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Originally posted by MacManDan
(Off topic a little) Speaking of sodium ... my school has a party every year where some people get the biggest chunk of sodium they can find (I think last year's was close to 50 pounds) and throw it in the local River ...

But about hydrogen: I believe some (but not a whole lot) escapes. Some also forms pocket of H30 (by reacting with moisture in the atmosphere) to form what we know as Ozone.

Wow, that's a lot of sodium--and very dangerous (think a decent bomb). What town in Mass, btw? Maybe I'll have to come check it out.

Anyway, ozone is O3, not H3O!

And again for everyone else, note my post above: molecular hydrogen (H2) would rise through the atmosphere and in the stratosphere would be broken into atomic or ionized hydrogen by solar UV radiation, which would combine with oxygen to create water (cooling the stratosphere in the process). By itself, this water is harmless, but the cooling of the stratosphere could result in the breakdown of ozone (again, O3) and exacerbation of the ozone holes in the Antarctic and Arctic.
 
Originally posted by topicolo
That's funny, sodium is a solid metal...

Sodium is typically stored in glycerin, as it reacts with water vapor in the atmosphere (very favorable reaction!). So perhaps the bottle held the solid sodium in liquid glycerin.

And yes, I remember our teacher's demo from those high school days (somewhat) long ago (well, 12 years anyway). I also recalll the story she told us of a friend who worked in another school district. Said school district hired a new chemistry teacher who proceeded to clean the stockroom of old, nasty stuff by stupidly flushing it down the toilet (highly illegal--and nowadays the EPA is cracking down). Anyway, you all can figure out what happened with the unlabeled bottle of sodium. The commode was no longer attached to the floor, and the teacher no longer had a job.
 
I'm rather late to this discussion, but I wanted to confirm and reiterate a few points that have already been brought up, as well as add a bit.

For reference, I work at a small fuel cell research lab in the US, so I have some idea what I'm talking about. There is one running on a test bench about 8 feet behind my head as I write this, and 3 more stacks capable of producing ~1KW each within sight of where I'm sitting.

That said, the fuel cells that will go into laptops are unlikely to be the same type as the ones that will go into cars or power plants (which are the type I work with). They are more likely to be something more along the lines of a hydrogen battery--still a closed process, but that can be run in reverse to "charge" it off of electric current (plugging your PB into the wall).

There would be no external waste, and no fuel added--the theoretical advantage being more stored power.

You could also run a fuel cell off of stored hydrogen cartridges, or a hydorcarbon like methanol or maybe butane. Hydrogen could be stored in a hydride, which would prevent any major leakage, stores a lot of hydrogen at low pressure, and in fact gets colder as you suck hydrogen out of it, so it could actually be used as active cooling.

In the case of hydrocarbon fuels, you would drop in a little fuel cartridge, which would make for uber-fast recharges, nearly limitless carryable power storage, but a distribution problem--you'd probably want an internal battery as an alternative, maybe something you could swap out.

In any of the above cases, the fuel cell is not likely to run very hot, probably no more so than a battery being charged now, and maybe cooler. The amount of water produced would be very small, and would be in a vapor form; I assume it would be stored internally (in the fuel cartridge as it emptied), or it could just be exhausted out the back as a tiny warm, moist airstream--it'd be less moisture produced than when you exhale, so it wouldn't exactly be dripping out the back.

One thing is for sure: these are on the way, and they're going to happen. As pointed Toshiba, as well as NEC and several other companies are well along in the development process, and I'd look for refined versions in a few years max. This is not second page news, it's the cutting edge.

Lastly, a couple general notes about hydrogen as a fuel: It isn't a fuel, it's an energy storage medium (some people here understand that, many don't seem to). You make it with something, then react it with oxygen to make water and electricity. You can extract hydrogen from a carbon (usually fossil) fuel, or you can make it from water by putting energy in (more than you get back out later, but that's the cost of energy storage). Ideally, you'll be getting hydrogen electrolyzed from water using renewable energy, in which case the environmental impact would be minimal.

Hydrogen is actually a reasonably safe fuel, and the FAA has already started to make concessions for carrying hydrogen powered laptops on planes. Likewise, as pointed out, the Hindenburg didn't explode because of the hydrogen, it was a rocket fuel coating on its skin. The burning hydrogen after the explosion went straight up, not injuring anybody.

And the ozone issue brought up by that Cal Tech study is based on accurate science, but highly questionable in pratice--the leak rate they assumed is nearly 10 times what would be realistic, and a simple catalyst on the vent would prevent ANY hydrogen from leaving a system.

You'll be seeing major consumer use of hydrogen within 20 years, and laptops may well be at the forefront much sooner. I hope Apple is front and center.
 
Originally posted by noverflow
Last time i checked, hydrogen had one valance electron.

also, when hydrogen is hit by cosmic rays we get mesons, and they only last for a few ms... so here is an other reason there is so little hydrogen in out atmosphere

Fascinating - Spock
 
Originally posted by Makosuke
I'm rather late to this discussion, but I wanted to confirm and reiterate a few points that have already been brought up, as well as add a bit.

Wow. Thanks for the summary Makosuke.

If the cell ends up being a closed system, I assume the water produced would be electrolyzed when you plug it in to be recharged. Do you know what form the hydrogen would most likely be in? Gas, hydride, trapped in a zeolite or something similar?
 
Originally posted by cooper13
Wow, that's a lot of sodium--and very dangerous (think a decent bomb). What town in Mass, btw? Maybe I'll have to come check it out.

Anyway, ozone is O3, not H3O!

Oops, you're right about that one. I knew it was something along those lines .. but this is why I'm not a chem major! :p Argh, there goes my credibility. ;)

Anyway, my school is in Boston (well, Cambridge actually) .. and although I didn't attend, I heard that the explosion/fireball was quite large... (and very impressive). I'm gonna get in touch with a friend of mine and make sure it really was 50 lbs... ;)

Makosuke: do you happen to know what % the efficiency is at for these fuel cells?
 
makosuke, nice post. I agree that the Caltech study was a worst case scenario, and personally I am very in favor of the use of fuel cells and hydrogen. You said that you could put a catalyst on the vent to prevent leakage, but I thought their study assumed most leakage from pipelines, transfers, etc.--although I don't recall right off.

At any rate, the commentary in Science did note others who stated (as you have) that the leakage rates assumed are extreme (and it also assumes that ALL cars are powered by fuel cells). Plus, there are lots of ways to minimize the amount of leakage, so this problem shouldn't be a show-stopper. I mainly kept banging away at it to correct some of the misconceptions stated earlier in this thread.
 
If the cell ends up being a closed system, I assume the water produced would be electrolyzed when you plug it in to be recharged. Do you know what form the hydrogen would most likely be in? Gas, hydride, trapped in a zeolite or something similar?

My lab only works with larger H2-in H2O-out fuel cells, so I can't say for sure what form the hydrogen would be stored in, and I can't find the article I most recently read, so I can't check what the companies working on these are using. My offhand guess would be a hydride, since the technology is relatively mature, although hydrides are also water sensitive so pressurized gas is also quite possible, since a fuel cell run backwards (a solid-electrode electrolyzer, that is) can produce hydorgen at several hundred PSI in theory.

Makosuke: do you happen to know what % the efficiency is at for these fuel cells?

I'm not sure about embedded-size fuel cells, but in general current efficiency figures run somewhere in the 50% to 60% range for hydrogen in to electricity out. Higher numbers are theoretically possible, but I expect that's the vicinity for a laptop style cell/stack.

Of course, the power-in-to-power-out efficiency of a system would be quite a bit lower (especially for a closed-loop fuel cell charged while a laptop was plugged in--electrolysis runs somewhere from 50-85% efficient, depending on the technology). But when you're talking about very small amounts of juice in the grand scheme of things and more power density in storage, the wire-to-wire efficiency isn't all that important.

This is getting rather off topic, and I apologize, but if you want a fuel cell powered portable right now, my lab has built several demonstration prototype suitcase-sized portable generators that'll put out enough juice for a low power desktop and LCD monitor, or a laptop (running off AC in this case). The system is built for neither compactness (the opposite, in fact), nor efficiency in running a computer, but you can run a laptop for probably a couple hours off a 0.5-liter bottle of hydrogen, and maybe three times that off a hydride cylinder of the same size:

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/stackinabox.html
 
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