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I have seen those arguments. But there is not a single argument in there that leads to this mountain of an issue. These posts and people’s attitude is “APPLE NEEDS TO BE STOPPED NOW!!!”. Not “it’s nice if this was different” but “OMG TAKE APPLE DOWN NOW NOW NOW”

So again, what is this Uber awesome MUST HAVE app that can only be got via side loading?

So people want the freedom. So what? I want to run Final Cut on my Windows system, or I want to run something I made in visual studio on my PS5. I don’t see people lining up with pitchforks about those two things.

If you desire the freedom, use the platform that supports it. All the arguments lead track to “I didn’t do my research before buying the product”.
Where on Earth do you get that?

Several countries have found several items with companies like Apple/Google and have put forth an initial document while they decide on a final version. Apple and Google knew this was coming. This involves the way the app stores are run and the default apps among other items.

We don't know the final outcome.
We don't know the final designs.

Other than that it is all speculation and opinion.

Relax and take a deep breath or two.
 
You’re going to need to pay for a developer account and sign your App via Apple, otherwise it isn’t going to work. If the governments try to force Apple to allow unsigned apps onto iOS devices, that’s anti-consumer. Besides, I’m guessing Apple has enough pull to keep that from happening. Signed apps will be allowed and unsigned will not. I’m certainly not going to download an unsigned app and most other people aren’t either. Therefore, Apple is still going to get its cut of sales from alternative apps stores.

No. I only pay if I plan to post on the specified app store.
Signed or Unsigned is still tbd (personally I am for signed).

Even still, if I pay the $99 (I do this now), if I develop and app and market and sell it 3rd party only why would I pay Apple anything more?
 
Where on Earth do you get that?

Several countries have found several items with companies like Apple/Google and have put forth an initial document while they decide on a final version. Apple and Google knew this was coming. This involves the way the app stores are run and the default apps among other items.

We don't know the final outcome.
We don't know the final designs.

Other than that it is all speculation and opinion.

Relax and take a deep breath or two.
Where did I get what?
 
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No. I only pay if I plan to post on the specified app store.
Signed or Unsigned is still tbd (personally I am for signed).

Even still, if I pay the $99 (I do this now), if I develop and app and market and sell it 3rd party only why would I pay Apple anything more?
That’s a different topic. If I use Unreal Engine and post it on Steam aka not “Epic’s store”, they get a percentage. I fully expect the same with Apple if this happens. Unless they say Epic can’t do it too.
 
Yes. For the same reason you might have to mow the lawn but your sibling doesn’t.

Apple should have every right to say you and everyone you work with has to pay 70% and everyone else pays 10%. You don’t get a say in how much it costs to use other peoples things. In this case you want to develop for their device and sell to their customers.

Count your blessings you are allowed to develop at all.

Sorry but you lost me in the first sentence. It just got foggier from there.

So you are saying because I want to build an app, Apple has the right to demand whatever percent they want of my sales and I'm blessed to be doing that.

ROTFLMAO!! ?????
 
That’s a different topic. If I use Unreal Engine and post it on Steam aka not “Epic’s store”, they get a percentage. I fully expect the same with Apple if this happens. Unless they say Epic can’t do it too.

Now you are changing the scenario of my post.
I was asking about 3rd party sell points only. No App Store involved.
 
That first paragraph.
How about this legislation? People’s attitude on these forums? Instead of having the market decide, government is getting involved. Sounds like making a mountain of this “issue” to me.
 
Now you are changing the scenario of my post.
I was asking about 3rd party sell points only. No App Store involved.
No I’m not. You are saying why you should pay Apple fees for hosting apps on other stores. I said it’s pretty standard if you use UE to deal with these fees on outside stores.
 
In this case you want to develop for their device and sell to their customers.
No. I want to develop for my customers and make it compatible with their iOS device.
It stopped being Apple's device the minute Apple accepted their money and sold it to them.

This. Right here. The attitude that you can own a customer's device after selling it to them, is precisely what this whole thing is about. Apple and their iFanboys need to get off of this idea that you can sell a physical product to someone and still retain ownership of that product.
 
No. I want to develop for my customers and make it compatible with their iOS device.
It stopped being Apple's device the minute Apple accepted their money and sold it to them.

This. Right here. The attitude that you can own a customer's device after selling it to them, is precisely what this whole thing is about. Apple and their iFanboys need to get off of this idea that you can sell a physical product to someone and still retain ownership of that product.
You own the device, but not the software. Should we force Microsoft to make it easier to “hack” and “skin” and “modify” Windows? Or should we let those individuals figure it out themselves?
 
That’s a different topic. If I use Unreal Engine and post it on Steam aka not “Epic’s store”, they get a percentage. I fully expect the same with Apple if this happens. Unless they say Epic can’t do it too.
The Unreal Engine is a software library, not merely an OS API. Those two things are fundamentally different. Only one of those things is protected by copyright.
 
Can you expand on why?

My view:
I download dev tools.
I write and test the software.
I distribute the software via 3rd party.

Where is the piece in this that justifies Apple charging anything?

When you buy Ford or a Chevy, do the companies give you access to their in-house CAD software to design spare parts for their cars? No, they have tools that they invest millions in, thats made for their own use. You can download those tools right now, and write an app, and put it on your phone this afternoon. If you also wish to make money using THEIR tools, it makes sense to pay them a royalty for that - and also for being the App Store. Neither Facebook nor Google allow you to advertise for free - why should apple? Because they are going to get a cut - but only if you have a buyer
 
The Unreal Engine is a software library, not merely an OS API. Those two things are fundamentally different. Only one of those things is protected by copyright.
What do you think Apple provides in Xcode? They have dozens of “kits” to help your development.
 
..having the market decide
Even Adam Smith (you know, the free market dude) acknowledged that the "invisible hand of the market" only works when there is meaningful competition. When a market tends toward monopoly (which the smartphone market certainly has), it is no longer efficient and must be controlled in some other way.

"Let the market decide" in a monopolistic context is something that is spoken by only those holding the monopoly power and people who don't know any better.
 
No. I want to develop for my customers and make it compatible with their iOS device.
It stopped being Apple's device the minute Apple accepted their money and sold it to them.

This. Right here. The attitude that you can own a customer's device after selling it to them, is precisely what this whole thing is about. Apple and their iFanboys need to get off of this idea that you can sell a physical product to someone and still retain ownership of that product.
Oh. Well then the same can be said for the software I purchased. I own it and I can do with it as I wish the moment I pay for it.

Oh.... no developers want the right to own things they buy but they want to license their products and retain control.

Either you own what you buy or you don't.

Pick one.
 
When you buy Ford or a Chevy, do the companies give you access to their in-house CAD software to design spare parts for their cars? No, they have tools that they invest millions in, thats made for their own use.
CAD Software? No. Schematics so that third party OEMs can produce parts for their cars? Absolutely they do.

If you also wish to make money using THEIR tools, it makes sense to pay them a royalty for that
I agree - if those tools are more than an API to existing functionality in the OS. Again, the difference is between what is an API and what is a software library (hint - the answer depends on who distributes it - Apple, or the developer).
and also for being the App Store. Neither Facebook nor Google allow you to advertise for free - why should apple? Because they are going to get a cut - but only if you have a buyer
Nobody is asking Apple, Google, or Facebook to advertise for them. They are asking not to make it mandatory to have Facebook, Google, or Apple advertise for them for the sole purpose of providing an application.
 
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Even Adam Smith (you know, the free market dude) acknowledged that the "invisible hand of the market" only works when there is meaningful competition. When a market tends toward monopoly (which the smartphone market certainly has), it is no longer efficient and must be controlled in some other way.

"Let the market decide" in a monopolistic context is something that is spoken by only those holding the monopoly power and people who don't know any better.
Let's just keep redefining the market until a monopoly power exists.
 
Oh. Well then the same can be said for the software I purchased. I own it and I can do with it as I wish the moment I pay for it.
I'm really not sure if you quite understand the difference between hardware (which is sold or rented) and software (which is licensed), but either way, you are clearly either lacking the requisite subject matter expertise to participate in this conversation, or you are just pretending to be ignorant.

Either way... yikes.
 
Ok. What about my PS5 example then? Is it not the exact same thing here? I can’t fire up visual studio, write something, deploy it to my site, and direct PS5 players to download it.
That's not an unfair point of course, though rather than discuss the merits of the console issue you simply seek to use it as a 'whataboutism.' But rather than simply using it as a whataboutism, let's discuss the console issue. I wouldn't necessarily be against hitting the big gaming companies with some of these kinds of regulations as well. Why can Sony require their authorization and a financial cut to make a game for their system? Some would say it's because they sell the console at a loss, at least initially and make profit through game sales. Is that enough justification for their business model? Maybe not. Maybe they need to cut their fees and price the hardware higher. I'll point out that a huge difference between Apple and Sony here is that Apple makes a mountain of profit from their hardware sales. The App Store isn't subsidizing the hardware in any way.

Some would say it's because there is no monopoly or duopoly power in gaming. Consider the various players in the gaming market: Sony (Playstation), Microsoft (Windows/Xbox), Nintendo (Switch), Apple (macOS/iOS/iPadOS/tvOS), Google (Android), Meta (Oculus). I'm not the gamer I used to be so there may be more. But where is the concentrated market power here? There's isn't any. Unlike smartphones with iOS and Android, there are a multitude of popular options in gaming platforms.

An additional but related point is that there is frequent cross-shopping in the gaming market that doesn't exist with smartphones. Few people simultaneously use both an iPhone and and Android. People may switch from time to time, but most people use one at a time and as such must choose one or the other. Conversely, many gamers already participate in the market by buying products from multiple competitors. I don't even game much, but yet I have the hardware to play games on macOS, iOS, tvOS, Playstation, Windows, and Switch. The 'choose one or the other' situation of smartphones doesn't generally exist in gaming.

Like I said, you may disagree that those reasons should allow Sony to keep people from developing for their hardware without their blessing and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that stance myself, but we don't need to pretend like it's an apples to apples comparison between smartphones and consoles when that's clearly not the case.

And anti-competitive is just over the top reaction to this. If you are a developer that wants to make an app that’s available as a side load, you have Android as an option. The whole idea of every product needs to have all the same features and capabilities is ridiculous. They are essentially stating that products can’t compete by having different features or systems.
You're exaggerating. Nobody is trying to make every product have all the same features and capabilities. They are however trying to ensure fair play and a modicum of interoperability. Forcing iOS to implement sideloading doesn't magically transform it into Android.

Apple believes a walled garden is a differentiator between iOS and Android. So this is basically saying “you can’t compete here”. iPhone sales will decrease if this happens. I hate iOS compared to Android. But I only use it as it’s a closed system.
Unfortunately for Apple, their "differentiator" is increasingly being seen as being anti-competitive to the broader smartphone-related products and services market.
 
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No. I want to develop for my customers and make it compatible with their iOS device.
It stopped being Apple's device the minute Apple accepted their money and sold it to them.

This. Right here. The attitude that you can own a customer's device after selling it to them, is precisely what this whole thing is about. Apple and their iFanboys need to get off of this idea that you can sell a physical product to someone and still retain ownership of that product.
This is your severe misunderstanding.
 
I'm really not sure if you quite understand the difference between hardware (which is sold or rented) and software (which is licensed), but either way, you are clearly either lacking the requisite subject matter expertise to participate in this conversation, or you are just pretending to be ignorant.

Either way... yikes.
Says the person who thinks iOS stopped belonging to Apple the minute they sold an iPhone. Yikes.
 
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I am generally in favor of Apple allowing side-loading because there is nothing wrong with it existing. But the arguments being made in this thread in favor of it are just terrible.
 
I'm really not sure if you quite understand the difference between hardware (which is sold or rented) and software (which is licensed), but either way, you are clearly either lacking the requisite subject matter expertise to participate in this conversation, or you are just pretending to be ignorant.

Either way... yikes.
I understand that it is arbitrary. The only reason software is licensed is because it is advantageous to developers. There is nothing stopping developers from selling software, they just choose not to because they don't want to give up control.

It's hard for me to support someone that only wants to play by rules that don't apply to them.
 
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