But there'd likely be fewer blacks than asians taking the test, right?
Of course that's a given. In such populations, the bell curve holds sway, with exceptional individuals at both ends of the curve.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Releases Employee Diversity Report, 7 out of 10 Workers Are Male, 55% White
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
But there'd likely be fewer blacks than asians taking the test, right?
Of course that's a given. In such populations, the bell curve holds sway, with exceptional individuals at both ends of the curve.
And this is all still wrong.
There's no proof of anything you say.
Even searching the report you posted gave me this page which states:
American Psychological Association said:
The difference in test scores was 15 points . . . . that was almost 20 years ago and isn't a large or uncommon deviation.
The same link I posted was from reports done one year before that and states:
So sure, it's easy to say that there's a difference, but 1) the people actually doing the work don't know the difference and 2) when put on equal footing blacks tend to do better.
That's not a slap in the face against whites, just that the other 84% of blacks not doing better is a phenomenon that remains unexplained.
There are of course a host of other reports that talk about other cultures, races and ethnic groups.
Probably, yeah.
But if a black person is easily as capable of achieving the same levels of intelligence as a white person or asian, the question isn't "why are black people less intelligent", it's more "why does the black population tend to hit lower lows". In the US alone, you have millions of black people who have achieved positions that require a large amount of intelligence to obtain, from the scientific community, to positions in goverment, to corporate boardrooms. So it's not a question of ultimate potential or capability, it's a question of averages. If A is perfectly capable of achieving X, then why don't we see more A's doing X's.
There, you can throw just as many nurture/curtural answers at the walls as you could natural ones. Heredity does play some part, as does cultural leanings. But heredity, like culture, isn't a fixed thing, it's not a perpetual destiny of an entire people. If it were, the entire human race would be just as intelligent now as it were in 600 AD which obviously isn't the case. Inherited traits, even among isolated demographics, evolve onward and upward. So everyone involved needs to ask themselves "what can we do to reverse the trend".
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a diverse team, but how you get there is important. Don't hire someone just because they improve your diversity figures, pick them because they will be a good fit for the company and are going to be good at what they do.
I'm a minority within a minority, and would loathe to think that I only got a job because of it. Hire me because I'm awesome (which I am
).
I'm a minority within a minority, and would loathe to think that I only got a job because of it. Hire me because I'm awesome (which I am
).
Last edited:
Sez you!
Given that you disagree with the provided proof without providing proof of your own, your complaint doesn't carry much weight.
The difference was 15 points between blacks and whites. Presumably it's higher between blacks and asians.
Your conclusion is not borne out by the quote you cited. In fact, it seems to contradict you:
1) "African Americans test about one standard deviation below the whites, which for the non-statistically trained implies that the average white is superior to 84% of the African Americans."
2) Nowhere in your cite does it say "when put on equal footing blacks tend to do better."
Please provide actual proof of your claims.
By any of the quotes thus far given, your claim that "there is actually little to no performance difference between any of the races" is flat wrong.
That is indeed the question. And if anyone knows me and how many times I've been put in time out for correcting ignorance dealing with African Americans, you'll be surprised to hear me say this.
I don't think it necessarily needs correcting.
Most of the test takers fall near the average, just slightly lower. I personalyl don't think it's a major issue. But that's just me.
I'm a minority within a minority, and would loathe to think that I only got a job because of it. Hire me because I'm awesome (which I am
Don't worry, you are awesome, and no company or retail chain or manager would ever thing of hiring someone just to fill some imaginary diversity quota.
I wonder if there have been tests done comparing IQs of American blacks with African blacks. Could be interesting.
Says the facts. I did post LOTS OF links to prove my claims . . . . twice actually. You posted none for your first statement and even less than NONE for this one.
Says the facts. I did post LOTS OF links to prove my claims . . . . twice actually. You posted none for your first statement and even less than NONE for this one.
That doesn't work. I gave you links and cited quotes. You, on the other hand, gave cites that didn't support your conclusions.
If there is something you are inferring or implying, please enlighten all of us by simply coming out and saying it.
BL.
Which is entirely irrelevant, so long as the sample size of each group is sufficient (50 being the bare minimum). Didn't you ever go to school..?
Not sure I'd call anyone to the left of any curve exceptional
(Yes, I know what you meant. It just struck me funny.)
Well, this part isn't true. Blacks make up only ~12% of the population (12.2% as of 2006 IIRC), which makes them about 30.5ish million strong. In order for there to be more than a million of them as you described, 1 in 30 people (~the 97th percentile) would have to have "a large amount of intelligence"/be exceptionally smart.
They aren't =P
No you didn't. You didn't the first time, and you didn't the second time. You didn't post anything that refuted what I posted twice, and you didn't post anything this recent time.
Here's what I've posted, some may repeat:
Ooh, look links!
- The nature of the person taking the test. e.g. are they stressed?
- The fact that IQ varies over our lifespans
- Psychology and behavior
- Perspectives of merit and achievement
- Of course prejudice and racism
And
Even searching the report you posted gave me this page which states:
Which is the wiki page to a study you linked to which states only that there is a 1 deviation difference and no one knows why. It also states that just about every other group has a slight deviation in that range.
Then this:
isn't a large or uncommon deviation. Which helps explain the deviation and it's nature. 1SD / 15 points is not a large gap.
now, I've actually cited quotes. One of my favorites is this one because I've linked to it twice:
Then you have to remember that . . . . . .
Never mind.
Actually you just linked your own post, not the study saying Whites are smarter.
Did you ever learn about irony in school, by the way?
Skunk: A standard deviation is actually an enormous difference. The point is there's a reason behind it.
Most of the best engineers are (in most but not all cases) white or Asian. It's not because they're any smarter than minorities, it's because Europeans and Asians have been blessed by history and geography. In almost every aspect, Europeans have had it a lot better than Africans and other ethnicities and cultures. For example, Europe is much easier to farm than most of Africa because of climate differences. So while Europeans could harvest the crop and spend all winter in their houses tinkering around, Africans historically had to hunt and gather year round and didn't have as much free time. Africa's climate also lends itself to having much more serious diseases.
There are social, political, environmental, and geological factors that all add together to determine how "well off" a society of people will be, how quickly they historically would have been able to advance and conquer their neighbors, grow rich off trade, educate their children, etc.
If slavery had been outlawed in the United States since the 1500's, and Africans moved to the New World as freemen without prejudice, you would see just as many African Americans (proportionately) graduating university and becoming great engineers as white or Asian Americans.
A lot of people don't understand why poor African Americans and other minorities don't just "pull themselves up by their boot straps" out of poverty, and the simple truth is that it's just not that easy for most people. In fact, in most cases it is impossible to pull yourself out of poverty without some serious luck. It has been proven that in homes where the parents yell at each other, young children have much higher levels of cortisone (a stress hormone) in their blood stream. This leads to extensive cognitive impairments that will last for the rest of their lives because cortisone literally STOPS brain development in its tracks. Thus, even in a brain scan, poverty is easy to see even at five years of age.
This is just one example of how poverty and historical injustice can lead to centuries of inequality, even when slavery is outlawed. It takes MANY generations for the harm done by slavery to disappear entirely. I predict that even 200 years from now, the insidious effects of slavery will still be apparent on African Americans in US society.
There are social, political, environmental, and geological factors that all add together to determine how "well off" a society of people will be, how quickly they historically would have been able to advance and conquer their neighbors, grow rich off trade, educate their children, etc.
If slavery had been outlawed in the United States since the 1500's, and Africans moved to the New World as freemen without prejudice, you would see just as many African Americans (proportionately) graduating university and becoming great engineers as white or Asian Americans.
A lot of people don't understand why poor African Americans and other minorities don't just "pull themselves up by their boot straps" out of poverty, and the simple truth is that it's just not that easy for most people. In fact, in most cases it is impossible to pull yourself out of poverty without some serious luck. It has been proven that in homes where the parents yell at each other, young children have much higher levels of cortisone (a stress hormone) in their blood stream. This leads to extensive cognitive impairments that will last for the rest of their lives because cortisone literally STOPS brain development in its tracks. Thus, even in a brain scan, poverty is easy to see even at five years of age.
This is just one example of how poverty and historical injustice can lead to centuries of inequality, even when slavery is outlawed. It takes MANY generations for the harm done by slavery to disappear entirely. I predict that even 200 years from now, the insidious effects of slavery will still be apparent on African Americans in US society.
Last edited:
Please have the courtesy to respond point-by-point to my posting as I did for yours. That will help reduce the confusion in your arguments.
In the grand scheme of things, no. A black guy could score 110 on an IQ test today, 10 points below his peers, and go out and find the cure for cancer tomorrow. An IQ test is a rough indicator of intelligence, but hardly works as definitive proof, and shouldn't be held up as such.
But the fact black people score lower on these test is an anomaly that's indicicative of something. It's worth looking into for the simple sake of finding out why. If, for anything, just to shut some people up.
One interesting thing I feel like I should bring up is that if you're told you'll score lower on the test, you'll end up actually scoring lower on the test. Like if you get a group of black people together for the test, and you tell them that blacks generally score lower...well, yeah. That's an extra point of stress that another group might not be burdened with, something they'll always have in the back of their mind while they're taking it. They'll end up second guessing themselves, and doing the test slower because of it, which leads to lower results.
So is that the sole reason why black people score lower? No. But it's a reason. One among a million variables that need to be taken into account before anyone passes judgement.
Why can't you guys provide quotes to support what you say? I have no idea what you're writing about.
"Irony"? I'm soaking in it here today.
You do make a good point.
Conversely though there are a lot of people that do perform under the average that end up moving up the socio-economic ladder. The report DUCK tried linking to mentions that being the case with the Asian demographic.
IQ tests are a nice guide, but not the end all be all. I've never supported them for anything outside of general statistical information. I feel the same about standardized testing in schools. Those tests have the same issues you're mentioning.
Telling the kid that this test is the end all be all will stress them out, and some folks aren't good test takers overall. Intelligence isn't a measure of ones skill in coping with stress.
Again, you do make a good point.
If you hit them on the head with a baseball bat before they take the test, that will also probably cause them to score lower.
Of course I can't provide any proof that IQ testers are using baseball bats, nor can you show that test takers are being told in advance that they're expected to do poorly.
OH MY GOD NO
THIS IS WAY WRONG
Let's not forget that Africans were taken from West Africa for their farming experience not their skills in hunting.
Also, I seem to remember early European settlers having trouble with farming the land when they first got here.
Can people PLEASE stop making things up.
Everything else you say after that is right on though brother.
...I did not make any of it up. Yes, Africa used to have empires before the climate changed. Many people attribute this historical climate change, which led to the dramatic expansion of the Sahara desert, which many believe led to the downfall of the Egyptian kingdoms (a phenomenon called desertification which is still occurring to this very day). I can post studies and sources if need be...
Everything I said is very well known in the field of cultural anthropology. You should read the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond. Before you tell someone that they're lying, try and do a little bit more research yourself than just posting a Wikipedia link to "African Empires".
Last edited: