I'd love see market data on how many buy the Mac Pro for the PCIe card slots. IMO, the next Mac Pro should be sized down away from the tower configuration and move into a cube or "tall shoebox" shape with about double the desktop footprint of the Mac Mini. Get rid of the CD drives and just have a box with PCIe slots. Then stack what you want on a Thunderbolt bus. Keep the brushed aluminum!
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Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?
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iMac I/O just not beefy enough
I'm currently working on the soundtrack for a documentary. The filmmaker I am working with is presently using an iMac Corei7 2.93 ghz machine for all of her work and saving her data when done to an external Firewire 800 drive.
To back up her existing project to an external firewire 800 drive it took over 7 hours to back up 15,781 files. The current project (the one I'm doing the music for) is nearly as large and she figures it will take another 7 hours to back it up to another external drive.
This is why the tower machines are desirable: who has 7 hours to sit twiddling their thumbs copying data? That is the better part of a business day.
If she had waited a little and gotten the next revision of the iMac she would have had a Thunderbolt port where she could vastly increase that speed but presently it's about $500 for a thunderbolt equipped powered case with 2 TB drive. Very expensive.
I've considered removing the Superdrive out of my iMac when my Applecare runs out so I can use its eSata connector to connect to another drive but I'm not sure how effective that would be. Then I could use a faster more capable bluray burner via USB or FW if I need a burner.
Still, it's ridiculous. I have 7 external drives in powered cases and it really clutters up my workspace.
I'm currently working on the soundtrack for a documentary. The filmmaker I am working with is presently using an iMac Corei7 2.93 ghz machine for all of her work and saving her data when done to an external Firewire 800 drive.
To back up her existing project to an external firewire 800 drive it took over 7 hours to back up 15,781 files. The current project (the one I'm doing the music for) is nearly as large and she figures it will take another 7 hours to back it up to another external drive.
This is why the tower machines are desirable: who has 7 hours to sit twiddling their thumbs copying data? That is the better part of a business day.
If she had waited a little and gotten the next revision of the iMac she would have had a Thunderbolt port where she could vastly increase that speed but presently it's about $500 for a thunderbolt equipped powered case with 2 TB drive. Very expensive.
I've considered removing the Superdrive out of my iMac when my Applecare runs out so I can use its eSata connector to connect to another drive but I'm not sure how effective that would be. Then I could use a faster more capable bluray burner via USB or FW if I need a burner.
Still, it's ridiculous. I have 7 external drives in powered cases and it really clutters up my workspace.
Really, I doubt it is. Heck, I'd wager most OS X software these days is written on MBPs and iMacs and even MBAs than Mac Pros. Most of the bigger projects are also done in collaborative environnements where all the code is in repositories for version control and like I said, testing in VMs is done on hypervisors on the network.
The very tiny niche you're talking about is probably not producing very "mass market" software to begin with, but targetting another "very niche" set of users. This doesn't quite make the argument that the Mac Pro is not a niche or at least, very fast heading to niche level unit shipments.
It remains to be seen how long Apple plans on sustaining said niche before just dropping it.
I think to drop the Mac Pro at this moment in time would be incredibly short sighted, thunderbolt just isn't mature enough to replace PCIe, in the future it may be, and the big workstation may very well become obsolete for nearly everyone.
I still found the dropping of the xServe line short sighted, I'd love to have some hard data as to how many people changed their upgrade policy in education/enterprise due to them dropping the xServe. After all the xServe was generally purchased to serve a number of mac desktops or laptops, and for some the mini server, or mac pro server was not up to scratch. So how many macs have not been purchased due to the dropping of the xServe, instead replace by windows or linux servers that maintain non apple hardware. Many of these macs that have, or are being replaced will be in education, where kids will learn how to use computers, when I was in college I found the mac the best (and at the time only option), but if I'd have been taught on windows I may be singing a different tune. If the next generation of prospective apple customers never get a chance to use a mac, they may never choose to buy one in the future.
Likewise, every studio I know, and every post production complex are built around macs, the mac pros run the Pro Tools HD rigs, they run the film editing software, If the pro line is cut short these places may very well migrate to windows, and at some point the receptionists shiny iMac may be replaced by a swanky Vaio, the voice directors iPad might get replaced by an android or windows tablet, so there is conformity across the complex. Just like once Dr. Dre, Metallica, Beastie Boys, Marilyn Manson or whoever is in vogue today start cutting their albums only on Windows, and the "cool" filmmakers start doing the same, part of the apple cool factor may dissipate. Apple has been riding the cool factor for many a year, wether they like it or not, people still see apple as the creative persons computer, even if they have become more generic all purpose computing devices.
If they drop the line in a few years once there are easy and workable solutions to do a lot of the stuff that currently only the Mac Pro can do you probably won't hear me argue, maybe just a few incoherent grumbles, after all IMHO the Mac Pro is apples best ever designed computer, it is a perfect match of form and function, from a company who often have been guilty of form over function, the Cube is a close second
i'm typing this on my i7 iMac, after years of swearing to never buy an all in one again, but the iMac line has come a long way, and suits my needs now nearly perfectly, I do miss the PowerMacs drive bays (or the ones I had in the hackintosh I was using for about 18 months). Even at work we only have the one Mac Pro, but that's because currently it is needed for the Pro Tools HD rig, everything else is iMacs or MBP, or the mini server.
I still found the dropping of the xServe line short sighted, I'd love to have some hard data as to how many people changed their upgrade policy in education/enterprise due to them dropping the xServe. After all the xServe was generally purchased to serve a number of mac desktops or laptops, and for some the mini server, or mac pro server was not up to scratch. So how many macs have not been purchased due to the dropping of the xServe, instead replace by windows or linux servers that maintain non apple hardware. Many of these macs that have, or are being replaced will be in education, where kids will learn how to use computers, when I was in college I found the mac the best (and at the time only option), but if I'd have been taught on windows I may be singing a different tune. If the next generation of prospective apple customers never get a chance to use a mac, they may never choose to buy one in the future.
Likewise, every studio I know, and every post production complex are built around macs, the mac pros run the Pro Tools HD rigs, they run the film editing software, If the pro line is cut short these places may very well migrate to windows, and at some point the receptionists shiny iMac may be replaced by a swanky Vaio, the voice directors iPad might get replaced by an android or windows tablet, so there is conformity across the complex. Just like once Dr. Dre, Metallica, Beastie Boys, Marilyn Manson or whoever is in vogue today start cutting their albums only on Windows, and the "cool" filmmakers start doing the same, part of the apple cool factor may dissipate. Apple has been riding the cool factor for many a year, wether they like it or not, people still see apple as the creative persons computer, even if they have become more generic all purpose computing devices.
If they drop the line in a few years once there are easy and workable solutions to do a lot of the stuff that currently only the Mac Pro can do you probably won't hear me argue, maybe just a few incoherent grumbles, after all IMHO the Mac Pro is apples best ever designed computer, it is a perfect match of form and function, from a company who often have been guilty of form over function, the Cube is a close second
i'm typing this on my i7 iMac, after years of swearing to never buy an all in one again, but the iMac line has come a long way, and suits my needs now nearly perfectly, I do miss the PowerMacs drive bays (or the ones I had in the hackintosh I was using for about 18 months). Even at work we only have the one Mac Pro, but that's because currently it is needed for the Pro Tools HD rig, everything else is iMacs or MBP, or the mini server.
As I mentioned before, there are newer sample libraries (particularly orchestral instruments) that require a huge amount of ram and fast hard drives (SSD recommended).
It's simple enough - if you want to do midi mockups of orchestral music with the latest libraries, it requires ram and hard drive speed/capacity that's unavailable outside of the Mac Pro (and honestly, some of the mac pros aren't even up to the task, even the top of the line models suffer from lack of SATA III for SSDs). Heck, the company that makes the biggest libraries right now is recommending PC over mac, or at least buying a PC in addition to mac and splitting the load over multiple machines.
Also, without PCI slots you can't run things like the Pro Tools hardware which provides lower latency (and plugins while recording without adding extra latency) than you can get with the firewire options on an iMac. That may change with TB but it will be a while before we find out.
Flat out false. I couldn't even open my Logic template on an iMac. And it's not even that hard to bring even a maxed out top of the line Mac Pro to its knees. Audio is a hog since it's a real time process as opposed to a render, and I suspect that audio demands will outstrip hardware improvements for a while to come.
Not to mention that while machines with four ram slots can handle 32 megs of ram, it's vastly more expensive than doing 32 with eight slots. Even if an iMac can do certain things, that doesn't mean it does them as well.
Disgrace
I knew this might happen, is a disgrace if it is true. I have bought pro equipment off Apple for years and it is designers and pro users like me who kept Apple going during their dark days. Now how do we get repaid for this loyalty? Told that this part of the business is not profitable enough and so they will just concentrate on the toy stuff. Where will that leave the company in ten years time? No backbone, no cutting-edge users, just fickle consumers...
I knew this might happen, is a disgrace if it is true. I have bought pro equipment off Apple for years and it is designers and pro users like me who kept Apple going during their dark days. Now how do we get repaid for this loyalty? Told that this part of the business is not profitable enough and so they will just concentrate on the toy stuff. Where will that leave the company in ten years time? No backbone, no cutting-edge users, just fickle consumers...
I'm not sure what the root of the conversation is, but you're neglecting the fact that a proper 30" monitor adds resolution not just upscale. The point is more real estate.
You're talking about a TV monitor, which is just 1920 x 1080 scaled up as you increase the screen size. The resolution is always the same, but you sit further back so it looks sharper.
Apple doesn't owe you anything besides what you paid for. Or do they? I'm seriously asking - are they required to do things which don't maximize shareholder value, and this thing you want in particular?
If you think their consumers are fickle, perhaps you haven't consulted reality (e.g. brand loyalty for non-Pro products from Apple).
Just did it now.
The dell t7500 is about 4500 with every spec matching or beating the mac pro. It also has an additional hard drive bay, built in raid controller, SAS controller, Chassis intrusion controller, and 3 year pro service warranty standard (I added applecare to the mac pro to make this more fair even though applecare is pretty much crap compared to the enterprise warranty you get with the dell).
The mac pro is 5250. I also configured the dell with a 1gb profesional workstation gpu.
Another thing is if you wanted a 12 core on the dell but instead of needing the 2.66 ghz you were ok with 2.4ghz 12 core it goes down to about 3100. Apple offers no option for that. Also add in the fact that you can customize the dell more and the inside of the case is about one of the easiest to work on (much better than the pro).
Also the t3500 and t5500 both can accept 4 hard drives the same number as the mac pro.
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I'd be sad to see them go and it would leave a lot of people in my industry (motion graphics) in the ****.
I love my i7 iMac but 8 rendering threads in C4D isn't enough in many circumstances. 16GB for After Effects is workable sure, but in a production environment the more the better. Those who cry that an i7 is up to any task clearly doesn't work in the industries that require a lot of ad hoc rendering/processing power. And yes, bays and expandability still matter to the professional market.
Sure, some studios have render farms for their 3D/rendering but not the smaller ones (or freelancers like myself). 8/12 core Mac Pro's do the job admirably for small motion graphics/audio/production/editing houses and the iMac (which again, I LOVE) isn't quite up to the job. Plus you're stuck with the screen (which whilst great isn't great for professional setups).
Not convinced they'll shelve it anyhow, as I still (like to) think Apple holds the Pro market in some sort of regard. Can certainly see it changing form factor though and maybe cover the space taken up by both the Pro and the discontinued X-Serve.
Here's to hoping.
I love my i7 iMac but 8 rendering threads in C4D isn't enough in many circumstances. 16GB for After Effects is workable sure, but in a production environment the more the better. Those who cry that an i7 is up to any task clearly doesn't work in the industries that require a lot of ad hoc rendering/processing power. And yes, bays and expandability still matter to the professional market.
Sure, some studios have render farms for their 3D/rendering but not the smaller ones (or freelancers like myself). 8/12 core Mac Pro's do the job admirably for small motion graphics/audio/production/editing houses and the iMac (which again, I LOVE) isn't quite up to the job. Plus you're stuck with the screen (which whilst great isn't great for professional setups).
Not convinced they'll shelve it anyhow, as I still (like to) think Apple holds the Pro market in some sort of regard. Can certainly see it changing form factor though and maybe cover the space taken up by both the Pro and the discontinued X-Serve.
Here's to hoping.
We've got 10 of them at work and I've got one at home for myself.
So we can afford them.
iMac's are nothing but spinning wheels and crashes for the stuff I do. I'll never buy one again. Not even for lightweight stuff. The thing just gridlocks.
And I hate not being able to swap drives out. Oh yes, and how do you add an AJA card into an iMac??
Guess you're view is rather limited. Our receptionist uses and iMac, though.
I agree with the folks on here saying that a Mac Pro is overkill. Maybe there used to be an argument for using Xeon class processors in a workstation, but I see those reasons strongly diminished as multi core chips are now mainstream.
A much smaller, much cheaper all aluminum i7 Ivy Bridge system would be fine. If you need more power than that, how about a render farm? That's probably a better solution to your problem anyway.
I'd be very excited if they had a $1499, $1999, and $2499 pricepoint towers that were high quality workstation class motherboards and CPUs. But not Xeons, come on.
If they do drop the MacPro line, I see the Hackintosh becoming a lot more prevalent.
A much smaller, much cheaper all aluminum i7 Ivy Bridge system would be fine. If you need more power than that, how about a render farm? That's probably a better solution to your problem anyway.
I'd be very excited if they had a $1499, $1999, and $2499 pricepoint towers that were high quality workstation class motherboards and CPUs. But not Xeons, come on.
If they do drop the MacPro line, I see the Hackintosh becoming a lot more prevalent.
Anything where you want to use Pro Tools Native or Pro Tools HD. Which means 90% of the pro audio industry.
Anything using Universal Audio UAD2 DSP cards. Again, a large proportion of both the pro and home recording community.
Anything using TC PowerCore PCIe DSP cards.
I fall into all three categories, so all my MP card slots are full. I could do with one more slot to be honest. I'm also driving two monitors (would like to make it three) and using four internal drives in my MP.
Don't suggest that all this kit could hang off an iMac with a TB connection. Studios are messy enough as it is without having to deal with another pile of external boxes and cables. The Mac Pro is actually a really neat solution for audio and far from the hulking great aluminium box that people are making out... certainly not compared to the alternative.
Yeah, don't know about that. Even with the add-on DSP boards, my MP's processors get maxed out fairly regularly on large projects. The newer, better native plugins use a fair old amount of processor power.
I'm ready to buy a new, TB-equipped Mac Pro as soon as one comes out. I need one yesterday. If Apple were to drop the Mac Pro it would be a massive problem for the audio industry.
If Apple is now about "maximizing shareholder value" then it's on a long downward spiral into oblivion.
Most people who use Apple products, btw, seem to get this. Only those who are brainwashed by "free market" beliefs could assume such a despotic priority.
Really? Lots of people have given very good reasons why a Mac Pro is appropriate and desirable for the work they do, and I agree.
This doesn't mean making and improving such a product is something Apple, from Apple's perspective, should be devoting resources towards. It could be a suboptimal use of Apple's resources, and I've yet to read an argument contrary to that in this thread.
Apple is under legal obligations towards its shareholders and has been for a very long time.
They also have, as history has shown, pursued products which result in optimal profitability and gradually (or quickly) trim the rest.
I submit that someone who thinks Apple does what you want them to do 'because it would be nice if they did that thing because I could sure use it and here's a bunch of great reasons' is the person who is brainwashed, but I don't think such an argument about who has full access to their faculties would be very productive.
I don't believe that Apple should be directed by 'the free market's despotism' but they nonetheless are, whether people like it or not.
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why do this...
I think mac pro is really nice machine..I love his design...I love his server processor..or dual processor...I got q mid 2010... I would not buy an windows machine...this would be the worst notice...after Steve jobs death....I hope apple is joking...MAC pro is.a professional computer...I don t wanna use an iPad or iPhone imac....I want a mac pro... For professional peeps...pro people...please Apple...don t fail more..
I think mac pro is really nice machine..I love his design...I love his server processor..or dual processor...I got q mid 2010... I would not buy an windows machine...this would be the worst notice...after Steve jobs death....I hope apple is joking...MAC pro is.a professional computer...I don t wanna use an iPad or iPhone imac....I want a mac pro... For professional peeps...pro people...please Apple...don t fail more..
Sure, Apple doesn't owe anyone anything. And sure, they should do what makes the most money for the company.
I just don't agree with your opinion that MP doesn't make enough money for apple. Or at the very least, that MP could make enough for apple if they made the right tweaks to that line.
Couldn't agree with you more. Just been on a job where there have been both MPs and PC workstations. My God, the Pro is beautifully engineered both in an out. Super easy access, small footprint (yes, SMALL compared to PC counterparts), super quiet, super cool, even looks great.
EDIT - forgot to mention the handles! - the amount of times workstations get moved around/carried etc it's an often overlooked part of the design. But good Pro orientated design it most certainly is.
Note to the people from Apple reviewing this thread:
I just bought two iMacs, a Macbook Pro, Apple networking and back-up gear and a Mac Pro for a home office and family network.
The Mac Pro was key to the purchase decision. If a high end workstation had not been available from Apple I would have sourced the entire purchase from another manufacturer.
While iMacs and mini's are nice, they simply do not meet my computing needs. Should the Mac Pro be discontinued, not only will my next workstation purchase not be an Apple, the other computers and devices that makeup my IT "solution" will likely be purchased from another vendor.
Thanks for taking the time to consider my comments.
I just bought two iMacs, a Macbook Pro, Apple networking and back-up gear and a Mac Pro for a home office and family network.
The Mac Pro was key to the purchase decision. If a high end workstation had not been available from Apple I would have sourced the entire purchase from another manufacturer.
While iMacs and mini's are nice, they simply do not meet my computing needs. Should the Mac Pro be discontinued, not only will my next workstation purchase not be an Apple, the other computers and devices that makeup my IT "solution" will likely be purchased from another vendor.
Thanks for taking the time to consider my comments.
Well, like I said, the form factor I think has a place, but Xeon class CPUs, in my opinion, are overpriced and bring very little benefit. I'd be very excited about cheaper i7 desktop machines with all the expandability of a MacPro that didn't have a Xeon.
With the way these 4 and 6 core Ivy Bridge processors are going to run, unless you are doing some kind of server that has thousands and thousands of concurrent threads, the desktop turbo boost processor will probably edge it out.
Perhaps it would make the most sense to have a MacPro with normal Ivy Bridge processors at around the $1500 - $2000 range, and the very specific people who need 12 cores in a workstation can pay $6000+ for their Xeon class processors.
Just reiterating here, I'm not saying the form factor doesn't have a place. Just that the speed of desktop class CPUs are now making dual processor workstations seem irrelevant.
I don't believe I've ever said that the MP doesn't make enough money for Apple. I'm saying I don't know. If the premise from the original story is correct, then it's irrelevant how slow somebody's rendering gets and how great an improved MP would be for them, because that's not the sole basis for Apple's decisions. It's also irrelevant that an iMac can't do everything the MP can - if the MP is sub-optimally profitable in the short- and long-terms then it's reasonable for Apple to cease production or reform their computing lineup. It doesn't matter how bad this makes people feel or what it does to their workflow, because again, that's not what drives Apple's decisions. It has nothing to do with whether I think the MP is useful or not.
So - if someone wants to argue that the MP is profitable for Apple (or could be) - go for it. If they want to blab about how the iMac is only useful for their secretary and they can't process their video on their laptop they are missing the point.
They should not kill this line. All great companies have niche products at the top of the line that don't necessarily generate great profits. The purpose of those products is to set the tone and perceived quality for the rest of the products.
In the photography world, Nikon and Canon don't necessarily sell a lot of their top of the line bodies that retail for about $7000 without lenses. But the quality and function set "rubs off" on the rest of the line. Mercedes and BMW do the same thing. Their reputations are based on the top of their lines, not the bottom.
If Apple doesn't want the Mac line to be once again perceived as a "toy", as it was when first released in 1984 (regardless of the reality), they need to keep high end machines that can be used by developers and other power users at the top of the line.
In the photography world, Nikon and Canon don't necessarily sell a lot of their top of the line bodies that retail for about $7000 without lenses. But the quality and function set "rubs off" on the rest of the line. Mercedes and BMW do the same thing. Their reputations are based on the top of their lines, not the bottom.
If Apple doesn't want the Mac line to be once again perceived as a "toy", as it was when first released in 1984 (regardless of the reality), they need to keep high end machines that can be used by developers and other power users at the top of the line.
I agree there is a need for 2-10x the compute capacity for some applications, such as audio servers and broadcast TV servers. I would hope Apple comes out with a high end MP which has 4 blade servers so you can have 4 x 2 x top of the line processors. A couple of more pci slots would be welcome but storage could be done better with a single external box.
Apple has great clustering software for many CPU apps, and great server software for distributed apps. There are even third party GPU clustering apps on vertical market systems for science controllable from OSX.
There needs to be high end compute power from Apple proper. The fact it is increasingly a niche market means the meme of BTO only and ship direct or to a store on demand is a good model for sales. It makes sales more direct and more aligned to demand thus lowering costs and increasing margins, which are the basis for offering any product to begin with.
Rocketman
Apple has great clustering software for many CPU apps, and great server software for distributed apps. There are even third party GPU clustering apps on vertical market systems for science controllable from OSX.
There needs to be high end compute power from Apple proper. The fact it is increasingly a niche market means the meme of BTO only and ship direct or to a store on demand is a good model for sales. It makes sales more direct and more aligned to demand thus lowering costs and increasing margins, which are the basis for offering any product to begin with.
Rocketman
You wouldn't see significantly increased I/O on a thunderbolt equipped case if its still a spinning HD. You need to at least be in RAID to see any real difference.
Luckily, an imac + thunderbolt RAID is still probably more cost effective than a mac pro with comparable storage.