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Apple Pursuing Fuel Cell Tech for PowerBooks?
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Disposable batteries
Most of the articles linked from this discussion talk about the first generation of useable credit card sized fuel cells would be in the form of disposable power, much like a phone card.
Just another way to generate revenue and increase waste IMO.
I'm more interested in the Lithium polymer technology mentioned in The Age article. Though this battery won't out-perform a fuel cell, it's mains rechargeable and the size of a credit card. This would make for lighter laptops.
Also wait for LED technology to hit displays, low-K dielectrics in 90 micron fabbed cpu's and we'll be looking at some real power-savings.
If fuel cells could be combined to be complementary with lithium polymer batteries, ie both batteries could be used with the same enclosure, there would be a good market for a cheap back-up battery for long trips.
Also, what happened to the wind-up pc experiment? Maybe that's another thread...
Most of the articles linked from this discussion talk about the first generation of useable credit card sized fuel cells would be in the form of disposable power, much like a phone card.
Just another way to generate revenue and increase waste IMO.
I'm more interested in the Lithium polymer technology mentioned in The Age article. Though this battery won't out-perform a fuel cell, it's mains rechargeable and the size of a credit card. This would make for lighter laptops.
Also wait for LED technology to hit displays, low-K dielectrics in 90 micron fabbed cpu's and we'll be looking at some real power-savings.
If fuel cells could be combined to be complementary with lithium polymer batteries, ie both batteries could be used with the same enclosure, there would be a good market for a cheap back-up battery for long trips.
Also, what happened to the wind-up pc experiment? Maybe that's another thread...
Hydrogen
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."
The Hindenburg Combustion was caused by the paint coat used on the skin.
Go here for more: http://www.vidicom-tv.com/tohiburg.htm
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."
The Hindenburg Combustion was caused by the paint coat used on the skin.
Go here for more: http://www.vidicom-tv.com/tohiburg.htm
Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, but yes, you don't want to drink it!
As far as the ozone is concerned, hydrogen may indeed prove to a problem. Caltech scientists reported in Science in the last week or so that leakage of hydrogen from large-scale hydrogen distribution systems (pipelines, filling stations, etc.) could allow hydrogen into the atmosphere. As numerous posters have noted, hydrogen is light. The problem is that it would accumulate in the stratosphere (where the ozone layer is) and react with oxygen to form water. This cools the stratosphere and promotes the breakdown of ozone.
However, this assumes a relatively high leakage rate and is somewhat controversial. More details here, which I found from google. (Would have provided a link to Science, but most people probably don't have accounts to access it...
)A friend of mine threw a 2 liter bottle of sodium into the swimming pool of an apt complex that screwed him at about 4 in the morning. talk about boom. then the sirens started....
I think it is you that must have skipped Chemistry. The reason that there is very little hydrogen on Earth is because most of it floated away into space a long time ago. Also a fuel cell does not split H2O, it creates it. Fuel Cells do not require or create anything that damages the environment. The only waste is water.
awww
Awww, ruin everybody's fun. Apple wasn't first.
Although with 12 watts of output, Apple may be the only one capable of making a notebook that can run with that little power!
Looking at the toshiba specs, this is really cool. 2.5 pounds of fuel will run you for 100 hours. I could take this on a photo trip into the middle of nowhere for a week and be able to store and edit my digital files!
Awww, ruin everybody's fun. Apple wasn't first.
Although with 12 watts of output, Apple may be the only one capable of making a notebook that can run with that little power!
Looking at the toshiba specs, this is really cool. 2.5 pounds of fuel will run you for 100 hours. I could take this on a photo trip into the middle of nowhere for a week and be able to store and edit my digital files!
There's always another way to look at it
You are right about how fuel cells work, but they indirectly pollute just like electric cars. Hyrdrogen is hard to find just laying around, so it must be created. Often times with electricity, or refined from a hydrocarbon fuel source.
Are you sure hydrogen just floated away? Lighter than air doesn't mean negative weight and doesn't mean it's not affected by gravity.
You are right about how fuel cells work, but they indirectly pollute just like electric cars. Hyrdrogen is hard to find just laying around, so it must be created. Often times with electricity, or refined from a hydrocarbon fuel source.
Are you sure hydrogen just floated away? Lighter than air doesn't mean negative weight and doesn't mean it's not affected by gravity.
To whoever thought of a combination of lithium polymer batteries and fuel cells: Right on! It would be awesome if the entire case of a laptop were made out of a lithium polymer battery and it had a fuel cell slot for backup =) I bet a laptop like that could go for weeks hahaha...
Pure sodium and water is always fun to play with, as long as you don't breathe the sodium hydroxide gas that comes along with it, lol =) We reacted some sodium and water in my chemistry class at the beginning of the year, under teacher supervision of course I was a wee bit close and our teacher didn't tell me about the gas until I started breathing it and my lungs were burning hehhehheh....He just said "Yes, that's the sodium hydroxide gas reacting with your flesh!"
Sorry if I'm off topic here, but what have you guys done in your chem classes? We made thermite and ice cream a few weeks ago...fun fun fun!
Pure sodium and water is always fun to play with, as long as you don't breathe the sodium hydroxide gas that comes along with it, lol =) We reacted some sodium and water in my chemistry class at the beginning of the year, under teacher supervision of course
I was a wee bit close and our teacher didn't tell me about the gas until I started breathing it and my lungs were burning hehhehheh....He just said "Yes, that's the sodium hydroxide gas reacting with your flesh!"Sorry if I'm off topic here, but what have you guys done in your chem classes? We made thermite and ice cream a few weeks ago...fun fun fun!
???????
some people are dumb as hell! lol, how old are youguys? too bad. i hope you are younger than 7. good luck living.
some people are dumb as hell! lol, how old are youguys? too bad. i hope you are younger than 7. good luck living.
Re: There's always another way to look at it
I guess hydrogen is so light that when it floats to the upper atmosphere, the molecules bounce around so much that some reach escape velocity. The atmosphere continually leaks the stuff.
I guess hydrogen is so light that when it floats to the upper atmosphere, the molecules bounce around so much that some reach escape velocity. The atmosphere continually leaks the stuff.
Re: Hydrogen
Whatever caused the spark the H2 in the hindenburg fueled the fire H2 reacts with O2 to create H2o and a heck of a lot of energy. The major obstacle to the fuel cell was the question of how to contain the violent reaction of hydrogen and oxygen. It is a very pure reaction with the only product (besides energy) being water at any temperature. Unlike Octanes which put out more CO at higher reation temps. The Hindenburg disaster is the major reason blimps switched to Helium because it is a noble or inert gas. And FYI the US is the largest produce of H2 I believe they mine it in TexasOriginally posted by toes
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."
The Hindenburg Combustion was caused by the paint coat used on the skin.
Go here for more: http://www.vidicom-tv.com/tohiburg.htm
What are you talking about?
Hydrogen DOES escape the atmosphere at a fairly fast rate (which, fyi, is one reason that the earth is YOUNG).
Hydrogen DOES escape the atmosphere at a fairly fast rate (which, fyi, is one reason that the earth is YOUNG).
You realise flammability is just a function of the reactivity of the oxidation of the molecule right? ie. Highly flammable generally equates to higher oxidation rates. The only issue is activation energy, which for hydrogen is relatively easily obtainable especially in higher reaches of the atmosphere.
The average molecular velocity for Hydrogen at 273K only works out at around 1 100 m/s or a touch below Mach 4, well below escape velocities. Yes you get some leakage of ionised Hydrogen but Hydrogen is so incredibly reactive once it hits upper atmosphere (you do realise how easy it is to split molecular hydrogen right?) there's a good chance it's going to react and drop to lower heights.
Even the Hydrogen that does escape then is in a balance with that carried from solar winds.
I too was curious how all the water vapor would effect the climate. One would think we'd get more rain/humidity.
As I understand, the more recent developments into H-cells uses a reaction of hydrogen with a metallic catalyst. However, liquid hydrogen is really, really cold.
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."
Well, actually, pure hydrogen won't burn. Yet when mixed with an oxidizer (such as oxygen) you can have quite a fireball. Much like calcium carbide won't burn on its own... although mixed with water it will produce acetylene... a gas that burns very hot (and often used to cut metal).
As I understand, the more recent developments into H-cells uses a reaction of hydrogen with a metallic catalyst. However, liquid hydrogen is really, really cold.
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."
Well, actually, pure hydrogen won't burn. Yet when mixed with an oxidizer (such as oxygen) you can have quite a fireball. Much like calcium carbide won't burn on its own... although mixed with water it will produce acetylene... a gas that burns very hot (and often used to cut metal).
Hydrogen is much less dangerous a addition to the atmosephere than carbon dioxide. The natural balance for carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is much easier to disrupt because there is a great deal less of it than hydrogen.
In addition, though it is flammable, it will not pool on the ground like gasoline fumes. It is lighter than air and acts like it.
This is a really cool technology that could do a great deal to solve some of the world's most terrible problems. It's a decentralized alternative to oil. Perfect for third world nations that are with good reason suspicious of multinational power companies and for other countries dependent on oil barons for their power. It's cheap and you can build them in your garage. Oh yeah, and for laptops.
Too bad the clean, safe, and easy methods of electrolysis aren't nearly as clear-cut.
In addition, though it is flammable, it will not pool on the ground like gasoline fumes. It is lighter than air and acts like it.
This is a really cool technology that could do a great deal to solve some of the world's most terrible problems. It's a decentralized alternative to oil. Perfect for third world nations that are with good reason suspicious of multinational power companies and for other countries dependent on oil barons for their power. It's cheap and you can build them in your garage. Oh yeah, and for laptops
.Too bad the clean, safe, and easy methods of electrolysis aren't nearly as clear-cut.
I totally agree. Almost of the hydrogen that does escape into the atmosphere would react with the O2 in it to create water over a short period of time as it rises through the atmosphere. You can prove that to yourself by filling up a balloon with hydrogen and oxygen and heating it up. Don't forget to put your ear right next to the balloon .
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(Off topic a little) Speaking of sodium ... my school has a party every year where some people get the biggest chunk of sodium they can find (I think last year's was close to 50 pounds) and throw it in the local River ...
But about hydrogen: I believe some (but not a whole lot) escapes. Some also forms pocket of H30 (by reacting with moisture in the atmosphere) to form what we know as Ozone.
But about hydrogen: I believe some (but not a whole lot) escapes. Some also forms pocket of H30 (by reacting with moisture in the atmosphere) to form what we know as Ozone.
Re: What are you talking about?
OK, thanks. It's easier to absorb someone elses knowlage than to research by myself!
As for what am I talking about, did you mean how do electric cars pollute? Well the power plant required to provide electricity most likely pollutes, and it takes as much power to drive an electric car on a highway as 15-30 average houses use. 1HP = about 750 watts, and an aerodynamic car can go 60MPH with about 20-30 HP. So an electric car is using about 20,000 watts, and many houses average around 2,000 watts.
OK, thanks. It's easier to absorb someone elses knowlage than to research by myself!
As for what am I talking about, did you mean how do electric cars pollute? Well the power plant required to provide electricity most likely pollutes, and it takes as much power to drive an electric car on a highway as 15-30 average houses use. 1HP = about 750 watts, and an aerodynamic car can go 60MPH with about 20-30 HP. So an electric car is using about 20,000 watts, and many houses average around 2,000 watts.
Toshiba is doing pretty good, they just need to refine their forumla to get more baattery life out of it.
best thing from the article on the INQ.
hahaha!
best thing from the article on the INQ.
hahaha!