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How are they going to be “brought back to respect the rules?” It’s amusing that you’re calling people out for being keyboard warriors while using this strident language. But hey, you do you, tough guy!
I beg your pardon, my poor english narrows my way of expression. In other words:
cohesive and common behavior make it easier to isolate those who do not respect the rules. If there are few cases, the calls of the security staff or simply the protests of the majority prevent it from degenerating.
In a country where "me me me before everything" is well established, is easier to have more behaving against the rules, especially if rules needed against an invisible threat.
About keyboard warriors: don't make me name names, I don't want to quarrel, but I imagine that during your frequentation you happened to run into one of them sometimes.
I just laugh when I see certain proclamations and I imagine them doing so in my city, among the people I know
 
Does customizing your Memoji face diaper indicate you care about other people and is my breathing of fresh air without a face diaper the same as randomly shooting a gun in your opinion? Have you been that brainwashed?

I assume you breath when you are out in public, yes? And if you breath on me and you infect me, I have around a 5% chance of dying because of my age. So how is that any different than taking a gun with one bullet in a 20-round clip and pulling the trigger?

And don’t tell me it’s because you don’t have the disease. You have no idea if you have the disease unless you were tested 10 minutes ago using the instant test and got a negative.
 
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Nice sweeping generalizations about my country, homie. Please do lecture us some more!
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I assume you breath when you are out in public, yes? And if you breath on me and you infect me, I have around a 5% chance of dying because of my age. So how is that any different than taking a gun with one bullet in a 20-round clip and pulling the trigger?

And don’t tell me it’s because you don’t have the disease. You have no idea if you have the disease unless you were tested 10 minutes ago using the instant test and got a negative.
What a silly analogy. It's a 20 round magazine, bruh, not a clip.
 
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Yep. Think of it like drunk driving. Drinking until drunk is a personal choice, but driving on public roads and highways while drunk can negatively effect other people's lives. That's why it's illegal. It's not really just a personal choice anymore.
The analogy carries even further: driving drunk isn’t illegal because it will necessarily kill someone else, but rather because it hugely increases the odds of killing someone else. So much so that it’s deemed reasonable to make it illegal to drive drunk, even if you don’t hurt anyone in the process. Similarly, interacting in public without a mask and/or without social distancing hugely increases the odds of harming someone else - potentially many other people - by spreading a virus that you may not know you have.
 
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Godzilla is scheduled for July, reptilian invasion is scheduled for August, and the AI Skynet revolution is scheduled for October. September is free for now.
Got coke bears and boars this month. I've got Betty White dies on my COVID Bingo board also.
 
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The analogy carries even further: driving drunk isn’t illegal because it will necessarily kill someone else, but rather because it hugely increases the odds of killing someone else. So much so that it’s deemed reasonable to make it illegal to drive drunk, even if you don’t hurt anyone in the process. Similarly, interacting in public without a mask and/or without social distancing hugely increases the odds of harming someone else - potentially many other people - by spreading a virus that you may not know you have.
You must be angry with the tens of thousands of people that congregated in small areas, without respecting social distancing.
 
You must be angry with the tens of thousands of people that congregated in small areas, without respecting social distancing.
If they didn't wear masks, they were indoors and less than 6 feet apart (or any 2 of those three) then yes, they should have been more careful too.
 
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If they didn't wear masks, they were indoors and less than 6 feet apart (or any 2 of those three) then yes, they should have been more careful too.
Did you miss the weeks of coverage of the protests where countless thousands were nose-to-nose?
 
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Godzilla is scheduled for July, reptilian invasion is scheduled for August, and the AI Skynet revolution is scheduled for October. September is free for now.

November should be better.
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Yes, very dramatic. I’m so scared now...more testing after a quarantine lift is causing more cases. I’m shocked.

It always amazes people that people who say this, never seem to make the simple effort of looking at the percentage of tests that are returning positive results. Well, I did look. It's been going up.
 
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Why? We should quarantine for flu if our goal is to save lives. The flu is also a very serious Virus that kills tens of thousands of people.

We just deal with the flu and we will deal with this. Permanent quarantine saves lives for many things, but it’s not practical.

Disagree all you want.

Hahaha. I wondered where you disappeared when I compared your flu numbers to COVID:

If you looked at your own flu numbers you could also see the following:
  • The 2017-18 season had an estimated 45million symptomatic cases of flu with 61K mortalities.
  • The 2020 COVID season thus far had 2 million confirmed cases and 118K deaths and we are barely half way in.

According to these numbers form the CDC, COVID-19 is literally 44 times more deadly than a what you called a "bad flu."
 
I have no issue with them closing these stores

What I question is why they don’t also close stores in Austin and San Antonio which have also had dramatic spikes in positive cases recently

I was at The Domain and the line was insane. Having people huddled outside is no different to having them inside the stores at this point. :(
 
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November should be better.
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It always amazes people that people who say this, never seem to make the simple effort of looking at the percentage of tests that are returning positive results. Well, I did look. It's been going up.

COVID hospital admission rates are the simple most reliable measure as long as people show up to the ER when they are really sick (in NY there was a point where they didn't). It eliminates the "bias" from more directed testing (not a bad bias to have) as well as the tip-of-the-iceberg effect caused by the minimally symptomatic.

What really angers me that people still don't understand what we learned from Wuhan then from Lombardy then from New York: everybody's mortality rates increase if the healthcare system is overwhelmed by COVID patients. And everybody includes the guy in their twenties with the burst appendix, or the lady in her forties with the blood clot.
 
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I guess i'll never understand why Apple is dragging their feet with store closes, where most other businesses won't have a problem. Apple stores/customers may of even contributed to the spread by not closing stores fast enough in the first place,
 
Hahaha. I wondered where you disappeared when I compared your flu numbers to COVID:



According to these numbers form the CDC, COVID-19 is literally 44 times more deadly than a what you called a "bad flu."
If you think there are 2M covid cases because that is all that’s been confirmed, you are not thinking nearly deeply enough to have a meaningful discussion. I know you don’t even believe covid is 44X more deadly.

Furthermore, the “death count” for covid has been shown in many cases to be quite loose. A dead person testing positive for Covid has been counted as a Covid death despite many other conditions present at time of death.

Also, the flu has been around a long time. Covid is just a new virus...the flu kills tens of thousands in the US every single year, WITH treatment and a vaccine. The flu, like many other viruses and illnesses is extremely dangerous, but we haven’t taken unprecedented action with those and shouldn’t. That time will and already is happening with Covid...we deal with it and move on.

If your only goal is to save lives above all else, we should quarantine and wear masks for flu, strep, and other illnesses that are contagious and kill people. We should probably stop flying in planes too...would save lives, you know.
 
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If you think there are 2M covid cases because that is all that’s been confirmed, you are not thinking nearly deeply enough to have a meaningful discussion. I know you don’t even believe covid is 44X more deadly.

Furthermore, the “death count” for covid has been shown in many cases to be quite loose. A dead person testing positive for Covid has been counted as a Covid death despite many other conditions present at time of death.

You just repeated exactly what you said in the other thread. You made me laugh with the thinking deep comment. Do you want to discuss and interpret the data that is out there or is this all you've got from whatever source is telling you what to think?:D I presented the raw numbers, now it is your turn to explain to me why they are wrong.

If you had some idea about how people die in an ICU, you knew that organ systems shut down one by one until we cannot keep their gas exchange and blood pressure adequate enough to keep their brains and hearts alive. SARS-CoV-2 also has some weird tropisms specifically attacking the lung, the kidney, the brain and messing up the coagulation cascade. So your argument about conditions present at the time of death is as serious as saying if someone dies in the hospital after a car crash due to multi organ failure, its because they had "many other conditions present at time of death" and not the crash.

Stop arguing with yourself about permarantine. Nobody wants that. If you look at Europe's numbers you can see what it takes to beat the first wave.
 
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COVID hospital admission rates are the simple most reliable measure as long as people show up to the ER when they are really sick (in NY there was a point where they didn't). It eliminates the "bias" from more directed testing (not a bad bias to have) as well as the tip-of-the-iceberg effect caused by the minimally symptomatic.

What really angers me that people still don't understand what we learned from Wuhan then from Lombardy then from New York: everybody's mortality rates increase if the healthcare system is overwhelmed by COVID patients. And everybody includes the guy in their twenties with the burst appendix, or the lady in her forties with the blood clot.

Agree 100%. What I was doing is addressing the fallacy in the "more testing means more cases discovered, therefore there is no problem" BS. If the positive rate is rising, that proves "more testing more cases" is NOT an explanation for the rise. Simple math. If "more testing more cases " were an explanation for the rise, the positive rate would be falling, or stable at the worst.
 
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Agree 100%. What I was doing is addressing the fallacy in the "more testing means more cases discovered, therefore there is no problem" BS. If the positive rate is rising, that proves "more testing more cases" is NOT an explanation for the rise. Simple math. If "more testing more cases " were an explanation for the rise, the positive rate would be falling, or stable at the worst.

Yep. I just wanted to augment your post, which was absolutely adequate and appreciated! On a practical end I see my physician friends in Houston anxiously monitoring the admission numbers, because the REDPLOYMENT signs are already flashing. Nobody's eager to abandon all their plans for the next 2-3 months to get redeployed to a COVID floor.

It's also easy to see how the quality of healthcare drops if radiologists and ophthalmologists as it happened in NY and many others are being pushed to care for patients very much out of the scope of their expertise. ( I emphasize that these people are very smart and adjust quickly, but it still takes time for the adjustment).
 
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People who don't get, by now, that this plandemic is totally harmless cannot be helped - sorry not sorry

NO ONE DIED. OK?? The numbers from the USA are completely useless - it's OFFICIAL policy to classify anybody who is suspected of covid as covid death, which means that doctors, if they want to, can classify every single american death as covid death.

Because guess what death happens to very old people who are very sick with muliple illnesses and covid symptoms are so vague it couuld be anything.

These are facts and everyone knows it by now. Even the CDC now admits the CFR is 0.26 %. For comparison the death rate of the flu _vaccine_ - not the flu, just the vaccine - is 0.5%. Twice as high. The CFR will eventially be revised to even less until it ends up at the flu levels.

What does it mean - it means we don't know why the hell they've shut down the world for this, but most definitely not because of a virus. Media brainwashing and programming keeps going full steam any scientific evidence to the contrary, and governments sign $1Bn contracts and immediately the "cases spike"

Oh you don't believe in so called conspiracy theories - well its no longer a theory, it's a conspiracy. Bona fide.

Don't believe me, do a reverse check jsut now - take any 3 digit number, follow it by "new cases" and see what you get in Google - any number works, e.g. type 577 new cases, you get a ton of news articles on 577 new cases - almost like magic. This is called a conspiracy - without the theory

I was walking through Vienna, Austria today, it's back to normal, people here aren't so stupid as to lock themselves down forever, walking through the city, I found the Apple Store as the sole nazi state covid emergency shop in the entire town!

It was comical!

Serious looking security guys, RULES (2m distance - no science supports this by the way, it's freely made up), and the only shop in town where people still have to wear masks. Right next to the Apple Store, there's outside restaurants packed with people, and the usual crowd running around the old town, all shops open, no masks anywyere. Except at Apple. Not a good look and testament to the full retart mode California has entered. I used to live there, so sorry for it now...

Hahaha. Nothing speaks more about the level of laziness that went into this post that you didn't even care to do the 2min google search your own numbers. You can calculate the CFR for yourself using data from the worst season of this decade. (NB, it varies between Flu strains).

2017-18 Flu season: CFR = 0.1%


2020 Covid season: CFR = 5.1%

Data to support distancing:

But yeah, doctors do be like diagnosing.
 
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If folks wear masks, keep up social distancing, keep up testing, and we do quarantining and contact tracing of sick people, we can do way better. Take a look at Europe. They’re doing the right things, it’s not magic.

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The problem in the US is that a pandemic is something far beyond what mere "folks" can realistically deal with without real, serious, government intervention. Yes, strictly speaking, if every individual person followed your guidelines, the US would look like the EU. Except that a vast number of people would be homeless and starving — and that's only where the problems begin.

Making this out to simply be an issue of wearing masks, social distancing, and getting ourselves tested is an oversimplification and misses the real issue. How long can you realistically expect people to do that when, first, their politicians are repeatedly telling them that everything is fine and, second, even if they do everything right, they'll receive little to no help from their government in implementing these measures and will still be at great risk due to the rest of the population? (Why would I want to get myself tested, for instance, if a positive result means I can't work, shouldn't go out to buy food, and have to essentially disengage from the world without any assistance?)

What we need is, first, a government willing to admit there's a problem. (Yes, some state and local governments are doing better, but the scale of the pandemic is far beyond anything states, counties, and municipalities have the tools or resources to deal with on their own.) Then, we need a real response at the federal level, to make financial and logistical tools available that states simply don't have at their disposal.

The only ray of sunlight at the moment is that we're only stuck with the current response through, at most, January. The US currently accounts for somewhere around 25% of COVID-19 deaths worldwide, and that number is only rising. If you don't like it, make your voice heard (now, as loudly as possible) and vote!


A couple last points. If you believe the increased case counts now are really due only to increased testing, look at hospitalization rates and look up what a positivity rate is. With increased, broader testing, you expect to see a lower proportion of positive results vs. negative. Many places are seeing the reverse, despite increased testing

Finally, the focus in the media has somehow shifted from keeping case counts down to simply not overwhelming hospitals. Hospital capacity is the absolute last line we should be looking at. When you begin running out of capacity to even support COVID-19 patients (because support is all we can do), you have failed in every sense of the word.

Far too many people who become infected will die even with the best support we can offer today. Yes, we need to focus on the economy and social support, but medically, the goal needs to be to reduce infections, full stop. Every time someone even ends up in the hospital, suffers life-altering respiratory and/or vascular damage, or is otherwise significantly affected by COVID-19, we, as a society, have already failed them. Death (and worse, death in a crowded hospital with overextended resources) is only the absolute worst form of failure possible.
 
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You just repeated exactly what you said in the other thread. You made me laugh with the thinking deep comment. Do you want to discuss and interpret the data that is out there or is this all you've got from whatever source is telling you what to think?:D I presented the raw numbers, now it is your turn to explain to me why they are wrong.

If you had some idea about how people die in an ICU, you knew that organ systems shut down one by one until we cannot keep their gas exchange and blood pressure adequate enough to keep their brains and hearts alive. SARS-CoV-2 also has some weird tropisms specifically attacking the lung, the kidney, the brain and messing up the coagulation cascade. So your argument about conditions present at the time of death is as serious as saying if someone dies in the hospital after a car crash due to multi organ failure, its because they had "many other conditions present at time of death" and not the crash.

Stop arguing with yourself about permarantine. Nobody wants that. If you look at Europe's numbers you can see what it takes to beat the first wave.
Yeah, and what you've said has been repeated ad nauseam on every major news outlet, every single day for months.

Deaths divided by confirmed cases and zero analysis on who has died, why, and what other factors were involved. It's totally insane to talk about mortality rates with the denominator being confirmed cases. General consensus is that 1 confirmed case equals at least 10 unconfirmed, making the death rate at least 10X lower.

The car crash argument is absolutely silly. I am talking about people who may already have pneumonia, strep, sepsis, cancer, etc first and Covid was present at time of death. Since many of the deaths are in the elderly and weakened, Covid being the main cause of death is highly questionable in many cases.

Again, the flu kills tens of thousands on an annual basis. We should be doing better with that too. I take precautions and live my life, as everyone else should. More quarantine doesn't help. Virus is part of life now. The reason we have problems is people in the US don't want to listen. That's a cultural problem and not an easy one to solve.
 
Deaths divided by confirmed cases and zero analysis on who has died, why, and what other factors were involved. It's totally insane to talk about mortality rates with the denominator being confirmed cases. General consensus is that 1 confirmed case equals at least 10 unconfirmed, making the death rate at least 10X lower.

Which authoritative source does this consensus come from?

The car crash argument is absolutely silly. I am talking about people who may already have pneumonia, strep, sepsis, cancer, etc first and Covid was present at time of death. Since many of the deaths are in the elderly and weakened, Covid being the main cause of death is highly questionable in many cases.

Were these people likely to die in the near term had they not suffered symptoms of COVID-19? If not, the deaths are correctly attributed.

The numbers are pretty clear. Even the CDC data (note, the orange line is the "upper bound threshold for expected deaths", and is already several thousand over the historical data) shows a clear trend of tens of thousands of additional deaths.

CDC guidance makes the risks pretty clear. Are you suggesting we condemn the elderly (and anyone else with risk factors) to a horrible death simply because they aren't already perfectly healthy?

Again, the flu kills tens of thousands on an annual basis. We should be doing better with that too. I take precautions and live my life, as everyone else should. More quarantine doesn't help. Virus is part of life now. The reason we have problems is people in the US don't want to listen. That's a cultural problem and not an easy one to solve.

See above. We could absolutely do better with the flu (starting by getting everyone vaccinated). But the threat from the flu pales in comparison to COVID-19.

We are in agreement that the US would be doing far better if people just listened. ;) (Though listening is only half the battle.)
 
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Yeah, and what you've said has been repeated ad nauseam on every major news outlet, every single day for months.

And this is why some of your statements are so painful.

Deaths divided by confirmed cases and zero analysis on who has died, why, and what other factors were involved. It's totally insane to talk about mortality rates with the denominator being confirmed cases. General consensus is that 1 confirmed case equals at least 10 unconfirmed, making the death rate at least 10X lower.

Does this mean that you agree that COVID is at least 5 times more deadly than the deadliest Flu outbreak in this decade?:) If so at least we have common ground in one thing. It's interesting that you always mention comorbidities with COVID but conveniently forget the same comborbidity "analysis" with the flu. (Hint: the vast majority of hospitalized Flu patients also have them). You also conveniently forget that similar reporting issues apply with the Flu. Also if you only look at hypertension, more than half the population has it between age 40-60...i.e. well prevalent in the workforce. You also forget that the issues of COVID and the flu are confluent and CDC will likely report these together at the end of the year.

Conflating "general consensus" with an interview with the CDC director is just another one of your fallacies. If you paid attention to what he said, he also suggested that the testing numbers overrepresent symptomatic cases. If I restricted the COVID stats to the symptomatic cases too, the mortality rate would be even higher. As the Flu expert you are, you might be aware that while 33% of Flu patients may remain asymptomatic, they are also less likely to spread the virus. In contrast, asymptomatic COVID patients spread the virus longer and 40% of them lose their SARS-CoV-2 IgG within 2 months of clearing the virus. This may very well translate into shorter immunity and that's why antibody testing should be interpreted with caution. It is however a good objective marker to show why testing is more crucial with COVID than with the flu and how inadequate it has been.

BTW, you've mentioned that new case numbers should not be public. It's as much of a public interest information as the weather forecast in a tropical storm. You might be a storm chaser but most of us aren't.

The car crash argument is absolutely silly. I am talking about people who may already have pneumonia, strep, sepsis, cancer, etc first and Covid was present at time of death. Since many of the deaths are in the elderly and weakened, Covid being the main cause of death is highly questionable in many cases.

The car crash analogy sadly reflects your level of understanding of how comorbidities work. While you suggest that all these people who otherwise statistically were not likely to drop dead of their chronic conditions decided to inconveniently die in those two weeks they happened to test positive for COVID can be very easily tested by looking at the number of excess deaths. @Chaos215bar2 was nice enough to post the link for you. Hint: it shows that you are dead wrong even with this data not being complete yet.


More quarantine doesn't help. Virus is part of life now. The reason we have problems is people in the US don't want to listen. That's a cultural problem and not an easy one to solve.

More quarantine can help if adequately targeted. It's much more economical to quarantine 100 people and prevent an epicenter from forming than letting thousands get infected hundreds die and prolong the issue. We can maybe start solving the cultural issue by not telling people this is just a flu.
 
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The US would be better if people only listened? It always seems like each side is having one half of the debate.

All for quarantine for as long as necessary if we all accept that is the end of the US economy for a decade or more. It seems people think we can have it both ways. This thing appears to be too contagious to not expect it to surge once people start circulating. Plenty of poor countries (the ones no one cares about) have decided that economic ruin is the wrong path.

But if we’re doing it, we need to be clear that this is a quarantine until there’s a cure/vaccine.

Saying we “just” need to focus on economic and social support is just hand-waving when the country is already in massive debt.
 
The US would be better if people only listened? It always seems like each side is having one half of the debate.

All for quarantine for as long as necessary if we all accept that is the end of the US economy for a decade or more.

So you think it will take a decade for a vaccine?

Do you think if every single human stayed in one place for 14 days, or until tested and proven unaffected, the disease would go away? If not, how would it spread?
 
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So you think it will take a decade for a vaccine?

Do you think if every single human stayed in one place for 14 days, or until tested and proven unaffected, the disease would go away? If not, how would it spread?

No idea about the vaccine. We don’t have one for the flu or HIV. Who knows?

We don’t know nearly enough about this thing. Is there a strain which behaves the same way (same incubation period amongst all infected people)?

I wouldn’t be against giving it a shot but that means zero international travel going forward as well or we’d just reinfect the population.

What about people who need meds and other items delivered to them during the 14 day period?
 
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