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Thats funny, because everything I say comes from real world experience building and maintaining PCs for more than a decade now. I won't even touch that immature child like friends remark :rolleyes:

What was it you said you did for a living again? I forgot. Serious question, because I'd like to know what professional background you have, to back up your claims. I don't want to know where or what company, a simple job title or field would suffice.

Mosx said:
The funny thing is that when people are provided with the truth on this forum, they ask for proof

Yeah, that is funny. People asking for proof to back up claims. ;)

Age insult? No. Pointing out of facts? Yes. If you read it as anything other than a pointing out of facts then that was of your own doing and comprehension and not how it was meant or written as.

For something to be a fact, it needs to have proof behind it. Until then, it's a theory, or an opinion. I think why you tend to ruffle feathers here, my dear friend Mosx, is because you state things as fact, truth, etc., but then provide only your experience as proof to that "truth" or "fact". I think if you stated it as your opinion (in your experience, of course), people wouldn't get so agitated.

Just a friendly suggestion. :D

EDIT -- Combine Posts

Here's an interesting read that pretty much sums up USB2.0 vs. FW400:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire#Comparison_to_USB

Wikipedia said:
Although high-speed USB 2.0 nominally runs at a higher signaling rate (480 Mbit/s) than FireWire 400, data transfers over S400 FireWire interfaces generally outperform similar transfers over USB 2.0 interfaces. Typical USB PC-hosts rarely exceed sustained transfers of 280 Mbit/s, with 240 Mbit/s being more typical. This is likely due to USB's reliance on the host-processor to manage low-level USB protocol, whereas FireWire delegates the same tasks to the interface hardware. For example, the FireWire host interface supports memory-mapped devices, which allows high-level protocols to run without loading the host CPU with interrupts and buffer-copy operations.[4] Besides throughput, other differences are that it uses simpler bus networking, provides more power over the chain, more reliable data transfer, and uses less CPU resources.[23]

FireWire 800 is substantially faster than Hi-Speed USB.[24]

I'm assuming by earlier posts of yours, Mosx, that Wikipedia is sufficient, given your use of it?

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say firewire is dead (quite yet, anyway), in terms of video.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct

Interestingly enough, the HV30 requires FW for DV transfer, however the HV40 replacing it (while still writing to DV tape) uses USB, it appears. So perhaps the writing is on the wall for consumer-based video and FW.

The Red 4K camera does use USB2.0 though, and that's clearly not an amateur camera. It's designed to be used on a Mac with FCP too

http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow/

So it'll be interesting to see how things pan out. I'm not too terribly concerned about FW going away, especially after 3 comes out. wireless looks pretty cool too.

Unfortunately audio interface companies have been slow on the up-take, as companies like Apogee and RME are still doing mostly FW interfaces. I think the concern there is not so much the bandwidth of the device, but the latency involved with USB, since it requires interaction with the CPU. That being said I don't have any issues with my USB stuff, and don't really get that lower of a latency with my FW stuff.
 
As I said, I've used my glossy displays in every type of environment and I have yet to experience any type of "glare".
Im not surprised – glare only manifest itself around brightness... ;)

Well, why did you buy a camcorder that was Firewire based? Don't try to tell me that "miniDV requires Firewire" like some posters have, when its not even part of the spec. There are more USB based cameras than Firewire.
Because there are people who simply aim for the best, like the new Sony FX1000 top of the line consumer model. Those cheap entry level AVCHD USB camcorders you mentioned don't meet very high standards, regardless of how many have been sold!

Go look at Amazon's top 100 seller list for video cameras. All but about a dozen are USB based. Firewire is dead for video.
The Amazon bestseller list says a lot more about people's needs and budget limitations, than about the state of the art of technology.

If audio professionals are relying on Apple notebooks and OS X to make music, then they fail at their jobs.
Yet they go on winning dozens of Grammys and Oscars for their work produced with Apple hardware and software??? LOL!

And as far as video goes, again, go to Amazon. Higher quality than DV cams are USB based.
Only the lowest end HD camcorders with the inferior and heavily compressed AVCHD codec work with USB.
Show me one HDV, Red, XDCAM or any other Pro HD format camera that works with USB (for video not stills). You'll find nothing but Firewire on these babies!
Because you can't buy them at Amazon doesn't mean these machines don't exist. Seriously, there is a huge world outside of the crap that Amazon has to offer!

Don't forget: Someone who settles for the standards of the average will never be heading for greatness!
 
iLIFE 09!!!

Why are you even debating this? It says on Apple's official site that iLife09 is included. Discussion closed.

Before I trade the perfectly fine MacBook I got on December 30th (JUST outside the two week period.... typical) I want to see some real-world tests. There's just too many unknowns about this new whitebook to make a blind purchase.
 
Why are you even debating this? It says on Apple's official site that iLife09 is included. Discussion closed.

Before I trade the perfectly fine MacBook I got on December 30th (JUST outside the two week period.... typical) I want to see some real-world tests. There's just too many unknowns about this new whitebook to make a blind purchase.

The difference between the GMA X3100 and nVidia 9400M is so vast that there's no need to debate that this revision is a huge step above the model you have.
 
Well, why did you buy a camcorder that was Firewire based? Don't try to tell me that "miniDV requires Firewire" like some posters have, when its not even part of the spec. There are more USB based cameras than Firewire.

Because there are people who simply aim for the best, like the new Sony FX1000 top of the line consumer model. Those cheap entry level AVCHD USB camcorders you mentioned don't meet very high standards, regardless of how many have been sold!

Can we end this particular topic yet? Whether or not FW is a part of the miniDV spec is irrelevant. Except for a few models that had MPEG-2 USB streaming and the one model that mosx recollects that transferred DV via USB, all miniDV/HDV camcorders require Firewire. Go back a few years and look at all of the available miniDV/HDV camcorders and they're all Firewire.

Who cares what the miniDV spec is when you can only get miniDV/HDV with firewire and nothing else.

ft
 
Can we end this particular topic yet? Whether or not FW is a part of the miniDV spec is irrelevant. Except for a few models that had MPEG-2 USB streaming and the one model that mosx recollects that transferred DV via USB, all miniDV/HDV camcorders require Firewire. Go back a few years and look at all of the available miniDV/HDV camcorders and they're all Firewire.

Who cares what the miniDV spec is when you can only get miniDV/HDV with firewire and nothing else.

ft

Before getting into computers, I worked in a camera shop, and was around for the very beginning of DV cams. Not one model that we ever carried transfered DV data over USB. Doesn't make it apart of the spec, but they just didn't exist from Sony, Panasonic, and Canon. The first minidV based cam that I've seen to do that is the just released Canon HV30.

Anyway it is a dumb argument, because FireWire (especially 800) is still very much relevant for the time being. So I agree with you. :)
 
Before getting into computers, I worked in a camera shop, and was around for the very beginning of DV cams. Not one model that we ever carried transfered DV data over USB. Doesn't make it apart of the spec, but they just didn't exist from Sony, Panasonic, and Canon. The first minidV based cam that I've seen to do that is the just released Canon HV30.

Anyway it is a dumb argument, because FireWire (especially 800) is still very much relevant for the time being. So I agree with you. :)

Wait ... are you saying the Canon HV30 can transfer DV/HDV over the USB connection? If so, that may be the camera I end up getting. Or did I mis-read your post?

ft
 
Wait ... are you saying the Canon HV30 can transfer DV/HDV over the USB connection? If so, that may be the camera I end up getting. Or did I mis-read your post?

ft

You didn't misread it, but I made a mistake the HV40 appears to transfer DV over USB......the HV30 has been around for awhile, and that goes over FW. You'll definitely want to research it a bit further before buying though, because Canon's site isn't really specific. Probably downloading the manual will do.
 
This does make me reconsider going for the aluminum one now... for what? The nice new unibody is the only real reason i can think of? :confused:

-The really nice glass multi-touch trackpad
-The "faster" (debatable, early tests show very little gains) DDR3 Ram
-Easier to remove and replace the battery/HD/Ram
-Backlit Keyboard on the 2.4GHz model
-Mini Display Port (for now it mean nothing, but in a few years it's going to be a pretty much standard)
-More eco-friendly (not completely, the manufacturing still suck): Consume less energy and is very recyclable.

That's what I can think off. But it's a 300 jump in price for almost all this features, 600$ for a faster processor and backlit keyboard. Ask yourself: Do you need this? Does it worth if for you?
 
-Easier to remove and replace the battery/HD/Ram

WOW! I can't imagine any laptop being any easier to replace the battery, HDD, and RAM than the original white/black Macbooks. For the uniMBs to be easier, it must do it for you automatically! ;)
 
WOW! I can't imagine any laptop being any easier to replace the battery, HDD, and RAM than the original white/black Macbooks. For the uniMBs to be easier, it must do it for you automatically! ;)

THe HDD and ram were kinda tricky to get too If i can remember. On the unibodies, you just remove the battery cover, the battery can be removed without anything else, while the HDD need you to remove a single screw, and the ram require you remove the back panel, which is around 8 screws.
 
Update cycles

That's what I can think off. But it's a 300 jump in price for almost all this features, 600$ for a faster processor and backlit keyboard. Ask yourself: Do you need this? Does it worth if for you?
The aluminum notebooks are likely to be updated in the spring. I wonder if the white MacBook will also be updated then, or will be left until a later date (to increase the gap between it and the $1299 MacBook).
 
unibody, better screen, new touchpad.

Unibody means zero to function and on the new 17" MBP it means you can't change the battery for some stupid reason. The 'better' screen is also way more reflective (than even the previous generation 'glossy' screen with NO option to have matte) and some of us think the black border is way uglier. The new touchpad is a nightmare, IMO. I prefer having a separate button that's easy to push. But then I bought a pre-October type brand new MBP in October for a HUGE discount ($1440) when the new models came out and got a matte screen, two Firewire ports and a full size DVI port for almost $600 less than the newer models which added nothing USEFUL but an 8% faster GPU in return, but took away all the former good things about the MBP. My advice to this guy is grab the new white Macbook and run before they pull it too and you're stuck with only the option of the new nightmare that is the new overpriced under featured reflective MIRROR that is the new uni-body Macbooks (which don't have ANY firewire except on the Pro line). Even many cheap Dell notebooks (starting at $599!!) still have Firewire! Apple, who INVENTED Firewire have embarrassed themselves by starting to abandon their own technology when even Dell does in notebooks that cost nearly HALF the price. Shame on Apple for being cheap and greedy and not listening to their customers (as usual).
 
The aluminum notebooks are likely to be updated in the spring. I wonder if the white MacBook will also be updated then, or will be left until a later date (to increase the gap between it and the $1299 MacBook).

Probably the latter. Apple will want to hype sales of the aluminums, then when that drops off they can pick up some more on the white model. Actually I'm surprised the whitebook is still being updated. I had expected that Apple was just using it to clear out parts inventory, but it must have generated some decent sales figures.

The new touchpad is a nightmare, IMO. I prefer having a separate button that's easy to push.

I don't like the new trackpad either. For me the mouse moves in a jerky fashion, and under Windows it's a disaster.

What I wanted was just a CPU/graphics update to the Blackbook and I still wish Apple had just done that.
 
Unibody means zero to function and on the new 17" MBP it means you can't change the battery for some stupid reason. The 'better' screen is also way more reflective (than even the previous generation 'glossy' screen with NO option to have matte) and some of us think the black border is way uglier. The new touchpad is a nightmare, IMO. I prefer having a separate button that's easy to push. But then I bought a pre-October type brand new MBP in October for a HUGE discount ($1440) when the new models came out and got a matte screen, two Firewire ports and a full size DVI port for almost $600 less than the newer models which added nothing USEFUL but an 8% faster GPU in return, but took away all the former good things about the MBP. My advice to this guy is grab the new white Macbook and run before they pull it too and you're stuck with only the option of the new nightmare that is the new overpriced under featured reflective MIRROR that is the new uni-body Macbooks (which don't have ANY firewire except on the Pro line). Even many cheap Dell notebooks (starting at $599!!) still have Firewire! Apple, who INVENTED Firewire have embarrassed themselves by starting to abandon their own technology when even Dell does in notebooks that cost nearly HALF the price. Shame on Apple for being cheap and greedy and not listening to their customers (as usual).

Spoken like someone who has never spent more than a day with a new unibody MBP/MB. ;)
 
Unibody means zero to function and on the new 17" MBP it means you can't change the battery for some stupid reason. The 'better' screen is also way more reflective (than even the previous generation 'glossy' screen with NO option to have matte) and some of us think the black border is way uglier. The new touchpad is a nightmare, IMO. I prefer having a separate button that's easy to push. But then I bought a pre-October type brand new MBP in October for a HUGE discount ($1440) when the new models came out and got a matte screen, two Firewire ports and a full size DVI port for almost $600 less than the newer models which added nothing USEFUL but an 8% faster GPU in return, but took away all the former good things about the MBP. My advice to this guy is grab the new white Macbook and run before they pull it too and you're stuck with only the option of the new nightmare that is the new overpriced under featured reflective MIRROR that is the new uni-body Macbooks (which don't have ANY firewire except on the Pro line). Even many cheap Dell notebooks (starting at $599!!) still have Firewire! Apple, who INVENTED Firewire have embarrassed themselves by starting to abandon their own technology when even Dell does in notebooks that cost nearly HALF the price. Shame on Apple for being cheap and greedy and not listening to their customers (as usual).

Unibody means it is more rigid and strong. It also means it is more recyclable and environmentally friendly.

On the 17" model you cant change the battery because it is a new design that gives twice the run time and 3 times the lifespan of normal batteries.

The better screen is 'better' because it uses a LED backlight to make it more bright and uniform.

The new touchpad is a huge improvement over the old.

FW didnt fit in the new Macbooks. Look at the interior of one sometime. Would you trade a USB port for it? Id rather have 2 USB and let users who need FW buy a Pro machine.
 
FW didnt fit in the new Macbooks. Look at the interior of one sometime. Would you trade a USB port for it? Id rather have 2 USB and let users who need FW buy a Pro machine.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. :) Firewire is not in the new MacBooks because Apple planned for it not to be there. If Apple wanted it to be there Apple would have made space for it like they did in the original MacBook. Your statement that you would prefer those who need Firewire buy a pro machine echos Apple's idea on the matter.

The Firewire debate is getting old, but I will not let it rest when someones says "there's no room for Firewire."
 
Unibody means it is more rigid and strong. It also means it is more recyclable and environmentally friendly.

Like I said, zero functional improvement. Is that worth losing Firewire? Not to me an many others. They should have spent a little more time designing the thing.

On the 17" model you cant change the battery because it is a new design that gives twice the run time and 3 times the lifespan of normal batteries.

What does the new battery life have to do with having ACCESS to the battery? NOTHING. Apple simply chose to not include an access cover, probably to both save a few bucks and more importantly so like with the iPhone and iPod Touch so they can milk you for more money in a few years. I mean who cares if you NEED a 2nd battery while traveling and cannot use it. And frankly, when was the last time ANYONE got the rated battery life out of their Macbook? My MBP is rated for 5+ hours and I'm lucky to get 2.5 hours out of it with normal use (I'm not exactly playing 3D games or anything while on battery).

The better screen is 'better' because it uses a LED backlight to make it more bright and uniform.

You could have fooled me. Ever since Apple switched to LED they've have a LOT more problems with uneveness and screen "yellowing". I got lucky with my MBP that it does not have the yellowing issue. Besides, as my MBP comment indicates, they switched to LED long before "unibody" so the two aren't directly related and are therefore separate issues.

The new touchpad is a huge improvement over the old.

How is that? Coating something with glass makes it better? (If that were true, the new screens would look BETTER, not just more reflective). Having to push down harder on the pad itself instead of having a separate button is somehow better? Maybe YOU like it better, but it sounds like propaganda to me. I like my MBP's pad just fine. I only wish it had a dedicated 2nd button. Two finger + button <> the utility of a dedicated 2nd button, IMO. Frankly, I'd like a 3rd button off to the side as well (I use it regularly on my desktop Macs and PC to open new tabs in both Safari and Firefox and miss it when using the trackpad. Maybe if Apple would let users create their own shortcuts, it wouldn't be such an issue.

FW didnt fit in the new Macbooks. Look at the interior of one sometime.

So you're saying because Apple designers did not design their new Macbook to have room for Firewire that is somehow a valid excuse for not having it? You might as well say look at the inside of the iPhone and notice how there's no room for Firewire. If they had designed it to have Firewire, it would have had room. It's just that simple. Your logic is flawed. Like I said, even cheap Dells notebooks have Firewire. Apple, the inventor of Firewire abandoning it on their own products might as well being saying we were wrong all along. Viva La USB 2.0 and its CPU grabbing latency nature.


Would you trade a USB port for it? Id rather have 2 USB and let users who need FW buy a Pro machine.

Why is Firewire suddenly a "Pro" feature? Like I said twice now, a $599 Dell has Firewire on it so why doesn't a laptop that costs 2x as much have it from Apple? They've had it up until now so there is no valid excuse. It's Apple's attempt to push you to buy more than you need. It's the same reason why there is no mid-range desktop Mac. If you need more than a toy, you have to shell out $2400-2700 for a Mac Pro. There is no in-between. As for trading a USB port; I can always get a HUB for more USB ports, but I cannot create Firewire where there is none to begin with. If they included an expansion port on the regular Macbook (something cheap Dells always include as well), you could always at least add one, but that is apparently a $2k+ only feature once again.

I believe this sort of shoveling will eventually backfire on Apple. They need to provide true value for the dollar, not just count on Microsoft screwing up like they did with Vista to siphon off Windows users. Once Microsoft gets their game back together (and all indications are that Windows7 will do exactly that), this method will no longer work for Apple. The real problem is that Apple has no direct hardware competition. All their competition is hardware + OS and it's that monopoly on hardware FOR OS X that is allowing them to reak profits when almost all other companies are losing money faster than you can say recession.
 
Like I said, zero functional improvement. Is that worth losing Firewire? Not to me an many others. They should have spent a little more time designing the thing.

It is stronger. That is an improvement.

What does the new battery life have to do with having ACCESS to the battery? NOTHING. Apple simply chose to not include an access cover, probably to both save a few bucks and more importantly so like with the iPhone and iPod Touch so they can milk you for more money in a few years. I mean who cares if you NEED a 2nd battery while traveling and cannot use it. And frankly, when was the last time ANYONE got the rated battery life out of their Macbook? My MBP is rated for 5+ hours and I'm lucky to get 2.5 hours out of it with normal use (I'm not exactly playing 3D games or anything while on battery).

If you learned a little about how Apple managed to double the run time of the battery and about LiPo cells you would know why you cant have access to it. Long story short: not putting the cells in rigid plastic housing like removable batteries have saves volume that can be filled with more cells. Without that housing the cells are not safe for customers to handle.

You dont need a second battery anymore, because it lasts twice as long. If that isnt enough I suggest buying an airline power adapter and not trying to carry a sack full of batteries through security.

I get very similar battery life to my MBA's rated time.


You could have fooled me. Ever since Apple switched to LED they've have a LOT more problems with uneveness and screen "yellowing". I got lucky with my MBP that it does not have the yellowing issue. Besides, as my MBP comment indicates, they switched to LED long before "unibody" so the two aren't directly related and are therefore separate issues.

Got any proof that this is a wide spread issue and not the usual forum whining?

How is that? Coating something with glass makes it better? (If that were true, the new screens would look BETTER, not just more reflective). Having to push down harder on the pad itself instead of having a separate button is somehow better? Maybe YOU like it better, but it sounds like propaganda to me. I like my MBP's pad just fine. I only wish it had a dedicated 2nd button. Two finger + button <> the utility of a dedicated 2nd button, IMO. Frankly, I'd like a 3rd button off to the side as well (I use it regularly on my desktop Macs and PC to open new tabs in both Safari and Firefox and miss it when using the trackpad. Maybe if Apple would let users create their own shortcuts, it wouldn't be such an issue.

So you want a 3 button mouse and hate everything Apple has done in the last year? Why dont you have a dell then?

The feel of the glass trackpad is better. The no button design also feels more sturdy and eliminates the rickety, clicky feel of the button.


So you're saying because Apple designers did not design their new Macbook to have room for Firewire that is somehow a valid excuse for not having it? You might as well say look at the inside of the iPhone and notice how there's no room for Firewire. If they had designed it to have Firewire, it would have had room. It's just that simple. Your logic is flawed. Like I said, even cheap Dells notebooks have Firewire. Apple, the inventor of Firewire abandoning it on their own products might as well being saying we were wrong all along. Viva La USB 2.0 and its CPU grabbing latency nature.


Look at the inside of a Macbook. Understand that while it is possible to fit just about anything in a laptop, designs have tradeoffs and goals. Compromises need to be made. Apple could not have made the Macbook the way that they wanted with FW. No amount of tears will change that. They have goals other then cramming the maximum number of ports into the design and bullet points on the spec sheet. Other companies might feel differently. As a consumer you get to choose where to buy.


Why is Firewire suddenly a "Pro" feature? Like I said twice now, a $599 Dell has Firewire on it so why doesn't a laptop that costs 2x as much have it from Apple? They've had it up until now so there is no valid excuse. It's Apple's attempt to push you to buy more than you need. It's the same reason why there is no mid-range desktop Mac. If you need more than a toy, you have to shell out $2400-2700 for a Mac Pro. There is no in-between. As for trading a USB port; I can always get a HUB for more USB ports, but I cannot create Firewire where there is none to begin with. If they included an expansion port on the regular Macbook (something cheap Dells always include as well), you could always at least add one, but that is apparently a $2k+ only feature once again.

It is a pro feature because most new consumer devices dont use FW.

The Mac Pro is competitively priced with other Pro workstations.

Even in its current antique form the Mini is enough for the vast majority of users. Those that need more power would be wise to look into a iMac, not a pro workstation that isnt aimed them.


I believe this sort of shoveling will eventually backfire on Apple. They need to provide true value for the dollar, not just count on Microsoft screwing up like they did with Vista to siphon off Windows users. Once Microsoft gets their game back together (and all indications are that Windows7 will do exactly that), this method will no longer work for Apple. The real problem is that Apple has no direct hardware competition. All their competition is hardware + OS and it's that monopoly on hardware FOR OS X that is allowing them to reak profits when almost all other companies are losing money faster than you can say recession.


Yeah, Apple is clearly doing pretty badly. Maybe if they were more like Dell they would finally be successful. :rolleyes: Who cares if they have $25billion in the bank and are dominating all non netbook laptop sales metrics and maintaining growth everywhere else despite the economic times right? You clearly know better then they do right?

You have a real victim complex, Apple is making decisions based on their goals. They arnt out to get you. If you dont like the direction they are heading you should buy elsewhere. Clearly the majority of consumers are very happy with Apple and their direction.
 
You have a real victim complex, Apple is making decisions based on their goals. They arnt out to get you. If you dont like the direction they are heading you should buy elsewhere. Clearly the majority of consumers are very happy with Apple and their direction.

Ah, the "conform without question or leave the platform because you aren't good enough for it" card that comes after "Apple did it, so it must be better because Apple doesn't make mistakes" So predictible from your kind. Personally I would hope they never take your advice, the Mac will be a pretty lonely place when they do.
 
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