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Apple Pursuing Fuel Cell Tech for PowerBooks?

Re: water as cooling?

Originally posted by evolu
The water by-product could be separated again using the heat produced by the processor.

No fans - just a self contained symbiotic cycle of energy exchange. Of course some energy would be lost in the process - but that could be provided by a small rechargable battery that could last for weeks...
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I think you're thinking of:
water + heat = steam (steam still being H20 molecules - just more spread out)

Fuel Cells work on:
H2 + 0 = H20 + spare electron

the reverse process 'water cracking' requires the electron back - to do this you send a high electrical current (electrons) back through the water and when an electron hits a water molecule it smashes it back apart. (Ofcourse alot of the electrons miss and reach the other side without hitting a single water molecule, which is why you always end up needing to put more energy in than you get out.)
 
Re: Waste is water?!

Originally posted by weave
Ah, so, if the waste of a fuel cell is water, what does that mean for a laptop? That it'd leak all over my lap as I use it? Or would I have to attach a bag to it and take my laptop out once in a while so it could take a leak?
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...or water vapor. In which case there would just need to be an exhaust port like, a fan grill, somewhere. Probably integrated with the cooling air flow of the notebook. Just slightly more humid.
 
I skimmed through the thread and there seems to be so many misconceptions and misunderstandings. I will try to set straight some and if I end up confusing you more, post below and I will try to respond.

Firstly, water is useless as "fuel" for a fuel cell. The energy obtained by making water will be less than the energy needed to split water. This is just the 2nd law at work. Things can never be ³ 100% efficient.

Secondly, even other alcohols suggested are not good fuel cell candidates because they are liquids. The energy density (energy/mass) is low and you have various handling and combustability problems. They are great for cars but for electronics, a solid fuel is a better candidate.

One of the most promising candidates is NaBH_4. http://www.ectechnic.co.uk/NaBH4.htm is one place to look up more info. However, it does not work unless it is dissolved in water or an alkali. Optimally, all liquid processing should be avoided and that is where research is headed.

The best fuel cell would be a zeolite. It will stay as solid and then when it is exhausted, it can be recharged by putting it in a stream of hydrogen. That is still fairly far away.

ETA http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/17apr_zeolite.htm pretty much says what I say in this post but more clearly and with pretty pictures.
 
Re: Re: water as cooling?

Originally posted by Jotham
I think you're thinking of:
water + heat = steam (steam still being H20 molecules - just more spread out)

Fuel Cells work on:
H2 + 0 = H20 + spare electron

the reverse process 'water cracking' requires the electron back - to do this you send a high electrical current (electrons) back through the water and when an electron hits a water molecule it smashes it back apart. (Ofcourse alot of the electrons miss and reach the other side without hitting a single water molecule, which is why you always end up needing to put more energy in than you get out.)
Click to expand...

There is some talk in rarified-air circles about resonent electrical currents decomposing water. The energy requirement is suppose to be much lower but I don't know too many specifics. For more details, look up Tesla's work with resonance.
 
Wow! Massive heat AND water vapor!
The new powerbooks could double as a travel iron!
 
Standard outlets as a source for energy?

There has been a lot of discussion about the problems with water electrolyse so far and where do you get the energy to do it and etc. Here is a suggestion. Why couldn't you simply plug your laptop into a conventional power source to provide the energy needed? It would be just like recharging your batter in the conventional manner except that your batter lasts a lot longer and you have to recharge less frequently. Just a thought, what do you think?
 
Reforming Basics

Man, some people must have really skipped Chemistry!

There is nearly no Hydrogen in the atmosphere, mainly because its so reactive, nearly all of it has reacted with oxygen to form H20, as in water. Thats why we have so large oceans. Also, water would be the waste product and that could be split into Hydrogen and Water again.
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Actually, the reason there's so little hydrogen in the atmosphere is because it escapes into space.

My question is, because of this, where would the by product go? There has to be some form of waste
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The waste products would be water and either CO or CO2. Since there's no large natural sources of H2, it has to be produced artificially. If methanol is used as a fuel source (as the article suggests) the H2 would be produced within the laptop:

CH3OH + H2O + heat (from the processor?) -> 3H2 + CO2 (and a little CO)

The emmisions might pose a problem, and methanol is combustable, so I agree with hariya that the best fuel source would probably be some form of H2 trapped in a solid state. However, you'd have to figure out how to recharge it.

The H2 would also still have to created somehow. A refinery would steam reform methane:

CH4 + 1/2 O2 + heat (steam) -> 2H2 + CO (even worse than CO2)

So no matter what, the fuel cell (and hydrogen economy for that matter) can't be emissions-free until we find an efficient way to electolyze water (not to mention you'd have to use an emissions-free source of electricity).

1 week cell/battery life would still kick ass though. :) I'm sure someone smarter than any of us will figure it out soon.
 
This fuel cell stuff could also be tied into cooling. I'm not really technical with this stuff but if the biproduct of the fuel cells is water could this water also be used to cool the laptop?
 
water

I am not sure that the water generated by fuel cell can be used for cooling, but it will be recycled as fuel.
CH3OH+H2O--->6H++6e
 
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
This fuel cell stuff could also be tied into cooling. I'm not really technical with this stuff but if the biproduct of the fuel cells is water could this water also be used to cool the laptop?
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I agree - air is now used for cooling - but water could be more effective. If it's already a bi-product, it makes sense.
 
waste is water... [/QUOTE]

I guess that would be good for 3rd-party companies. I'd imagine the first would be Br. Bott coming out with a PowerBookDiaper.
 
i dont know why apple is worrying about getting fuel cells into laptops. they have just released a new chip they should be putting all their resources into R&D, mainly making the chip run efficiently enough to put it into the powerbook in the quickest possible time frame. they already have some of the best battery lifes on the markets for their top of the line laptops. look at a fully featured dells and they'll get at most 2 and a half hours and the G4 powerbooks can get anywhere from 4 and a half to 5 hours depending on the model. they have yet to even get the G5 running cool enough to put it into the powerbook (according to what we have all been told). i think they need to straighten out their priorities.

1. get the G5 running at extremely low watts per hour 25-40 and then...

2. go for the big one...10 hour+ battery life...

i agree with an older post that this should be more along the lines of 2nd page story...not that its not important...but just that the technology is so far off it's not having a huge impact on the market currently
 
Originally posted by elfin buddy
BTW, I noticed that some people here think that we drink ethanol....well I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to stay out of the hospital and keep my eyesight....
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Ethanol, aka Ethyl Alcohol is the alcohol in beer or liquor. It's "safe" to drink if it comes in that form. You wouldn't want to drink a bottle of rubbing alcohol though.
 
Okay so what about this: you have a battery with hydrogen in it. It takes oxygen from the air and your left with water. When all of the hydrogen is used up you need to recharge your battery by plugging it into the wall and by using electrolysis separate the hydrogen and oxygen and then release the oxygen into the air to conserve space, unplug that baby and you're good to go. If i remember correctly you can hydrolyze water pretty fast too. This way you don't have to go and buy hydrogen everytime your laptop runs out of juice. Just an idea.
Steve
 
Re: Standard outlets as a source for energy?

Originally posted by mackman
There has been a lot of discussion about the problems with water electrolyse so far and where do you get the energy to do it and etc. Here is a suggestion. Why couldn't you simply plug your laptop into a conventional power source to provide the energy needed? It would be just like recharging your batter in the conventional manner except that your batter lasts a lot longer and you have to recharge less frequently. Just a thought, what do you think?
Click to expand...
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The idea of fuel cells isn't to be 100% efficient it's just to provide longer battery life. The problem is playing around with compressed hydrogen is pretty much not going to happen.

Originally posted by LostPacket
Actually, the reason there's so little hydrogen in the atmosphere is because it escapes into space.
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Actually it's just because it's reactive as al hell. Hydrogen reacts with just about anything. It'd never make it through the atmosphere to reach space it would have reacted with oxygen along the way.

Originally posted by LostPacket
CH4 + 1/2 O2 + heat (steam) -> 2H2 + CO (even worse than CO2)
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You'll find they do the reactions using excess steam and excess air to minimise CO production. Also you can play around with coal, which can have a significant amount of stored hydrogen, and in fact improve the energy utilisation of the coal.
 
Originally posted by cgc
Hydrogen is an inert gas and poses no threat to global warming.
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Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions. If you ever throw a large chunk of sodium (not sodium chloride) into water and waited, you'll know what I mean.
 
Originally posted by topicolo
Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions. If you ever throw a large chunk of sodium (not sodium chloride) into water and waited, you'll know what I mean.
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My chem teacher has a great video about large chunks of sodium and water. Its great entertainment!!
BOOM BOOM BOOM!!!
 
Originally posted by cgc
Hydrogen is an inert gas and poses no threat to global warming. Actually, like helium, hydrogen escape the Earth's gravitational pull and is lost to space. BTW, I'm taking Environmental Engineering classes in college (and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night).
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Last time i checked, hydrogen had one valance electron.

also, when hydrogen is hit by cosmic rays we get mesons, and they only last for a few ms... so here is an other reason there is so little hydrogen in out atmosphere
 
Hot water

By products are heat and water. Can't use that to cool the cpu.

Can, however, use the evaporating liquid hydrogen to possibly cool the cpu. Evaporation results in cooling.
 
Re: Re: Since those fuel cells are powered with ethanol....

Originally posted by andyduncan
"Whats that you've got powering your 22 inch PowerBook?"


Seriously though. Fuel cells are great until you run out of fuel.
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I absolutely agree with this. I've had a few years of chemistry and I fully understand how a fuel cell works. What would happen when the methanol ran out? You'd run to the gas station to fill up your laptop?

They'd have to find something that gives off more than one hydrogen or that can be recombined with the water given off in order to be "reuseable."

It's a nice dream, but a far-off one.
 
Originally posted by CJYetman
Wow! Massive heat AND water vapor!
The new powerbooks could double as a travel iron!
Click to expand...


LOL!!!!!!!!
thats hysterical.
On a practical note, it will save college students headed off to college some $$....no need for an iron AND a computer.
(definitely a sign convergence of tech has gone too far.)

--carly
 
Sorry in advance if this is getting too off-topic.

Actually it's [the reason why there's little H2 in the atmosphere] just because it's reactive as al hell. Hydrogen reacts with just about anything. It'd never make it through the atmosphere to reach space it would have reacted with oxygen along the way.
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While the elemental form of hydrogen is quite reactive, the molecular form (H2) is not. H2 is very stable and reacts with few compounds in the atmosphere. The fact that it's flammable has little to do with its reactivity in general.

Although its reaction with oxygen is spontaneous, it's very slow due to the high activation energy. This is why a catalyst is required within the fuel cell; to pull apart the stable H2 molecule into its individual (and reactive) atoms.

Thus, most of the hydrogen will escape into space long before it has a chance to react with anything in the atmosphere.
 
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