Apple Puts Foxconn Factory in India on Probation Following Protests

[dysamoria]

If they really wanted to try, they would operate and manage their manufacturing plants themselves - even if it was in "cheap labour" markets.

Agreed. They don’t do it, probably because of “supply chain expert” Tim Cook knowing that they wouldn’t make as much profit if they ran such a plant directly. They’d have to buy an existing plant, or buy/rent land and build one, manage the local business, etc... Expenses Apple don’t want to pay.

They’re still more willing to pay the expense of worker mistreatment, because it doesn’t impact the bottom line in an easy to demonstrate calculation to the board.

 

[dysamoria]

Maximizing profits and taking care of customers are not mutually exclusive.

They certainly don’t have to be. Maximizing profit and taking care of workers doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive either.

But greed seems to ensure that profit margins matter more than employees and customers. Abuse of both is ensured by “maximizing” from that mindset (profit over people), so long as effective regulation doesn’t actively stop it doing so.

The bigger the corporation, the more likely that the executives and the board will make decisions that screw customers and workers for the impression of perpetual growth, so that the gambling den of Wall Street shows favor to their stock.

This is what happens when you have leadership entirely composed of wealthy people insulated from the reality of their lowest wage employees. Plutocratic oligarchy happens when power is concentrated among the wealthy.

 

[dysamoria]

Let's assume for a brief fantasy moment that iPhones are made in the USA.
What do you think will come first?
(a) consumers willing to pay substantially more for their devices
or
(b) Apple and Apple shareholders willing to earn less

If there's one thing that's become crystal clear from all the recent legal entanglements Apple's been involved in it's that they're a (capital "c") Company just like any other. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you follow the laws on the books.
All the feel-good, lovey-dovey, prose is there to serve the one thing every Company wants: more profits and shareholder return.
To quote Metallica: Nothing Else Matters.

There’s a lot wrong with it, because the laws on the books are written by the same people using them to exploit workers, customers, and society itself (by the rest of us subsidizing the taxes they won’t pay, and infrastructure falling apart as a result of “no funding” and excuses made for why we “can’t afford” to support society).

 

[dysamoria]

One billion Apple customers are happy about slave labour.

I'm not saying that they are actual slaves by force. They are Economic slaves.

Most customers aren’t aware that this is a fact. Most people are distracted to exhaustion by just getting through their own miserable lives. Then there’re things like Dunbar’s Number making it hard for people to see workers in foreign countries as having anything to do with their buying decisions.

It’s not necessarily a callous choice on the part of customers.

 

[dysamoria]

not at all. people need to get out the yearly upgrade cycle and I couldn't care less about Apple stock.

Fully agreed.

 

[dysamoria]

So you are saying one billion apple customers are happy there are many, many people who have been given jobs who wouldn’t have had any work?

Why do you assert that Apple is the only entity that would lead to their employment? Foxcon would likely have a client to manufacture for with or Apple being the name on the contract.

“No Apple = unemployed people” assumes no other entity will take the opportunity to hire Foxcon. We know this isn’t factual; there has been reporting about competitors complaining that Apple monopolizes the availability of assemblers like Foxcon.

 

[dysamoria]

The caste system is slavery and some wellness people and libertarian people want to bring that to the rest of the world with deregulation, fossil fuel causing climate disasters, web3 and pyramid schemes.

Don't let it happen. Resist and protest.

Wellness people?

 

[I7guy]

They certainly don’t have to be. Maximizing profit and taking care of workers doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive either.

Sure, and they aren’t either.

But greed seems to ensure that profit margins matter more than employees and customers. Abuse of both is ensured by “maximizing” from that mindset (profit over people), so long as effective regulation doesn’t actively stop it doing so.

What greed? In a general, 50,000 foot this might have a grain of truth, but apple doesn’t have any manufacturing facilities. Foxconn does much of iPhones manufacture and apple has guidelines and audits that it uses to address issues at these plants.

The bigger the corporation, the more likely that the executives and the board will make decisions that screw customers and workers for the impression of perpetual growth, so that the gambling den of Wall Street shows favor to their stock.

Have you seen companies that screw customers, Enron and Bernie Madoff come to mind.

This is what happens when you have leadership entirely composed of wealthy people insulated from the reality of their lowest wage employees. Plutocratic oligarchy happens when power is concentrated among the wealthy.

What happens? Have you heard of wealthy ceos who have worked their way up from less than nothing? You believe apple store retail employees (maybe the lowest wage employees) should be paid more?

 

[dysamoria]

I don’t care. It’s easy 2 find job these days

By all means, show us where to find all the living-wage jobs with healthcare “benefits”.

 

[I7guy]

Why do you assert that Apple is the only entity that would lead to their employment? Foxcon would likely have a client to manufacture for with or Apple being the name on the contract.

“No Apple = unemployed people” assumes no other entity will take the opportunity to hire Foxcon. We know this isn’t factual; there has been reporting about competitors complaining that Apple monopolizes the availability of assemblers like Foxcon.

This is a thread about apple and India and Foxconn. Foxconn likely employees people who currently don’t have employment. And Foxconn is fairly good to its employees not withstanding what happened in India.

 

[dysamoria]

Have you seen companies that screw customers, Enron and Bernie Madoff come to mind.

What happens? Have you heard of wealthy ceos who have worked their way up from less than nothing? You believe apple store retail employees (maybe the lowest wage employees) should be paid more?

Show me the wealthy CEOs who built themselves up from less than nothing.

It is mostly a myth to promote the “American Dream” propaganda. To call attention to the tiny minority who have built themselves up from nothing, and use them as a defense for the whole system, is to engage in survivorship bias.

On top of that, the path to such uncommon success has far more roadblocks today than decades ago, including by the very corporations originally “built up from nothing”. Self-starters today face endless anticompetitive predatory obstruction by “IP owners” (including by “our favorite” company Apple), and that’s if they can even get as far as starting anything while trying to get by in the first place.

Yes, Apple retail store employees should be paid more: a living wage.

I’m not excluding Enron & others in my complaints. If you’re defending Apple against what you perceive to be me targeting them to the exclusion of other abusive corporations, then please note that’s not my intent.

 

[dysamoria]

This is a thread about apple and India and Foxconn. Foxconn likely employees people who currently don’t have employment. And Foxconn is fairly good to its employees not withstanding what happened in India.

You want to limit the scope of the conversation to just Apple, India, and Foxcon, but you want to exclude what happened in India, by Foxcon, under contract with Apple, to say that unemployed people are employed because of Apple and are treated well.

I don’t see how that works.

 

[dysamoria]

The technology probably exists given that Liam exists, but it’s probably not very cost efficient. Each new generation and new configuration will need a new automation process that will cost way to much just to be changed a year later. Look at how much trouble Tesla had with automating the Model 3 manufacturing, and that was for components much larger than the iPhone’s.

The reference to Liam is perfect. Liam was a showpiece, and it succeeded in convincing many people that Apple recycles every iPhone (with a robot!).

Neither assumption is correct (the robotic system does not recycle most of what Apple recycle, and Apple don’t doesn’t recycle anywhere near most of the iPhones they build).Still, Apple wins respect for both erroneous beliefs being held.

Liam is a great research effort, but Apple insistence in arbitrarily changing design every couple of years stands in the way of automating disassembly AND assembly.

The board demands marketing to demand design changes, to trick customers into buying the same product again every year. The hand that created Liam is being sabotaged by the hand that rules over the perception of profitability and maximizing profits.

 

[I7guy]

Show me the wealthy CEOs who built themselves up from less than nothing.

Contact Support

It is mostly a myth to promote the “American Dream” propaganda. To call attention to the tiny minority who have built themselves up from nothing, and use them as a defense for the whole system, is to engage in survivorship bias.

I disagree it’s a myth.

On top of that, the path to such uncommon success has far more roadblocks today than decades ago, including by the very corporations originally “built up from nothing”. Self-starters today face endless anticompetitive predatory obstruction by “IP owners” (including by “our favorite” company Apple), and that’s if they can even get as far as starting anything while trying to get by in the first place.

Ok

Yes, Apple retail store employees should be paid more: a living wage.

They are free to find other jobs. Apple is probably paying a prevailing wage plus benefits. Employment in the US is mostly at will.

I’m not excluding Enron & others in my complaints. If you’re defending Apple against what you perceive to be me targeting them to the exclusion of other abusive corporations, then please note that’s not my intent.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

You want to limit the scope of the conversation to just Apple, India, and Foxcon, but you want to exclude what happened in India, by Foxcon, under contract with Apple, to say that unemployed people are employed because of Apple and are treated well.

I am not excluding India. Apple is attempting to right a wrong there.

I don’t see how that works.

What happened to those workers in the Foxconn plant is not excusable but now that the incident is in the public eye hopefully the situation will be rectified.

 

[I7guy]

[…]

Liam is a great research effort, but Apple insistence in arbitrarily changing design every couple of years stands in the way of automating disassembly AND assembly.

[…]

Every single company that manufacturers consumer grade products does the same thing. You want people to stop buying products? That, imo, is what would happen if manufacturers didn’t continually update their products.

 

[dysamoria]

Anyway, the reason Apple has manufacturing in China has little to do with low wages, and the more to do with the Chinese ability to set up and automate production lines, the logistics and infrastructure, ample supply of skilled workers, that is all the stuff that is lacking in both India and the US.

So you couldn't bring the jobs back to America, because you don't have the facilities, you don't have the skilled workforce, you don't have the supply chain of electronics components that are available in Shenzhen, you don't even have the assembly work force needed to assemble those phones.

No, it is absolutely the case that American companies wanted to maximize profits by having cheaper labor. The reason the USA lacks the infrastructure and “skill” is because American corporations outsourced it overseas. The infrastructure was sold off, fell apart, became obsolete, and the workers went elsewhere, unable to maintain those skills, and probably many aged out of the workforce or died off since then.

When American electronics corporations claim they “can’t manufacture here because of lack of skills and tools”, it’s entirely a self-inflicted limitation.

When they complain “Americans aren’t willing to do the work”, they are really saying that the USA’s populous won’t work under the exploitative conditions found overseas. That’s a good thing, yet they characterize it as some kind character failing of American workers.

These companies could take a bit less profit and pay workers what they’re actually worth, but they don’t want to and no one compels them to do so. When threatened with legislation to do so, they threaten increased costs, because they’re sure as hell not going to take less profit just to follow the meager employment protections demanded in the USA.

These threats work because most people don’t explore the issues beyond the surface memes, and because these companies spend millions on political “donations” to ensure regulation is toothless or entirely absent. All to maintain the profit margins and excessive executive pay rates (which have grown to hundreds of times the median worker pay rate, while worker pay rates have stagnated).

They can afford to support American workers. They simply refuse to do so.

As for all the other glowing commentary about China in your post... I’m not convinced.

 

[dysamoria]

Contact Support

I disagree it’s a myth.

Ok

They are free to find other jobs. Apple is probably paying a prevailing wage plus benefits. Employment in the US is mostly at will.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

I am not excluding India. Apple is attempting to right a wrong there.

What happened to those workers in the Foxconn plant is not excusable but now that the incident is in the public eye hopefully the situation will be rectified.

I’ll look at your link. Thanks.

Finding living wage jobs with healthcare is very difficult. I think almost nobody is “free to change jobs” in the USA. I just had a conversation with a friend about this very thing last night. He wants to move back to the east coast (the tech bro companies utterly broke Portland with gentrification), but can’t even imagine how to survive here (job, money). I myself am on disability and can’t see a path forward with another employer due to my health issues (largely created by my last employer).

It seems almost everyone is struggling with this very issue. To say that people can “just change jobs” totally glosses over the reality for most people.

I really do appreciate Apple’s efforts where they’re documented as being substantive (especially if it’s not a mere PR bandaid). I stuck with Apple beyond 2013 not because I think they’re the best, but because I think they’re the least bad. It’s sort of a compliment, I think, ha.

I really do hope Apple corrects these issues with their contractor Foxconn, and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in several instances... but not absolutely, and not to the fullest extent. They do contribute to a lot of same harm done by all of these huge tech corporations, they object to a lot of proposed improvements, and are hypocritical about some of their (marketed!) core ethos.

But again, they DO seem to regard certain ethical behaviors as important enough to promote, and even seem to believe are profitable. That’s rare enough to try to support it. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother engaging in conversation about Apple.

 

[dysamoria]

Every single company that manufacturers consumer grade products does the same thing. You want people to stop buying products? That, imo, is what would happen if manufacturers didn’t continually update their products.

I think people would stop buying things unless they needed to replace their existing ones. I don’t see a problem with that. That’s how economics used to function... and then various types of planned obsolescence was brought into product making.

Some of this is by design, and some of it is a consequence of making product cheaper to produce (lower quality materials, bad design, etc) for the purpose of lowering the costs of selling stuff, to pocket more profit (doing it to lower costs for customers stopped being a thing some time ago).

Also, makers (or their primary stock holders) realized they could trick customers into buying the same thing again and again, with dubious (or zero) added value in doing so. The added value is all for the seller, not the buyer.

 

[I7guy]

I think people would stop buying things unless they needed to replace their existing ones. I don’t see a problem with that. That’s how economics used to function... and then various types of planned obsolescence was brought into product making.

Some of this is by design, and some of it is a consequence of making product cheaper to produce (lower quality materials, bad design, etc) for the purpose of lowering the costs of selling stuff, to pocket more profit (doing it to lower costs for customers stopped being a thing some time ago).

Also, makers (or their primary stock holders) realized they could trick customers into buying the same thing again and again, with dubious (or zero) added value in doing so. The added value is all for the seller, not the buyer.

I don’t buy this entire premise. New tech and new products has been coming f out for decades and it’s a consumers personal decision on What to buy. You can’t judge the relative merits of new products for the masses of consumers, only for yourself.

If I want to buy a new tv every year to go from he, to ultra hd to 8k, that’s on me.

Tech always comes down in prices. 4K TVs can be had for $399, unlike your premise above.

 

[I7guy]

I’ll look at your link. Thanks.

Finding living wage jobs with healthcare is very difficult. I think almost nobody is “free to change jobs” in the USA. I just had a conversation with a friend about this very thing last night. He wants to move back to the east coast (the tech bro companies utterly broke Portland with gentrification), but can’t even imagine how to survive here (job, money). I myself am on disability and can’t see a path forward with another employer due to my health issues (largely created by my last employer).

It seems almost everyone is struggling with this very issue. To say that people can “just change jobs” totally glosses over the reality for most people.

I really do appreciate Apple’s efforts where they’re documented as being substantive (especially if it’s not a mere PR bandaid). I stuck with Apple beyond 2013 not because I think they’re the best, but because I think they’re the least bad. It’s sort of a compliment, I think, ha.

I really do hope Apple corrects these issues with their contractor Foxconn, and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in several instances... but not absolutely, and not to the fullest extent. They do contribute to a lot of same harm done by all of these huge tech corporations, they object to a lot of proposed improvements, and are hypocritical about some of their (marketed!) core ethos.

But again, they DO seem to regard certain ethical behaviors as important enough to promote, and even seem to believe are profitable. That’s rare enough to try to support it. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother engaging in conversation about Apple.

Far afield at this point, but there are avenues available for all to better their lot in life. Not saying it’s instant, but it can be done.

 

[4743913]

So when you have no rational argumentation, you turn to sarcasm and ad hominem attacks. Do you actually think you’re winning some kind of argument this way?

its the only response for bizarre and ridiculous rantings. regardless of situation, "taking from others" should not be a strategy.

 

[HiVolt]

Agreed. They don’t do it, probably because of “supply chain expert” Tim Cook knowing that they wouldn’t make as much profit if they ran such a plant directly. They’d have to buy an existing plant, or buy/rent land and build one, manage the local business, etc... Expenses Apple don’t want to pay.

They’re still more willing to pay the expense of worker mistreatment, because it doesn’t impact the bottom line in an easy to demonstrate calculation to the board.

Oh of course that's the reason why.

But that's what makes them hypocrites when it comes to social justice.

 

[I7guy]

Agreed. They don’t do it, probably because of “supply chain expert” Tim Cook knowing that they wouldn’t make as much profit if they ran such a plant directly. They’d have to buy an existing plant, or buy/rent land and build one, manage the local business, etc... Expenses Apple don’t want to pay.

They’re still more willing to pay the expense of worker mistreatment, because it doesn’t impact the bottom line in an easy to demonstrate calculation to the board.

It was Steve Jobs ultimate decision to outsource manufacturing. Very good decision for apple overall. Win/win for all concerned.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Wellness people?

Same bad crowd. Grifting quacks and con artists.

 

[dysamoria]

its the only response for bizarre and ridiculous rantings. regardless of situation, "taking from others" should not be a strategy.

Yet it’s the exact strategy of laissez-faire capitalism.