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What is "$"? In countries that don't have VAT, obviously it is also included as it doesn't exist and is therefore 0.

Are you so ignorant that you think Apple is advertising prices in US USD prices allover the world? Quite ridiculous.

"There are people on the first page of the discussion asking what VAT is" – So??
Instead of insulting please show me a place in the US or the entire world ( by saying entire world I've broadened your options to give to a helping hand) where you can get the iPhone SE at $399.99 final price. VAT is not something magical or unique. VAT is a tax. In the US people pay taxes too when they buy something. Even it it's called something else and the money is used in a different way, people are still paying taxes when they buy an iPhone.

And yes, there are prices shown without VAT in Europe for all sorts of goods. It's not included. Just because you don't know or the stores you use show prices with VAT doesn't meant they do not exist.
 
In the entire EU, all shops that primarily target consumers - not B2B - MUST include VAT in their pricing. Many countries in Africa do the same. You won't find prices without VAT. Go to any European Apple store and you will see.
I just checked my purchase documents for an iPad Air 3 bought from an Apple official reseller and the price is mentioned both with and without VAT.
 
I just checked my purchase documents for an iPad Air 3 bought from an Apple official reseller and the price is mentioned both with and without VAT.

yes, because VAT is always specified on an invoice on a separate line item. But when you look at prices on for example the Apple website they are VAT inclusive - you only see the VAT amount when you check out. And this applies to all webshops.

And is very different from the US.
 
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This whole sub-thread arose because one poster said that in his country, they pay 18% VAT and “don’t get sh*t from the government.” This particular train of replies has been made in that context.

Of course services cost money; no one disputes that. The only question is what value you (both you individually and your society as a whole) get for your money. If you want educated people in your society, someone has to pay for that. If you want healthy people in your society, someone has to pay for that. Duh.

Do you want a society where only a wealthy elite can afford a university education? Or where people have to borrow so much to pay for one that all their disposable income after college goes to paying off debt, instead of bolstering the economy by spending and supporting essential public services by paying sales tax?

Do you want a society where people are afraid to quit jobs they aren’t very good at to look for work for which they’re better suited because they’re afraid they’ll lose their health insurance?

Perhaps you do. But that’s the argument we’re having, not whether services cost money to provide.
You may be having that argument but I most certainly was not. It really irks me when people say that services are free. If they truly believe that then they must fall in the large group who are net beneficiaries opposed to contributors.

And no I don’t want a society where people just quit their job when they feel like it without being able to support themselves. I want a society where people take personal responsibility for their actions. In such a way that those who truly need a safety net can rely on it, and then we could even increase the support for that group. For example would it not be great to provide sag 70% of the average income over the last four years did a maximum of say 18 months when you lose your job through redundancy. That way there is no race to the bottom and should have no urgent need to sell your house etc. But. A big cliff to the absolute minimum after that period. People got to put some effort in and take responsibility.

And with education it is the same. There are many more systems besides giving it fully free or self funded. Also we don’t want a society where everyone has gone to university. That just doesn’t make any sense. For example why not give university students a loan, a loan they only have to pay back when they are actually earning above a certain amount, a loan that is interest free. That way it becomes much more like an investment.



Instead of insulting please show me a place in the US or the entire world ( by saying entire world I've broadened your options to give to a helping hand) where you can get the iPhone SE at $399.99 final price. VAT is not something magical or unique. VAT is a tax. In the US people pay taxes too when they buy something. Even it it's called something else and the money is used in a different way, people are still paying taxes when they buy an iPhone.

And yes, there are prices shown without VAT in Europe for all sorts of goods. It's not included. Just because you don't know or the stores you use show prices with VAT doesn't meant they do not exist.
in the US it is allowed to state/market the price without tax included. Hence it is perfectly normal for Apple to state such a price in US Dollars.

In most VAT countries, definitely in Europe, that would be illegal. Yes it is illegal to market a product at a VAT exclusive price. Hence your original question was an invalid question. This was explained to you several times now, yet you seem to ignore it on purpose.

I just checked my purchase documents for an iPad Air 3 bought from an Apple official reseller and the price is mentioned both with and without VAT.
Entirely normal, that is the structure of a proper VAT invoice. It should have the VAT exclusive price on it. And if there were multiple items which attracts different VAT rates then you would see that split out as well. It has been like that for many decades.

And still that is no argument against your original point since products for consumers must be priced and marketed VAT inclusive. Which it did ;)
 
Free at the point of use, sure. But it’s not free at all. Us net contributors are paying an obscene amount of money for that to be “free” ;)

Of course nothing is free. Someone is paying. But lets talk students again. How many talented kids in the US don't even think about doing medicine or engineering because they know they will never be able to pay for the college? If the college is "free" the whole society benefits. Those kids become doctors and pay it back with their taxes and they will pay way more taxes than what they would pay if they would have stayed out of college and would have been flipping burgers for life. And even that guy that yells "why should my taxes pay someones education" may benefit one day if the kid that became a doc saves his live in the ER. So "free" stuff (payed by taxes from the society for the society) is a good thing. ;)
 
in the US it is allowed to state/market the price without tax included. Hence it is perfectly normal for Apple to state such a price in US Dollars.


And still that is no argument against your original point since products for consumers must be priced and marketed VAT inclusive. Which it did ;)

I never said Apple was braking the law and my original point had nothing to do with VAT. It had to do with the Apple double standard when it comes to fees and taxes that many seem to defend fiercely.
 
I never said Apple was braking the law and my original point had nothing to do with VAT. It had to do with the Apple double standard when it comes to fees and taxes that many seem to defend fiercely.
As explained before. Apple is targeting businesses who are selling on the App Store. When you target businesses the rules are different and you have make that clear.

It is not comparable with targeting consumers at all.
[automerge]1599122819[/automerge]
Of course nothing is free. Someone is paying. But lets talk students again. How many talented kids in the US don't even think about doing medicine or engineering because they know they will never be able to pay for the college? If the college is "free" the whole society benefits. Those kids become doctors and pay it back with their taxes and they will pay way more taxes than what they would pay if they would have stayed out of college and would have been flipping burgers for life. And even that guy that yells "why should my taxes pay someones education" may benefit one day if the kid that became a doc saves his live in the ER. So "free" stuff (payed by taxes from the society for the society) is a good thing. ;)
As you may have read I’m not disagreeing in principle. I’ve highlighted that there can be middle ground between the extremes of fully self funded vs free of charge.
 
What's sneaky is when I buy something advertised as $10 and have to pay $11. Or with flights, $50 really means $90.
It’s not sneaky. It’s because in the US the sales tax isn’t set on a nationwide scale as the VAT is in other countries. Instead, each state decides whether or not to have a sales tax and sets its own tax rate. Thus, Apple can’t publish prices on their US website with tax included but rather has to add it once a purchase is made depending on where the customer is located. Nonetheless, they do always explicitly warn that the price advertised does not include tax.
 
In the entire EU, all shops that primarily target consumers - not B2B - MUST include VAT in their pricing. Many countries in Africa do the same. You won't find prices without VAT. Go to any European Apple store and you will see.
in Mexico too, but that’s because in all these countries the VAT is a national tax. In the US, however, they don’t have that. Instead, the US sales tax is a state tax, where each state decides whether or not to have it and sets its own tax rate. Thus, it’s very difficult or perhaps impossible to publish prices on a US website with tax included, since the amount of tax varies depending on the customer’s location where they are placing their order from.
 
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Instead of insulting please show me a place in the US or the entire world ( by saying entire world I've broadened your options to give to a helping hand) where you can get the iPhone SE at $399.99 final price. VAT is not something magical or unique. VAT is a tax. In the US people pay taxes too when they buy something. Even it it's called something else and the money is used in a different way, people are still paying taxes when they buy an iPhone.

And yes, there are prices shown without VAT in Europe for all sorts of goods. It's not included. Just because you don't know or the stores you use show prices with VAT doesn't meant they do not exist.
The state of Delaware in the US would be a great example. They don’t have to pay a sales tax there, so anyone who purchases an iPhone SE in Delaware would pay 399.99 final price. And it’s not the only state in the US without a sales tax, there are a few others.
 
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It’s not sneaky. It’s because in the US the sales tax isn’t set on a nationwide scale as the VAT is in other countries. Instead, each state decides whether or not to have a sales tax and sets its own tax rate. Thus, Apple can’t publish prices on their US website with tax included but rather has to add it once a purchase is made depending on where the customer is located. Nonetheless, they do always explicitly warn that the price advertised does not include tax.
I mean when you're buying somewhere in-person, or you're on a retail site that knows your location (many of them ask upfront).
 
That’s an argument against overly centralized government, not against all government at all levels. I would never argue that zoning or traffic planning decisions for, say, Los Angeles should be made in Washington D.C.

I am glad that we have public fire services, and I’d much prefer single-payer health care or a National Health Service to the grotesquely inefficient health care morass we have in the US today. We pay vastly more money for health care in the US than in the social democracies of western Europe, and yet our health outcomes are not that much better. How is that more efficient?
I never made an argument that government shouldn't be involved in anything, rather that they are not efficient at running anything. Then I pointed out that government (yes, especially central) should only be doing a few basic things - at least as established with the US federalism design.

Then you pivot from saying that my argument was only against centralized government (as if state and local government can't possible get "big") to advocating nationalized health care. Can't really get any "bigger" than that. But I long for the days when some bureaucrat gets to make critical health decisions in my life. Ever think that the reason our current system is so inefficient is because of the government sticking its nose in it? It's the same with higher education. Because of the government subsidy model, costs have spiraled. And what do we get for it? Demands for what is taught and how and social engineered classrooms and quotas and on and on.

Then you’ve been lucky. My experience working in larger companies was that they were far from efficient, and that the employees and mid-level managers were more concerned with having a comfortable, stress-free environment than with maximizing the return on their company’s shareholders’ investment.

Perhaps you’ve never read the comic strip Dilbert. It’s enduring popularity is testament to its verisimilitude, and it’s about working in the private tech sector, not in government. A common refrain from readers is that Scott Adams must have spies in their companies, because the absurd inefficiencies he so humorously lampoons are uncannily familiar.
Yes, but the good thing is the free market takes care of those slugs. I didn't say they didn't exist, but there's a mechanism for weeding them out. See Sears Roebuck, Kodak, Blockbuster Video, Lehman Brothers, Pan Am... Who takes care of unelected government bureaucracies?

No, because the NASA of the 1960s never partnered with SpaceX. I said nothing about the NASA of later decades.

The NASA of the 1960s did partner with a vast panoply of private enterprise, but the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs were all run by the government.

That’s a fair point, but remember that the whole goal of the space race was not just getting to the moon, but beating the Soviets there. Doing it slower but more cost-effectively would not have demonstrated the superiority of the American way.
You said, "do you really think any private company, or even consortium of companies, would have gotten us to the moon more efficiently than the NASA of the 1960s?" You didn't say could any private company spend a sh-tload of other people's money and get to the moon. You said MORE EFFICIENTLY. That is what I originally and continue to argue - efficiency!
 
I mean when you're buying somewhere in-person, or you're on a retail site that knows your location (many of them ask upfront).
Well they still always have some kind of warning that the prices on the tags are without sales tax. At least they do put ‘$X.XX + tax’ on the price tag, so there really is no tricking or dishonesty there. You still know you’ll pay a bit more when you get to the register. Apple’s US website warns you of the tax ahead of time too, as soon as you put the items in your cart. So you’re always free not to buy immediately if you hadn’t considered the tax in your budget. Plus, sales tax rates in the US are much lower than VAT rates in most other countries.
 
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I never made an argument that government shouldn't be involved in anything, rather that they are not efficient at running anything....

Then you pivot from saying that my argument was only against centralized government (as if state and local government can't possible get "big") to advocating nationalized health care. Can't really get any "bigger" than that.
You seem to have overlooked the example I provided of the UK’s National Health Service, which in fact is highly decentralized. Yes, it’s a big world, with a lot of people in it. My own state alone, California, has 40 million people, so its government is sizable, but we also devolve a great deal of political power to the counties, and they to cities. Since you seemed to refer approvingly to our federal system, I’m guessing you agree that this is the best way we’ve figured out so far to keep government responsible and as efficient as we can.

But of course governments, like all organizations, can become bloated and inefficient, and of course we should resist that. Conversely, governments, just like companies, can be hobbled by over-zealous cost-cutting that leaves them understaffed and inefficient.

Debating just how to solve any particular problem efficiently is worthwhile and necessary, but I don’t think that such debate is well served by making dogmatic pronouncements like “there is one thing for certain, government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.”
But I long for the days when some bureaucrat gets to make critical health decisions in my life.
For the many millions of Americans who purchase their health insurance from Health Maintenance Organizations, those days are already here. If you’re insured by an HMO, you can be assured that an administrator who has no medical training whatsoever will be making critical decisions about your medical care, e.g. what tests, treatments, and procedures you’re entitled to receive. What’s more, that administrator might work two or three thousand miles away.

So given the choice, whom would you rather have making those critical health decisions: a bureaucrat who is ultimately responsible to your elected government, or an administrator who is ultimately responsible only to his company’s shareholders?
Yes, but the good thing is the free market takes care of those slugs. I didn't say they didn't exist, but there's a mechanism for weeding them out.... Who takes care of unelected government bureaucracies?
Elected governments, who are ultimately responsible to their electors, take care of their bureaucracies.

They don’t always do a terribly good job of it. Sometimes they allow the bureaucracy to balloon; sometimes they kneecap it so that it can’t do its job efficiently (perhaps leading people like you conclude that “government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.”)

But at least you have a chance to influence your bureaucracy through the exercise of your democratic political power. Unless you hold shares in your HMO, you have no chance to influence their decisions except through government regulation.

Even if you do own shares in your HMO, in the US every publicly-traded company has a fiduciary responsibility under law to maximize the return on its shareholders’ investment. Ultimately, every critical decision your HMO administrator makes boils down to just one question: which standard of patient care will make the most money for the health insurance company?

In the US, at least in theory, the federal government was constituted expressly

…to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity…​

In contrast, for-profit companies are constituted for the express purpose of making money for their shareholders. If a for-profit company is providing your health care (and almost all health care in the US is now for profit), your welfare is ultimately of interest to them only insofar as it serves their profit.

That is the very heart and soul of our capitalist system, and for some things it works great! (I can’t imagine that a government department would have done a better job of developing personal computer hardware and software than did Apple, for example.) But I do think there are some things that could be done more efficiently by cutting out the profit motive, and health care is one of them.

(And efficiency aside, I also think there are some things that are worth doing even if their cost-effectiveness can’t easily be measured, such as education—which I agree is a mess in this country, patronage of the arts, scientific research, space exploration, and yes, even just taking care of our neighbors, because that’s what decent people do for each other. Who can best do those things? That’s a discussion well worth having, but for-profit companies aren’t always the answer.)
You said, "do you really think any private company, or even consortium of companies, would have gotten us to the moon more efficiently than the NASA of the 1960s?" You didn't say could any private company spend a sh-tload of other people's money and get to the moon. You said MORE EFFICIENTLY. That is what I originally and continue to argue - efficiency!
Yes, and I said “more efficiently” precisely because I was taking exception to your dogmatic pronouncement that “government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.” I thought it was understood that the goal of the space race was to beat the Soviets to the moon, and that it didn’t need to be explicitly stated. Apparently I was mistaken, so l’ll withdraw my question and rephrase it:

Do you really think that any private company, or even consortium of companies, would have gotten us to the moon before the Soviets more efficiently than the NASA of the 1960s?
The Apollo program was funded like crazy - more as a % of federal economy than the Manhattan Project.
That’s as may be, but it might be worth mentioning that the Manhattan Project was not the most expensive of the Second World War. The project to develop and produce the B-29 bomber was even more expensive, costing ~50% more of the public’s money than the Manhattan Project, and it was run by Boeing, a for-profit, privately owned company.
 
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And yes, there are prices shown without VAT in Europe for all sorts of goods. It's not included.
I am not insulting you, I am correcting you. Because what you say is just plain wrong. For products sold to consumers in the EU, the selling price must always be indicated as per Article 3(1) of consumer protection directive 98/6/EC, and the selling price must include all taxes including VAT, Article 2(a).
selling price shall mean the final price for a unit of the product, or a given quantity of the product, including VAT and all other taxes;
 
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In the US, however, they don’t have that. Instead, the US sales tax is a state tax, where each state decides whether or not to have it and sets its own tax rate.
EU member states have different VAT rates too. You'd just need to indicate which state (and sometimes district) you're from / have your goods delivered to, which you have to do anyway once you actually buy an item. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just saying if you want to do it it's technically just a UX issue. For example, when you're not logged in, prices could be shown without sales tax. For recurring customers prices could be shown based on their standard address.
 
You seem to have overlooked the example I provided of the UK’s National Health Service, which in fact is highly decentralized. Yes, it’s a big world, with a lot of people in it. My own state alone, California, has 40 million people, so its government is sizable, but we also devolve a great deal of political power to the counties, and they to cities. Since you seemed to refer approvingly to our federal system, I’m guessing you agree that this is the best way we’ve figured out so far to keep government responsible and as efficient as we can.

But of course governments, like all organizations, can become bloated and inefficient, and of course we should resist that. Conversely, governments, just like companies, can be hobbled by over-zealous cost-cutting that leaves them understaffed and inefficient.

Debating just how to solve any particular problem efficiently is worthwhile and necessary, but I don’t think that such debate is well served by making dogmatic pronouncements like “there is one thing for certain, government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.”

For the many millions of Americans who purchase their health insurance from Health Maintenance Organizations, those days are already here. If you’re insured by an HMO, you can be assured that an administrator who has no medical training whatsoever will be making critical decisions about your medical care, e.g. what tests, treatments, and procedures you’re entitled to receive. What’s more, that administrator might work two or three thousand miles away.

So given the choice, whom would you rather have making those critical health decisions: a bureaucrat who is ultimately responsible to your elected government, or an administrator who is ultimately responsible only to his company’s shareholders?

Elected governments, who are ultimately responsible to their electors, take care of their bureaucracies.

They don’t always do a terribly good job of it. Sometimes they allow the bureaucracy to balloon; sometimes they kneecap it so that it can’t do its job efficiently (perhaps leading people like you conclude that “government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.”)

But at least you have a chance to influence your bureaucracy through the exercise of your democratic political power. Unless you hold shares in your HMO, you have no chance to influence their decisions except through government regulation.

Even if you do own shares in your HMO, in the US every publicly-traded company has a fiduciary responsibility under law to maximize the return on its shareholders’ investment. Ultimately, every critical decision your HMO administrator makes boils down to just one question: which standard of patient care will make the most money for the health insurance company?

In the US, at least in theory, the federal government was constituted expressly

…to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity…​

In contrast, for-profit companies are constituted for the express purpose of making money for their shareholders. If a for-profit company is providing your health care (and almost all health care in the US is now for profit), your welfare is ultimately of interest to them only insofar as it serves their profit.

That is the very heart and soul of our capitalist system, and for some things it works great! (I can’t imagine that a government department would have done a better job of developing personal computer hardware and software than did Apple, for example.) But I do think there are some things that could be done more efficiently by cutting out the profit motive, and health care is one of them.

(And efficiency aside, I also think there are some things that are worth doing even if their cost-effectiveness can’t easily be measured, such as education—which I agree is a mess in this country, patronage of the arts, scientific research, space exploration, and yes, even just taking care of our neighbors, because that’s what decent people do for each other. Who can best do those things? That’s a discussion well worth having, but for-profit companies aren’t always the answer.)

Yes, and I said “more efficiently” precisely because I was taking exception to your dogmatic pronouncement that “government is not efficient at running ANYTHING.” I thought it was understood that the goal of the space race was to beat the Soviets to the moon, and that it didn’t need to be explicitly stated. Apparently I was mistaken, so l’ll withdraw my question and rephrase it:

Do you really think that any private company, or even consortium of companies, would have gotten us to the moon before the Soviets more efficiently than the NASA of the 1960s?

That’s as may be, but it might be worth mentioning that the Manhattan Project was not the most expensive of the Second World War. The project to develop and produce the B-29 bomber was even more expensive, costing ~50% more of the public’s money than the Manhattan Project, and it was run by Boeing, a for-profit, privately owned company.
Whilst the NHS had a lot of trusts, in this context it is nowhere near as decentralised as you make it out to be. And having worked at the department of health, it made rolling out national programmes highly inefficient as some trusts just aren’t as good as others or go their own way. It made it actually quite inefficient. Not just to administrate and rolling out funding. But even a postcode lottery for patients where they can get drugs if they live in the area covered but not where they are for example.

I really wouldn’t use it as an example of a good organisation. It requires so much reform, but as it is a political football and treated as sacred it will never happen. A real shame as it has a lot of potential.
 
Whilst the NHS had a lot of trusts, in this context it is nowhere near as decentralised as you make it out to be. And having worked at the department of health, it made rolling out national programmes highly inefficient as some trusts just aren’t as good as others or go their own way. It made it actually quite inefficient. Not just to administrate and rolling out funding. But even a postcode lottery for patients where they can get drugs if they live in the area covered but not where they are for example.

I really wouldn’t use it as an example of a good organisation. It requires so much reform, but as it is a political football and treated as sacred it will never happen. A real shame as it has a lot of potential.
That’s a shame, and I’m sorry to hear it.

Here in the US, our own health care system (if you can call it that) is also a political football, and while it’s hardly treated as sacred by anyone here, the idea of *gasp* socialized medicine is treated like a bogeyman. (Ronald Reagan, for example, got his start in politics when he was still a B-grade movie actor by recording a vinyl record warning about its dangers.)

Everyone here agrees that our own health care system requires huge reform (although of course we disagree stridently about how), but there is so much money to be made by so many vested interests that we’ll probably never try anything different.

Wanna trade? :D
 
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I think there are good examples of effective middle ground solutions in other countries like the Netherlands, but regardless I am a believer in a basic free at the point of use healthcare system.
 
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EU member states have different VAT rates too. You'd just need to indicate which state (and sometimes district) you're from / have your goods delivered to, which you have to do anyway once you actually buy an item. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just saying if you want to do it it's technically just a UX issue. For example, when you're not logged in, prices could be shown without sales tax. For recurring customers prices could be shown based on their standard address.
Yeah but EU members are actually independent countries each with its own government and laws, and Apple has a separate online store for each of them. In the US, on the other hand, Apple has a single online store that sells to 50 states with different sales tax rates (or with no tax at all). That’s why they can’t publish prices on their website with tax included. Besides, in the US it has always been customary to add the sales tax at the time of checking out. Americans wouldn’t easily adjust to such a change.
 
This has nothing to do with profiteering. They are required to collect sales tax/VAT and remit them to the appropriate governments.

The ignorance of your post was quite awful.

Thanks for trying to help while her school was closed!
 
What is it you get for the taxes?

More alcohol, way less guns than elsewhere. High speed motorways in good states, no death sentences.
Good education that’s also affordable.

First world country, in a nutshell.
 
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