other Mac users I know didn't.

 

[ITR 81]

Are you sure about that? will 10.4 have iLife included? Where's your info? Link? Press release? Hopeful speculation?

"you're" = you are

How about common sense.
How would Apple look if it was missing..iTunes, iDVD, iMovie, iPhoto, and now Garageband.
I doubt Apple will ship it without a newer ver. of iLife.
So far for me iLife has been updated twice with the newest ver of OSX.

How about my gov rep told me it would have iLife 4, but it has yet to be finalized if it will include Garageband. But I doubt the US Army will need PB's with Garageband anyhow.
We tested 10 PB's last yr out in AZ with a gov. ed. of Panther...which had smartcard readers which allows us only access to certain areas within the OS. The next test will be in Alaska with my friends new unit and it will be with the next OS ver of OSX. The PB's are only going to special Intel. field units..just created in last few yrs. We are currently using Panasonic Toughbooks but so far they break just as easy as our PB's..we've tested.

 

[ITR 81]

That's fine if you want to wait 18 months or so to get access to the latest version of iLife. That may not be an issue at all for some people. Otherwise, the original observations stand...it's $129 + $49 to keep OS X and iLife up to date (standard pricing). I'm assuming the $69 you're referring to is a student or developer discount?

I would have to agree with other posters here as well on the topic of further iLife revisions being included with OS X updates. I wouldn't count on it. The general trend definitely seems to be towards *unbundling* of services and software...it would not surprise me at all if OS X updates did not include iLife anymore, and the only way to get the latest iLife for free was to buy a new Mac. This is the situation as it stands now anyway. Also remember the .Mac/iTools unbundling.

It's really a moot point anyway with most of Apple's software. It's not copy protected, so people who think it is a fair price will pay, and those that don't will just download it from BitTorrent or LimeWire for free. For the record, I paid the shipping/handling charge to get the Panther upgrade for my G5, and it came with my 12" PowerBook. And I also purchased iLife '04. But plenty of other Mac users I know didn't.

I can get edu discounts and gov discounts. Sometimes I can get them for free depending on the project.

So if iLife does not come with 10.4 we'll be looking at new OSX without iTunes, iDVD, iMovie or iPhoto...sounds like an almost featureless upgrade.
A featureless upgrade = less money for SJ and I doubt SJ will be having that.

 

[Some_Big_Spoon]

iTunes will always be there, because it generates sales of the iPod.. iDVD does not come with OSX, it comes with superdrive enabled computers, or when you pay for it in iLife '04.

OSX is the operating system, and it's become very clear that Apple wants to seperate the "OS" from the "Applications".. not a very smart move.

10.4 could very well come with all the current iLife apps, even iDVD, but the point is that none of us know, and Apple reps certainly don't know about software that hasn't entered/exited alpha yet.

I'm sure any new OS release will have compelling reasons to upgrade, but none of us really know anymore if any iLife apps, save iTunes, will make it in any longer, and that concerns a lot of us as we've come to think of these as being a given since we pay a bit more than other computer users on average. It's upsetting frankly, and I think it's very much our place to question Apple's motive and direction since both seem to be less than spectacular right now.

I can get edu discounts and gov discounts. Sometimes I can get them for free depending on the project.

So if iLife does not come with 10.4 we'll be looking at new OSX without iTunes, iDVD, iMovie or iPhoto...sounds like an almost featureless upgrade.
A featureless upgrade = less money for SJ and I doubt SJ will be having that.

 

[Fukui]

No Garage Band, No iDVD. iDVD is part of iLife, no iDVD, no iLife. Panther comes with 3 of the 4 older versions of the software package, and those 3 versions are dead in the water.. no more updates.

You sound like you either work at Apple, or you're Steve Jobs love child. The company has been making quite a few mistakes as of late..Shouldn't we question that? Shouldn't that be our right? Perhaps not.

Oooh. Them be fightin words.... Thank you attacking me personally. If you read my posts before or anywhere on this site, you know I'm not some zealot.

Now...does Microsoft Windows come with the latest version of Office pre-installed? No? Oh my gawd! Lets all go on some forum and complain about it!!! Do you see people complain to HP or Dell or Sony when they upgrade to Windows 2000 or Windows XP and thier pre-installed software doesn't work anymore? Hmm....you can always install the old iDVD on Panther cant you? Yes you can.

And, of course you can complain, but its been my experience that some complain about anything they can possibly find.

 

[oingoboingo]

I can get edu discounts and gov discounts. Sometimes I can get them for free depending on the project.

So if iLife does not come with 10.4 we'll be looking at new OSX without iTunes, iDVD, iMovie or iPhoto...sounds like an almost featureless upgrade.
A featureless upgrade = less money for SJ and I doubt SJ will be having that.

Believe me, I'd love for OS X to include all the iLife updates. I was yelling and screaming with the rest of the crowd in January when we found out that iLife '04 would be a US$49 (AU $79) upgrade. After all, we used to get iLife updates through the Software Update function along with all the other OS components. The only reason to buy iLife in a box was if you couldn't download the apps directly because you were on a modem. However, it all changed in January.

Panther included stacks of other stuff apart from iLife...better performance, Expose, XCode, FileVault, Fast User Switching, improved Finder, enhanced Mail, improved iDisk syncing. Without touching iLife, OS X 10.3 is still an exciting upgrade. All I'm saying is that judging from recent events, it would not be in the least bit surprising if there were no more iLife updates in OS X updates. You want the latest version of iPhoto? Buy iLife '04, or iLife '05, or whatever. You get your first copy of iLife free with your Mac, but that's it.

It's about 5 months since Panther was released, and about 2.5 months since iLife '04 was released. Are the iLife '04 apps in the retail Panther box? There's been plenty of time to change the contents of the boxes in retail channels. Apple is *already* not including iLife updates with OS X updates.

I don't agree (believe me, I complained long and loud about it back in January), but it clearly seems to be the way Apple is going. I really wanted improved iPhoto performance (let's not hide from the truth, iPhoto 2 performance straight-out sucked) and GB looked interesting, so in the end I did what Steve wanted, and with gritted teeth handed over my credit card to Apple. If you want to stay nice and legal, you're probably gonna have to do the same thing next year (although with the educational or government discount, it should be pretty cheap. I've gone back to university this year to do a PhD, so I'll be getting edu pricing too 🙂 )

 

[oingoboingo]

Now...does Microsoft Windows come with the latest version of Office pre-installed? No? Oh my gawd! Lets all go on some forum and complain about it!!! Do you see people complain to HP or Dell or Sony when they upgrade to Windows 2000 or Windows XP and thier pre-installed software doesn't work anymore? Hmm....you can always install the old iDVD on Panther cant you? Yes you can.

That's not a fair comparison. Microsoft has never bundled those apps with their operating system. Apple used to, and now they don't. And yes, people *do* complain when their Windows upgrade trashes all their installed apps. They're meant to continue working. If HP, Dell, or Sony are the OEM provider of Windows, then they will be the ones responsible for answering their customer's Windows service calls.

Remember...we *used* to be able to download those iLife apps, and get updates for free. That has now changed. That is what people complain about. Please, I don't want to get into a January-era argument again with anyone over whether iLife '04 is worth it or not (I actually bought it). I just don't see these "But MS doesn't give you Office for free!!!" arguments as actually proving anything. Apple used to provide free updates for iLife, and now they don't. I think a closer analogy would be if Microsoft stopped bundling Internet Explorer or Windows Media Player and started making people pay for upgrades to those.

 

[Fukui]

That's not a fair comparison. Microsoft has never bundled those apps with their operating system. Apple used to, and now they don't. And yes, people *do* complain when their Windows upgrade trashes all their installed apps. They're meant to continue working. If HP, Dell, or Sony are the OEM provider of Windows, then they will be the ones responsible for answering their customer's Windows service calls.

Remember...we *used* to be able to download those iLife apps, and get updates for free. That has now changed. That is what people complain about. Please, I don't want to get into a January-era argument again with anyone over whether iLife '04 is worth it or not (I actually bought it). I just don't see these "But MS doesn't give you Office for free!!!" arguments as actually proving anything. Apple used to provide free updates for iLife, and now they don't. I think a closer analogy would be if Microsoft stopped bundling Internet Explorer or Windows Media Player and started making people pay for upgrades to those.

I agree that changing them from free to paid is bad style.
You'll get no argument from me about that. I personally dont think the whole iLife package is worth it to me (despite how stunning iDVD 4 may be), so I have nothing to complain about. The thing is though, when I think about the work that goes into GB/iDVD/iMovie, and I ask myself should they charge for it, somehow I think they should...at least I would.

I think that offering free versions and then changing to pay is again bad style and bad for publicity, but TBO, I think they should have just had it be a for-pay/pre-installed-only from the begining...

 

[oingoboingo]

I agree that changing them from free to paid is bad style.
You'll get no argument from me about that. I personally dont think the whole iLife package is worth it to me (despite how stunning iDVD 4 may be), so I have nothing to complain about. The thing is though, when I think about the work that goes into GB/iDVD/iMovie, and I ask myself should they charge for it, somehow I think they should...at least I would.

I think that offering free versions and then changing to pay is again bad style and bad for publicity, but TBO, I think they should have just had it be a for-pay/pre-installed-only from the begining...

I'm inclined to agree with you...it leaves a bad taste in your mouth to discover that what appeared to be part of OS X is now suddenly not, and costs $49 extra. But on the other hand, the apps are really good quality, and compared to the competition, $49 is a bargain...but then again they used to be free...but they're great value etc etc.

I see-saw back and forth. As I mentioned before, in the end I got over my disappointment enough to shell out the AU $79 for iLife '04, but I wasn't happy about it. The thing that disturbs me most is the overall trend...we seem to be paying more to get the same stuff. OS X 10.0 to 10.1 was free. Then the upgrades started to cost. iTools used to be free. Then they cost...and yearly. iLife upgrades used to be free. Now they cost. When you take the high upfront hardware cost into account, it doesn't create an overall feeling of goodwill towards Apple Inc. sometimes...and that can translate into lost sales through word of mouth.

 

[John61254]

Procare: Is this another one of those April Fools jokes?

I love Apple hardware and software.
I used to just say "I love Apple".
But this Procare thing really makes me wonder what they are thinking and where they are going.
The Procare site says:
" With ProCare, you’ll get added benefits over and above our standard level of service:"
Then it goes on to describe the kind of stuff that you would mostly expect from (and up till now has been) pretty much "standard service".
If all this stuff (what used to be "standard service") now costs $100, then what the #!*?! does "standard service" get you now?!?!
And what is really so hot about "Pro Service" that you can't (or least couldn't get up till) now?
How come all of a sudden to get decent service, what any customer would expect, costs an extra c-note?! What a bunch of cr*p.
Seems Apple used to say: "Let's make great products and treat our customers better and they'll be willing to pay a little more".
Now the word is: "Let's still make great products and charge a little less; then for those that still want to be treated better, we'll make them pay for it."
What's next?
Somewhere up in Cupertino there's a corporate schmuck thinking up this "money making" stuff, but I wish Apple would just stick to making good software and hardware, and treating all their customers like "Pros". Now what's wrong with that strategy?

 

[aswitcher]

Payback $$$$

If Apple are going to charge a premium for decent service, $99 US, the I would expect them to immediately refund that and let you keep it the first time they fail to meet a turn around time on repairs...

I also think they need to have some sort of refund in the Standard Applecare when service is crap. 2-3 weeks without a machine is pretty significant.

Any down time at minimum should be tacked onto the end of the machines Applecare life.

Any delays of more than a week should see discount vouchers appearing at like $15-50 a week given the lifetime of the machine is about what 3 years (thats all Applecare will extend to so that's Apple's hardware lifetime as far as I am concerned), so if you divide the purchase price of the machine by 153 (for 3 years of 51 weeks).

So 12" PB is worth ~$10 a week, 15" super is $16, 17" is ~$20

G5 1.6 ~$11, 1.8 ~$16, ~$19
+ in each case useless screen or two...~$5-$13

Oh, and as well because these are min config machines, which probably have a few hundred bucks of extra ram, plus software you are upgrading each year etc, then when you take that into account add $5-$10 or even more for professionals for each week!

 

[zelman]

Now...does Microsoft Windows come with the latest version of Office pre-installed? No? Oh my gawd! Lets all go on some forum and complain about it!!!

Does it come with Paint, Wordpad, Character Map, and a ton of other programs that always had been included? Yes. What if they started charging $49 for Regedit.exe and Notepad? Windows would be useless without them.

 

[Uragon]

april fool 😛

Completely agree with you.

 

[merge]

I challenge you to back that statement up.

They state test-drive as a possibility, you come out a denounce it as impossible, calling the entire program "worthless".

They don't state test drive as a "possibility"...
a quote from apple..
"Try all of the latest Apple hardware in our store, before you buy. "
like I said... I have always been able to do that... It is not anything of value.

I run a company, and the ability to know that I can get 24-hour turnaround on repairs, go in and talk to a genius any time without waiting an hour, hands-down is worth $99 on my $6,000 computer purchase

There is a catch here...
Apple says " Get priority, next-day turnaround on in-store repairs. "
I don't know what the difference between in-store, and out of store repairs is, but I would assume that most (not all... but most) hardware issues are not "in-store" repairs..
Also, the only time I have ever had to talk to a genius is when something actually broke... my charger, and my logic board. I needed to go to the apple store that day. What happnens if the geniuses are all booked from other procare users that day?
I assume I still have to wait my turn... even though I paid for the service.

But it's called "Pro" -- it's not intended for ordinary consumers. It's intended for people like me who stand to lose thousands of dollars if there's a day of downtime. This is just another way Apple is pushing into the business/enterprise market.

I like the idea for professionals, I just do not think it will work.. btw, if you could possibly lose thousands of dollars from downtime, I would not be using the apple store for my problems... I would find a local apple authorized repair tech to come on-site.

Look, I love apple... computers....
I just think they need to focus their energy other places than something like this.

 

[merge]

Somewhere up in Cupertino there's a corporate schmuck thinking up this "money making" stuff, but I wish Apple would just stick to making good software and hardware, and treating all their customers like "Pros". Now what's wrong with that strategy?

EXACTLY!
Well said John.

 

[robotrenegade]

WOW apple is falling off the deep end with this one.

 

[iggyb]

If the store is far, then maybe...you dont pay for the 99 pro package?
Maybe you send it in?


Then why is it that Sony (who has no excuse to charge for more) only has a one year limited warranty, no phone support, and you have to pay more for three years (just now an option BTW), yet they sell more than Apple?
Please explain this too me? Why is it that Dell with thier unintelligible phone service in India manages to have such a great reputation?

As for in home service, Ive had enough with smelly sweaty TV repairmen in my house I would rather bring it to an apple store and have it fixed or send it over night.

smelly sweaty TV repairmen? Is that a requirement in your area?

I'm not a fan of Dell. You're right that their phone service sucks eggs (and I can't understand a flippin' thing they're saying). However, their onsite service has treated me well. And although you might prefer to bring your computer to an Apple store (which are not as ubiquitous as they should be for that solution), others would very much like an onsite service, and pay accordingly. Especially businesses!

It seems like ProCare isn't taking away anything, but then again I haven't purchased anything outside of an iPod from an AppleStore.

ProCare SchmroCare....how about some flippin' computer updates!!!

 

[Some_Big_Spoon]

ProCare SchmroCare....how about some flippin' computer updates!!!

That, my friend, is the crux of our dismay & disappointment at this whole ProCare-thingie (and theiLife, .Mac, etc. debachles)

Computers kids.. that's supposed to be Apple's bidnezz, and it's been wanting lately. If we had the puters coming at us regular like, then I think the dissent about new "services" and more money would be small, not the overwhelming majority it appears to be.

 

[Fukui]

smelly sweaty TV repairmen? Is that a requirement in your area?

Yes, unfortunately. I'm telling you, every single person has either smelled horrible, sweated profusely, or left marks on the floor with thier dirty feet or any combination of those. Maybe computer repairs people are different than TV/Appliance repairs people...

I'm not a fan of Dell. You're right that their phone service sucks eggs (and I can't understand a flippin' thing they're saying). However, their onsite service has treated me well. And although you might prefer to bring your computer to an Apple store (which are not as ubiquitous as they should be for that solution), others would very much like an onsite service, and pay accordingly. Especially businesses!

I agree that businesses would also appreciate onsite repair, absolutely.
But not for me personally...I don't know I just have had so many bad experiences with in-person repair people, I just prefer to drop my whatever-is-broken off at the store.

 

[QuiteSure]

I'm not concerned that Apple wants to start generating what amounts to fee income, like most financial institutions have started to do. After all, Apple is probably getting killed on the low return generated by its $4+billion in cash in these days of low interest rates. Gotta do something new to generate revenues. That's OK with me.

But what does concern me is the inconsistent message that ProCare is sending to the public. Apple is well known for ease of use. If that's the case, why should consumers spend $99 to set up user accounts, internet, transfer files, etc. Shouldn't that be simple? Unless that's really not a central part of the appeal to ProCare, I don't like the message that sends. 😕

OTOH, if you want to drop off your computer at the mall, tell the Genius what you want done, buy the new G5 and go do your other shopping, and then find that all your apps and all your emails and all your other preferences etc. are all set up for you when you get back from Rainforest Cafe, that might be a really sweet deal ... 😎

 

[mjtomlin]

Not for you? Really?

on ProCare:
It's obvious Apple is trying to make money in other areas. And there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. They aren't forcing this ProCare down your throat. If it's not for you, then DON'T SPEND YOUR FREAKEN MONEY ON IT!!! With or without the card, you're going to get help when you walk into an Apple store.

When I first saw this article, I thought to myself, "Not for me." and that was that. But I understand who it's for and why...

If you're a person who needs the extra attention, maybe someone new to the Mac who finds themselves in an Apple Store a lot but doesn't really have the time to stand around in line waiting to speak with a "genius." This sort of service would be perfect for them; it allows them to schedule time to come in when it's most convenient for them. Does any other computer company offer a one-on-one customer support service like this!?! For free!?!

It's obviously not going to appeal to the majority of the people out there. For you to post what a waste it is or how dumb this is, just shows you're a self-centered, ignorant schmuck.

on iLife:
Aww, does the poor baby have to start feeding itself now? Whine about having to pay for something you once got for free. You're so pathetic.

Your right to own and use iLife never came with the OS, it comes with owning a Macintosh computer. Period. And that has not changed. You still get iLife for free when buy a new Mac. What has changed are the free upgrades to new "feature-added" versions.

on no new PowerMacs:
WTF does that have to do with this? Find another freaken thread to post on.

 

[merge]

For you to post what a waste it is or how dumb this is, just shows you're a self-centered, ignorant schmuck.

on iLife:
Aww, does the poor baby have to start feeding itself now? Whine about having to pay for something you once got for free. You're so pathetic.

Your right to own and use iLife never came with the OS, it comes with owning a Macintosh computer. Period. And that has not changed. You still get iLife for free when buy a new Mac. What has changed are the free upgrades to new "feature-added" versions.

on no new PowerMacs:
WTF does that have to do with this? Find another freaken thread to post on.

Lets not start with personal attacks now... we are all allowed to have different opinions you "ignorant schmuck"

Here is the thing, most of us on this board are more than typical mac users... we are fans...
If your favorite sports team does something you don't like, you may argue with another fan. It happens.
I am a fan of apple computers, and as a fan, I would like to see them trying to gain marketshare rather than trying to find another small income builder.
I would much rather see apple going after the people who are entry level users who don't want an e-mac and can't afford a Powermac...Or New G5's so we can remain competitive in the GHz war.

We pay a pretty high premium to use Apple, and for that we get a great OS and some great apps...
imho, these apps should be free... that is part of the attraction to buy a mac...

Considering what Apple charges for hardware... the same stuff that is in MUCH cheaper PC's.. We should be getting iLife, and all free updates...

 

[sailnavy]

Apple/Pro Care

Am I the only one that thinks dragging a PowerMac Dual G5 through the mall to get it fixed is a little nuts? I have a fan problem with my dualie, but I haven't had the time to drive the 45miles to my nearest apple service center to get it worked on for a week. I miss sending my powerbook in for service, it was so much easier, and it went to a depot, not a mom and pop apple service center that will have to order the part to install it, or a mall where I get to lug this not so portable machine around. Hard to look cool with the G5 PowerMac "Laptop" at the starbucks...

-Jason

ahh... I feel better now.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

What makes you think fixing your misconfigured software setup is part of Care?

If it does than $99 is ridiculously low priced.

Hey Apple. Yeah I just bought WebObjects 5.2.3 and I can't get it to connect to an Oracle Database that you claim it supports. Is this covered under your Apple Care policy?

Apple: No that is a support instance cost and if you purchase an Enterprise Support contract we'll be happy to help WRITE YOUR BUSINESS LOGIC FOR YOU.

What if I need NetInfo Network Design Fixing? Is that under Apple Care?

What if my IMAP Server settings are not working correctly? Is that under Apple Care?

Apple: Did the OS Install Correctly? Is the hardware and device drivers working correctly?

Yes.

Apple: I suggest you buy a professional support contract for your needs that go beyond Consumer level support.

From looking at the "features" it seems like this just a way to collect MORE money from customers. All these options are already currently available via apple care. The difference is you do this at the store instead of over the phone.

PLUS, I thought if you had applecare all these options were already available. I thought you could bring your mac in with apple care and they'd fix any problem you had. ie. email settings, help copy files, etc..

I dunno, this seems very odd to me. Anyone else?

 

[oingoboingo]

on ProCare:
It's obviously not going to appeal to the majority of the people out there. For you to post what a waste it is or how dumb this is, just shows you're a self-centered, ignorant schmuck.

on iLife:
Aww, does the poor baby have to start feeding itself now? Whine about having to pay for something you once got for free. You're so pathetic.

Your right to own and use iLife never came with the OS, it comes with owning a Macintosh computer. Period. And that has not changed. You still get iLife for free when buy a new Mac. What has changed are the free upgrades to new "feature-added" versions.

on no new PowerMacs:
WTF does that have to do with this? Find another freaken thread to post on.

When I see posts like this, I wonder if the 'Pro' in 'Apple ProCare' is actually short for 'PROctologist'. Some people are obviously just arseholes, and need a bit of extra attention from Apple.