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Listening to the comment she still doesn’t say fees are not allowed. Just that they cannot be prohibitive (make difficult), whatever that means in practice.

She also did not reference fees as defined in the DMA, just her comment. So, again, what is written into the law on this topic?
In the European Union (EU), the principle of “good faith” is not merely a contractual clause but a fundamental legal tenet that shapes regulatory and legislative frameworks. It embodies the values of integrity, fairness, and prudence in law-making, resonating with the EU’s objectives of market integration and the advancement of rights. Judicial scrutiny in the EU demands that regulations not only be legally sound but also morally justifiable and economically sensible.


Contrary to this, the United States (US) limits the concept of good faith primarily to the realm of contractual obligations, adopting a textualist approach that emphasizes the literal interpretation of statutes. The EU’s civil law tradition, however, integrates the notion of good faith into the broader context of legal interpretation, advocating for fairness and reasonableness in laws to ensure they fulfill their intended purpose beyond mere textual compliance.


This fundamental difference in legal philosophy stems from the distinct traditions of common law in the US, which prioritizes the explicit text of the law, and civil law in the EU, which upholds overarching principles. This divergence leads to varying applications of the law, with the EU favoring interpretative flexibility guided by good faith, while the US maintains a stricter adherence to the written word.


In the context of the EU’s Digital Markets Act (DMA), the ethos of good faith significantly influences the interpretation of provisions, including those related to fees. While the DMA does not explicitly outlaw fees, it mandates that they should not be prohibitively high, in line with the EU’s legal philosophy. Fees that hinder market entry or distort competition would be deemed contrary to the spirit of good faith and the DMA’s goal of fostering contestable and equitable digital markets. Thus, the DMA, interpreted through the lens of good faith, discourages fee structures that could be perceived as unfair or obstructive to its regulatory objectives.
 
I don't think you're understanding the comparison. I can't help that unfortunately. It's just an analogy, something to compare A to B with. As they are based off the physical store, and a computing device.

Well thanks for explaining what an analogy is. Respectfully, it's just a terrible analogy because your pocket computing device isn't generally anything like a physical store.

Same analogy, it's been repeated many times. You go to any store, you buy things. You generally don't see items with multiple prices and re-directs to other stores near by. I think someone could be laughed out of the store if they asked them to post a price for item x that is sold at store B. While some stores will price match or even beat the price from a competitor. We generally don't' see the price of the competing store anywhere in the store we are in. We also don't see a competing price on or within the item we are purchasing either. Maybe there is a coupon in the box or something for when it's purchased again, or another product they offer. But, generally the "person(s)" are the one that is supposed to "shop".

Again respectfully, what on Earth are you talking about? Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, is changing for the App Store. It will not show you how much the app costs on Epic's store. It will not tell you that the app is also available on Epic's store or have to point you to Epic's store. The App Store remains the App Store.

Things might be priced differently on Epic's store, but it's, you know, a whole other store. Like 100% more store than before.

Going forward, might you have a different payment processor within an app? Sure, but again you're no longer in the App Store. You're in Spotify or wherever.

And I have stated that it should be allowed for the developer to advertise pricing on their site. And via emails to account holders. "Hey, want to get VBUCKS, go to www.epicstore.com and make your purchase. It will apply to all devices and consoles you login with. I have no issue and I think Apple would be fine with that level of informative ads. But, just not within the app.

To stay with your favourite physical store comparison, if you bought a product, taken it home, taken it out of the package and phoned the manufacturer to buy something from them, you wouldn't normally expect to go back to Target to pay, right? Right.

You can either remove the IAP feature "or" you charge what you need to charge for the IAP to cover whatever the cost is and the fee to Apple. For example, I may go to a convenience store for chips and beer. I "know" it's going to cost more there than if I went to the supermarket and a beer distributor. But, I'm here at the convenience store. Apple made it convenient to purchase directly within my iPhone for X and Y apps. I know I could go online and get subscriptions from Spotify and Netflix directly (supermarket and beer distributor) for less. But, I'm here, and I'm willing to sign up even at the higher price. Because maybe Apple lets me unsubscribe easier or offers me some benefit for purchasing it "here" rather than "there". Or maybe I'm just rich enough to not care. Either way, this is perfectly normal in everyday life as to not be that difficult to solve the minutia details of how to reach a customer for more business the way we have been doing it for-eva.

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make here. Just like note, if the developer lets you pay through Apple, then go for it.

It can be argued yes it is, as the store is built in.

Does that mean it's also a browser? Look, yes in the most colloquial sense a smartphone is a camera, an mp3 player, a flashlight, a calculator and many more things, but really it's not actually any of these things. It's not a store. It is a computing device that can run different applications, including virtual stores.

That's the reason why all of the target analogies fall flat. Your phone isn't like Target. Compare the App Store to Target, if you insist, but the analogy breaks when you extend it beyond that.

These devices can compute, but they are not at the same as a desktop for many things. While exceedingly better at other things desktops can't do. They are "different" and should be treated differently for their use cases and purposes.
A calculator is a computer as well. No one is comparing it to a desktop though. A smart watch is a computer, a Wi-Fi router is a computer, and a gaming console and so on.

They may not be the same, but I'm not sure there's a convincing argument for why it makes more sense to compare an iPhone to a physical store than to a Mac. It's ridiculous.
 
??? The App Store is specifically for native iOS apps which run on Apple's 1st party hardware. No iOS/iPhone, no native app. Apple isn't a middle man like Best Buy or Target. Best Buy/Target didn't make it possible for your toaster to exist and you don't need anything from them beyond buying the toaster. Apple has created the entire system that makes it possible for the app to run, hardware and software and store.
The systems that make the iPhone work are the hardware, the OS, and the APIs that make application development possible. The store isn't needed for any app to run. Apple absolutely is a middle-man when it comes to selling Apps. Just because they are the only middle-man (because they mandated themselves into that position) doesn't mean that their store is such an integral part of the OS that it has to exist in order for apps to exist. Decades of OS APIs existing without being tied to stores prior to and after the invention of the iPhone makes such a notion ridiculous on its face.
 
??? The App Store is specifically for native iOS apps which run on Apple's 1st party hardware. No iOS/iPhone, no native app. Apple isn't a middle man like Best Buy or Target. Best Buy/Target didn't make it possible for your toaster to exist and you don't need anything from them beyond buying the toaster. Apple has created the entire system that makes it possible for the app to run, hardware and software and store.
Tell that to 16 years of the iOS side loading community With some clever trickery can run any software without apple’s blessing nor payment.

And zero legal actions setting a single legal precedent against owners installing their software on their phones without paying Apple anything for the APIs they use etc.

Developers don’t use iOS APIs in the app, they just have the correct code to interact with it without apples approval.
 
The systems that make the iPhone work are the hardware, the OS, and the APIs that make application development possible. The store isn't needed for any app to run. Apple absolutely is a middle-man when it comes to selling Apps. Just because they are the only middle-man (because they mandated themselves into that position) doesn't mean that their store is such an integral part of the OS that it has to exist in order for apps to exist. Decades of OS APIs existing without being tied to stores prior to and after the invention of the iPhone makes such a notion ridiculous on its face.
I think there’s close to 40 preinstalled apps on the iPhone (some which can be deleted).
 
Freeing them from the shackles of Apple will certainly help that.
Yes, those alt App Stores are really going to pump up the flaccid EU tech sector.

Now that those Apple “shackles” have been cast aside — EU IS FINALLY FREE TO INNOVATE AND COMPETE!

This is gonna be awesome! 😂
 
With the DMA FINALLY reigning in those Evil American Gatekeepers, the world waits with bated breath for all the amazing competitive offerings the EU will show us!

EU boys — what’s on the menu now that you’re FREE TO INNOVATE AND COMPETE?

Mommy has spanked Apple good — now’s your time to shine! 🌟
 
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In the European Union (EU), the principle of “good faith” is not merely a contractual clause but a fundamental legal tenet that shapes regulatory and legislative frameworks. It embodies the values of integrity, fairness, and prudence in law-making, resonating with the EU’s objectives of market integration and the advancement of rights. Judicial scrutiny in the EU demands that regulations not only be legally sound but also morally justifiable and economically sensible.


Contrary to this, the United States (US) limits the concept of good faith primarily to the realm of contractual obligations, adopting a textualist approach that emphasizes the literal interpretation of statutes. The EU’s civil law tradition, however, integrates the notion of good faith into the broader context of legal interpretation, advocating for fairness and reasonableness in laws to ensure they fulfill their intended purpose beyond mere textual compliance.


This fundamental difference in legal philosophy stems from the distinct traditions of common law in the US, which prioritizes the explicit text of the law, and civil law in the EU, which upholds overarching principles. This divergence leads to varying applications of the law, with the EU favoring interpretative flexibility guided by good faith, while the US maintains a stricter adherence to the written word.


In the context of the EU’s Digital Markets Act (DMA), the ethos of good faith significantly influences the interpretation of provisions, including those related to fees. While the DMA does not explicitly outlaw fees, it mandates that they should not be prohibitively high, in line with the EU’s legal philosophy. Fees that hinder market entry or distort competition would be deemed contrary to the spirit of good faith and the DMA’s goal of fostering contestable and equitable digital markets. Thus, the DMA, interpreted through the lens of good faith, discourages fee structures that could be perceived as unfair or obstructive to its regulatory objectives.
This is quite a detailed post that does a fine job of contrasting the EU approach to implementing laws vs the US!

I just wonder if all this “spirit and good faith” will actually help the EU compete 🤔

I understand it’s difficult being so far behind the US — maybe spirit and good faith is just what the EU needs!

It will be very interesting to see if regulations will activate some latent EU innovation!
 
This is quite a detailed post that does a fine job of contrasting the EU approach to implementing laws vs the US!

I just wonder if all this “spirit and good faith” will actually help the EU compete 🤔

I understand it’s difficult being so far behind the US — maybe spirit and good faith is just what the EU needs!

It will be very interesting to see if regulations will activate some latent EU innovation!
More than less stunt product and service growth. If companies need to adhere to tight regulations
 
Apple probably already have a workaround for this scenario. I’m assuming once consumers download apps from the epic App Store those apps can always be re-downloaded to the device same way as Apple App Store allows. I assume this will also work even if account has been revoked, that way users won’t be affected, but they may not be able to receive further updates.
 
And that's fine. If you want to be honest with your analogy - nobody says Apple should be allowing vendors to re-direct to their own store from within Apple's storefront. Apple can absolutely restrict users from being redirected to another store from within Apple's app store.
ok.
Why not within the App? The App is not the store. The App belongs to the developer, not Apple.
I've only ever seen coupons within say a boxed item purchased from any store I've been to. You open a box of say soap and in it there is a manufacture coupon for whatever % off your next purchase "anywhere" this item is sold.
I've never seen a re-direct to purchase either directly or from another store. I would expect the app to be no different in behavior.
The fact that the Apple app store exists on a user's device doesn't have any relevance beyond the fact that Apple provides a convenient method for installing apps from its own store. The device and OS are separate entities from the app store and should be treated as such.
I would be ok with them letting you know you via emails or other means outside the app. Again, you're the shopper.
As far as everything else, someone else posted something really good to address exactly the part "the device and OS is separate". The iPhone was something new. And Apple "fixed" the issue of keeping it simple for the end user, and strait forward for the developer to reach the end user. I can't say it better, so I will have to find it and post it when I do.
 
We have some people here who clearly weren't around and paying attention back when you could literally drag and drop an IPA onto your iPhone to install an App

The Apple App Store is in no way necessary
Thank you for this historical retrospective on IPA installation!

Education is important!

And thanks for your opinion regarding the Apple App Store!

Understanding your view on the Apple App Store has really improved this thread! 🙏🏼
 
This is quite a detailed post that does a fine job of contrasting the EU approach to implementing laws vs the US!

I just wonder if all this “spirit and good faith” will actually help the EU compete 🤔

I understand it’s difficult being so far behind the US — maybe spirit and good faith is just what the EU needs!

It will be very interesting to see if regulations will activate some latent EU innovation!
Well EU actually have a very strong tech sector, the issue is EU as an institution is barely 20 years old. When Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, intel etc was founded, EU didn’t even exist by then. And the U.S. lithographic industry died for a reason to be replaced by ASML

The Euro wasn’t even introduced untill 2002. And the current EU did come to be with the reforms of 2007-2009. which form the constitutional basis of the European Union (EU). The Treaty of Lisbon, which was signed by all EU member states on 13 December 2007, entered into force on 1 December 2009

IMG_3864.jpeg
 
This is quite a detailed post that does a fine job of contrasting the EU approach to implementing laws vs the US!

I just wonder if all this “spirit and good faith” will actually help the EU compete 🤔

I understand it’s difficult being so far behind the US — maybe spirit and good faith is just what the EU needs!

It will be very interesting to see if regulations will activate some latent EU innovation!

More than less stunt product and service growth. If companies need to adhere to tight regulations
And well this Legal philosophy way isn’t implemented by EU, this is just how continental Europe have worked for hundreds of years, heck our legal system is just a continuation of the Roman legal system and the fact we are way more geared towards the school of thought ordoliberalism having a major impact on how markets, competition and anticompetitive practices are perceived and understood.

 
And well this Legal philosophy way isn’t implemented by EU, this is just how continental Europe have worked for hundreds of years, heck our legal system is just a continuation of the Roman legal system and the fact we are way more geared towards the school of thought ordoliberalism having a major impact on how markets, competition and anticompetitive practices are perceived and understood.


So the question remains — does this make the EU more competitive vs the rest of the world or not?

I understand EU members *perceive* that the EU philosophy is better, but the results of today (ASML notwithstanding) don’t appear to bear this out.

Maybe the EU goal is not really to compete, but to appear like they care about competition by rule enforcement?
 
Nobody is really even doing that now

Apple mainly checks to make sure their financial terms aren't being violated by an App

A marketplace of App stores WOULD however open up the "quality" component as a key differentiator to compete on.

I'm positive that parents of the world would love to see App stores competing to create the most curated and "child safe/enjoyable" App ecosystem

This is why Apple is fighting all this so hard
They want you locked in -- they don't want to be competing.

Competing takes energy and resources -- and they might not "win" like they do now (offer no choice, so people take what they get from Apple)
So you honestly think alt App Stores is offering up real competition to Apple, and Apple fears this? 😂

Buddy, the war is long over! What the EU “won” was the ability for their member companies to bury some of the casualties for a few extra Eurocents 😉

Apple fought this because they want to control their own platform, plain and simple.
They “complied” with a definite 🙄.

If you ever built something great, you’d want to protect it too. It’s not rocket science 😉

This whole thing will be a fart in the wind — it’s super entertaining how excited EU boys (and REGULATORS🙀) got for this nothingburger though.

Enjoy burying those bodies!
 
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So the question remains — does this make the EU more competitive vs the rest of the world or not?

I understand EU members *perceive* that the EU philosophy is better, but the results of today (ASML notwithstanding) don’t appear to bear this out.
Well EU members don’t perceive it as anything, it’s their philosophy. It’s quite literally how the Germans, French, Belgians, Scandinavians Italians etc etc think.
EU’s legal philosophy reflects the members. And that’s why Continental EU and Uk didn’t get along that well.
I don’t think anyone perceive it as better, it’s just the legal history we have developed through.

You can look at DHL, T-mobile, SAP( used by almost everyone in Fortune 500 except Tesla)
Maybe the EU goal is not really to compete, but to appear like they care about competition by rule enforcement?
Well EU don’t have that goal, that’s up to the states to do that as it’s beyond the scope of the legal mandate EU have. EU care about the principle of a competitive market as close to the merits of the market as this is enshrined in EU constitution and was a necessary thing when EU was known as the Coal and steel union to make sure companies between the European powers in the 50s-80s didn’t completely obliterate other countries industries or state aid was abused etc etc. that why the vast majority of anti trust and competitive laws is almost exclusively against:
  1. Internet providers
  2. Mobile ISP providers
  3. Energy provider
  4. Railway, busses etc
  5. Agriculture
Effectively what was a threat to the single market.


EU isn’t a federal government and we are closer to a confederacy. We don’t have common tax system or investment

The EU government is very small
EU government expenditure 170 billion € 2023
U.S. government expenditure 5 trillion € 2023.

Barely even getting to what the U.S. federal government spent on transportation or health.
IMG_3865.jpeg
 
Just buy Android you bunch of spanners
Why buy a phone you know is locked down and THEN complain about it being locked down.
It’s like going to a vegan cafe and demanding meat.
You’re just being jerks
 
Just buy Android you bunch of spanners
Why buy a phone you know is locked down and THEN complain about it being locked down.
It’s like going to a vegan cafe and demanding meat.
You’re just being jerks
Just move out of the EU, why live in a place that allows sensible policies and complain about those sensible choices allowing more freedom.
It's like complaining that a new store is opening just around the corner and now you have more options.
 
Yes, those alt App Stores are really going to pump up the flaccid EU tech sector.

Now that those Apple “shackles” have been cast aside — EU IS FINALLY FREE TO INNOVATE AND COMPETE!
One thing is clear: If there’s one entity that does not want to compete, it’s Apple. They’re anticompetitive.
So you honestly think alt App Stores is offering up real competition to Apple, and Apple fears this?
Just answer the question: why are Apple so bitterly fighting and denouncing the regulation? Instead of, you know, just complying and providing a better service/store that consumers trust, at competitive rates - also known as competing?

Do you really believe they’re doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, for consumers safety and convenience? 🤣
Apple fought this because they want to control their own platform
…instead of competing, yes.

The termination of Epic‘s account and reinstating it only days later certainly makes them appear not „in control“ - and that goes for much of their cringeworthy communication around the DMA (including the „concerned customers emailing Tim Cook“).
 
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Not all people buy an iPhone because of the wall garden approach.
agreed however

for those people that buy iphones despite the walled garden approach, then you have an alternative to the walled garden in the form of Android. Nothing that can do on iPhone that cannot do on Android.

So what is it that makes people that want an open mobile ecosystem buy an iPhone.

what is it that makes you instead buy a closed mobile ecosystem instead.

for those of us that want the walled garden then our alternative once Apple is no longer a walled garden is?

even if we don’t actively use the alt app stores or side load the wall has been knocked down and iOS is now part of an open mobile ecosystem.

with how was before the EU shoved its oar in then had options for all
 
for those of us that want the walled garden then our alternative once Apple is no longer a walled garden is?
You can still choose to remain within the confines of the walled garden (at least with regards to installation of apps) and download all of your apps exclusively from Apple.

Are you forced to download and install from other developers? No.
Could an app that you like withdraw from Apple's App Store? Yes - just as it can today, for any reason (if it's not being forcibly expelled by Apple). Apps can and go, but you have a choice.
even if we don’t actively use the alt app stores or side load the wall has been knocked down and iOS is now part of an open mobile ecosystem.
I don't see what "wall has been knocked down".

"Sideloading" has been available for years.
You could install any app from just downloading it from a random website. Apple even helpfully explain how to do it. They just did not contractually allow third-party developers and app stores to do it for distribution to consumers. That didn't prevent operations from certain parts of the world to obtain signing certificates for such "shady" business.

The only wall that's been knocked down is the "developers are not allowed to" in Apple's old developer terms.
By your choice not to "actively use the alt app stores or side load", you erect a wall that's equally secure - but only needs to be around yourself.
 
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