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Apple Pulls Vibe Coding App 'Anything' From App Store, Escalating Enforcement [Updated]
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Sounds a bit like a good portion of Apple’s software department! 🫣
In seriousness, I totally understand what you mean. The crazy part is I’m seeing more and more “vibecoder wanted” job
Listings. They don’t want to pay the money to hire a real professional so they cheap out with a half baked “viber”. You get what you pay for
The way the scam works on r/macapps is like the street gambling scams. They lure people in using gangs. Here is how it works:
1. A room full of 20 people and some bots.
2. They vibe code some trash app which is a clone of a clone of an old idea. They claim it is a new solution. They somehow get it published on the App Store.
3. One of the guys posts about the app on r/macapps.
4. The other 19 guys and their bots upvote the post and reply that they all want a free code and that the app is the best app idea ever.
5. This can sometimes lure someone into purchasing the app who will be asking for support down the road.
6. No support is given. Instead the gang tell the customer to download another app outside the App Store.
7. That app is the trap. It’s malware and a scam designed to make the customer give credit card details.
They also do this on the Play Store sub reddits for maximum coverage.
123jmail
macrumors member
Thank you so much for explaining in layman's terms what the issue is here!
I agree. I don't want an app on my phone that can change its code after it's been installed. Even if the app developer is honest, if a bad actor gains access to this app, bad things can happen. Huge security issue.
People conflate the term vibe coding. Doesn’t sound like it happened here. But as a senior with 20 years of experience I use AI a lot to take care of the boiler-plate logic. It can increase my productivity by 10x and allow me to focus on the guts of my applications.
The analogy is a bit loose because there are thousands and thousands of jurisdictions to choose from in terms of building codes, and if you really want to build something reasonable there's a good chance you really do have the option to just move.
In software your choice is Google or Android if you want to be on mobile and therefore relevant.
Also not all software is like a house. Apple is acting here more like an HOA than a home builder. They don't actually build the houses or own the actual land, but they sure do like to get very specific about what they will and won't allow and if you don't like it tough nuts you signed a contract. And your only other option is an equally restrictive HOA with slightly different peeves.
However, the app developer did.
Apple can't legally stop you from running apps not from the App Store on your device.
So not really a problem then. You have a machine where you can do what you want. You should be happy.
I find it extremely good. It makes for better security to have more control over the code which runs on devices you make. It's an additional layer of security, not 100% secure but makes it harder to run code Apple and I don't want in the ecosystem.
Which is great when you have devices and software used by people who don't know what they're doing.
It's the reason why there is so much less security problems on iOS compared to Windows, macOS and Android. Android without Google is particularly bad.
Yes I do. I want at least one system which is tightly controlled.
Running code is a security threat. It's a necessary evil but it should be tightly controlled, both the tools and the people themselves. Very few people should write code for iOS. Therefore an app which Apple has little control over, makes it easy to write code to run on your device shouldn't exist.
Those people who want to code for themselves can use Apple's programming environment* for iOS or buy Android.
Two good alternatives.
*Or use another frontend which uses Apple's programming environment in the background.
CarlJ
Contributor
Good thing that model doesn't exist for smart phones (or houses). There are other choices. What have you done to adopt one of those, or promote their use to other people? (Try searching "smartphones that are not apple or android" - they do exist.)
Apple has created the iPhone ecosystem (part of the larger Apple ecosystem) as a highly opinionated and curated environment (the "walled garden" that is often mentioned). They make no secret of this, the rules and policies are all there to read. People who buy iPhones are buying into this ecosystem (some of them do this naively, with little understanding of what they're actually buying - that's on them).
I'm a software developer. Unless you are writing software for yourself, or contracting with someone to write bespoke software for you, essentially all software is licensed, not sold. You buy a license that allows you to use it in specific ways (for instance, with most software, you can't give away copies of it to other people), and you are required to abide by those conditions in order to continue using the software.
Smartphones are a lump of metal, plastic, glass, silicon, and lithium, that are transformed into a useful device by the software that runs on them - without that software, it's an inert rectangular box. In the case of the iPhone, that software is iOS, along with the App Store and other supporting software. When you buy an iPhone, you're buying the hardware, and you're licensing the software. You are free to do whatever you want with the hardware. You can use it, sell it, hammer nails in with it, use it as a doorstop if you want.
But in order to use any of your new iPhone's intended functionality, you first have to agree to a series of license agreements for the software. Apple is free to impose whatever rules they want in the license agreement, and you are free to disagree with those license agreements - in which case you should take the iPhone back to the store for a refund - but you literally cannot use it as a smartphone without agreeing to the included license agreements (you simply cannot get past the startup screens).
If you don't like the iPhone ecosystem, you should absolutely not buy one. What I object to, is people buying an iPhone, accepting all the license agreements in order to use it, and then saying "okay, but now I want to use it in some way not supported by the license agreement and I should be able to because it's my phone - I bought it." No, you don't get to unilaterally renegotiate contracts after the fact, even if you really want to.
So, if you don't like the iPhone ecosystem, buy something else. If you don't like Android either, buy one of the other smartphones. If your argument is "but the software isn't as good on those third-party smartphones", that's on you. If you and the others who didn't like the iPhone and Android ecosystems would put your money where your mouth is and support those third-party smartphones, they would improve. What you're arguing at that point isn't a moral/ethical stand, it's laziness - using one of those isn't convenient for you - you want all the benefits of the iPhone hardware and OS, but you don't want to abide by the included license agreements. Go get a group together and support whichever of the third-party smartphones appeals to you the most and help build them into the smartphone of your dreams, don't try to unilaterally renegotiate license agreements after the fact just because that would be more convenient to you.
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CarlJ
Contributor
It's basically automating the practice of those developers who blindly copy and paste large blocks of code from stackoverflow or similar without having any clue what it does (the LLMs digested most of that same example code years ago). In either case - licensing/plagiarism issues aside - if you don't fully understand how all the code you're putting into a program works, you're a bad developer. And related to this, LLMs are not actually thinking, they're just super elaborate auto-complete - they make up something that looks plausible - that's their goal. It's entirely possible for you to spend more time ferreting out a subtle bug (or worse, not noticing it and shipping it) in LLM generated code than it would take to write the code from scratch.
I think you and your company took the correct approach. Looking at something like stackoverflow can be helpful for "Oh! Now I see how that could work", but you have to fully understand how the code works, don't just copy and paste.
CarlJ
Contributor
Because CEOs / boards of directors abso-freaking-lutely love profits, and are eager to jump onto something that promises them more profits by paying fewer salaries, even if the resulting software is often garbage - near-term, someone gets a huge bonus for saving the company a lot of money, long-term, the quality of their software goes downhill.
chrono1081
macrumors G3
You're exactly right. LLMs are the new "stack overflow developer". Which is funny because a ton of code on stack is just awful yet LLMs train off of it.
Anecdotal but there was one time we had ****** video recording in an app at work so I checked the video player code and it was ripped straight from stack, mistakes, code comments telling the poster what to do, and all...and it was all wrong.
I replaced it with 1/10th of the code doing it the proper way (because I read documentation) and lo-behold, no more issues!
Fair points. But at a certain point things pass from a choice to a daily necessity and that’s when they get regulated. Power, telephone service, mail, etc.
When services you have to use to participate in daily life exist on Android or iPhone and those are your only choices, this isn’t about free market economics anymore.
And this is part of why this topic is controversial. Not everyone has the skill, time, or inclination to learn to code or build an entire mobile platform so they can use software they made for their own use.
Yes, all software is licensed or contracted. Just like all power comes from the power company, all water comes from the water company, unless you generate your own. And some local governments make that illegal for economic and “safety” reasons.
This is my whole point. Apple is actively working against the democratization of software that you are seemingly advocating for. If AI can be used for people to create their own software so it doesn’t have to be contracted or licensed, that’s a good thing for users.
The only argument I’m hearing against it is either “protecting users from themselves” or protecting Apple’s profits because they created a giant mall they take a giant cut of.
There was even an article recently quoting Joz saying they’ve always been ahead in AI because all the AI apps run on the iPhone. OK yes they do but he knows perfectly well he’s dodging the actual point.
Which is what I feel like is happening in this thread in general.
123jmail
macrumors member
Well, actually, your stated examples (like power and water) are all regulated **not** because they became daily necessities but rather because the user does not have alternatives available. Check with your local public service commissioner to find out all the reasons why these services are regulated but ultimately, they're regulated because they are legal monopolies. It has absolutely **nothing** to do with the services becoming daily necessities.
So, since your basis is faulty, you might consider a different approach with your opinion.
Yes they are natural monopolies. Or at least duopolies.
Which is an awful lot like the mobile software market.
You may recall in that there used to be more mobile platforms but if everything is going to be an app controlled by the platform vendor and not something neutral like a website, that isn’t any more practical than having three different water pipes running to a building from three different providers.
And yes they are regulated partially because they are necessary. Utilities. Like telephone.
Multiple times in US history a private company has done so well it had to become regulated for the public good. Railroads, telephone lines, etc.
CarlJ
Contributor
What services do you have to use to participate in daily life that exist only on Android or iOS and are not available via the web? I can't think of any, offhand. And if there are any, they should probably be pushed hard to provide those as websites.
I mean technically you can accomplish most essential services by postal mail or fax. How about things like depositing checks, getting a ride, paying for parking.
Oh, here's a good one coming soon to an internet near you... VERIFYING YOUR AGE!
I'm shocked (not that shocked) so many people are advocating for more restriction in software freedom.
Maybe technically I don't have to have a smartphone to participate in society.
But as many people point out, try being asked by the TSA for your phone and explaining that you don't have one. They won't belive you. No one will. Because everyone understands that practically it is a requirement for modern life.
“Here’s a list of things I know you generally CAN do to a house, but I’m not going to include the things that would go against my point like not being able to make exterior changes that violate HOA covenants, violate municipal building codes, or violate historical preservation rules”
When you buy a home, there are terms of the agreement, just like when you buy a phone. Don’t like the terms? Don’t accept them. That may mean you’re without a home/phone, but that’s due to a decision you’ve made. 👍
Sometimes, the simplest way to do it, is “not on Apple devices”. Fortunately there are literally billions of devices out there that aren’t Apple devices!
Maybe furniture and stuff inside yes (the analogy being: changing icons colors and grouping and the skin of things in your Home Screen).
But for anything remotely substantial you will have to go through tons of paperwork, approvals, and the like even for minor things like a fence around your yard: at the least the HOA will peek with their noses to make sure that it complies with height, visible through enough, color, etc.
Anything else like changing anything at your home: garage upgrades, installing a pool, a new kitchen zone, a bbq + gazebo zone in the backyard, etc will require inspection and approvals.
And of course, the ultimate non-ownership will always be: don’t pay property taxes and discover who really owns that land and home. For context, with just 1% property taxes, we are paying 25% of the property (again) every 25 years (in practice even a lot more if anchored at the starting price, because 25 years ago it was 1% of a considerably lower home price. Every year it increases).