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Apple Releases New iPods
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Lacero said:
All physicalities are the same; and if there was any big difference, I think they would have announced it. I pretty much think apples move with the ipod line was just to make the photos (which were selling poorly) more attractive.
DM5 said:
One more time.
It isn't about spending $20.00, it is about supporting your hardware user's connectivity interface (in this case Macs). It's an Apple invention, and a good one. The reason a lot of people are irritated is because they feel abandoned in favor of the Windows market (USB is an Intel technology). Just sad to see an Apple product with standard connectivity support aimed at Windows machines, when without it's computer unit (especially during the dark years) it wouldn't (and won't when the iPod isn't the hottest thing since sliced bread) exist.
Mac users are the best free advertising Apple gets - this was a stupid move. It's like saying "Hey, sorry, we put this technology in the machines we build, and you all love it, but we're making a mint on the players, so eff you - you have to spend an extra $20.00 for technology we put in your machine (and have for years).
It's just stupid.
iGary said:
Listen for the last time. Apple has not abandoned Firewire support. They just didn't include the cable. Apple supports standards, USB is a standard, so is H.264, 802.11g, BT2.0. All these are not Apple technologies but I don't hear you going off that some Macs don't come with built-in Airport cards.
Lacero said:
1. Where did I say they abandoned FireWire? (Quotes please)
2. Apple needs to support the standards they invented and put in their machines as innovations, this is a move away from that.
3. All Mac laptops (mobile computers) come standard with AE. That makes sense.
Next?
in summary
It looks like there are going to be no winners and no losers to this debate. So, I figure I'll throw in my last comment and be done with this.
I should preface my comments. I own a 3G15 and I like it. I got it when it was the middle (not the base), so it came with the dock. Anyway, I find that the dock is useful for those that want to have a quick connection to whatever the line out is connected to. I currently have my computer speakers connected to the dock, making my day one long music festival. So, I personally find not including the dock with the Photos to be silly - they are the tope of the iPod line up. It's a luxury thing, if you will. But, not including them is fine.
As for the USB/Firewire debate. I don't have the USB cable. I use the firewire. My fiance uses the Firewire (via my adaptor for her PC) for her 4G because the USB port doesn't like her iPod (but it liked her old mini - anybody think they can figure that out?), but I mentioned that in an earlier post.
What the debate seems to be is why the Firewire cable is not included. To answer those who suggest that a cheap alternative be purchased, I (along with several others) have reminded that the iPod uses a propriatary connection. That makes the generic cable useless. There was that "dock anywhere" adaptor that I saw at the Apple store, but it was $10-15 or so. Anyway, it is an increased cost. Now, the opposition makes a valid point that if you can afford an iPod, you can afford a cable. I agree with that. But, if the iPod is the theoretical BMW of mp3 players, I don't see BMW charging more for vanity mirrors or air conditioning. I mean, you can get by without them, but they are touches that make sense.
However, the cables do cost money to Apple, regardless of how little. The A/V cable for the Photo is expendable - I didn't get an audio connector for my iPod when I bought it. I would venture to guess that most people are not going to need both the USB and Firewire cables, if both can do everything.
Now, many users of this site have iPods. In fact, I think the number of iPods sold is 20 million (I might be wrong). That means that if all of the iPods had been sold in the US, there would be about 280 million Americans without, along with the rest of the world. That's a lot of people that may purchase. Yes, you may have the adaptor already, but most will not.
I am curious to know what the savings are for not including the Firewire cable and a power adaptor. I would imagine that it is not a whole lot.
This leads to my proposed solution. Apple can sell with the USB cable. But, be willing to exchange within 14 days. Allow the end user to bring in a reciept and the USB cable and swap for the Firewire. I also believe that if Apple was willing to give one power adaptor, of users choice, to the purchaser of an iPod, it would eliminate much of the griping that we are seeing today. The benefits of this plan are that USB users can do what they want, but those who seek Firewire are satiated. This should eliminate the need to make a change right now to the packaging. As soon as reasonably possible, I would propose that the iPod cease to have a cable included in the box, and that both the cable and adaptor be chosen at the time of purchase. There are problems that may need to be worked out, but this is a broad plan. Worst case scenario, with the power adaptor, if Apple chooses not to give it away, it could be made available for a significantly reduced (think just above cost) price.
Any thoughts?
It looks like there are going to be no winners and no losers to this debate. So, I figure I'll throw in my last comment and be done with this.
I should preface my comments. I own a 3G15 and I like it. I got it when it was the middle (not the base), so it came with the dock. Anyway, I find that the dock is useful for those that want to have a quick connection to whatever the line out is connected to. I currently have my computer speakers connected to the dock, making my day one long music festival. So, I personally find not including the dock with the Photos to be silly - they are the tope of the iPod line up. It's a luxury thing, if you will. But, not including them is fine.
As for the USB/Firewire debate. I don't have the USB cable. I use the firewire. My fiance uses the Firewire (via my adaptor for her PC) for her 4G because the USB port doesn't like her iPod (but it liked her old mini - anybody think they can figure that out?), but I mentioned that in an earlier post.
What the debate seems to be is why the Firewire cable is not included. To answer those who suggest that a cheap alternative be purchased, I (along with several others) have reminded that the iPod uses a propriatary connection. That makes the generic cable useless. There was that "dock anywhere" adaptor that I saw at the Apple store, but it was $10-15 or so. Anyway, it is an increased cost. Now, the opposition makes a valid point that if you can afford an iPod, you can afford a cable. I agree with that. But, if the iPod is the theoretical BMW of mp3 players, I don't see BMW charging more for vanity mirrors or air conditioning. I mean, you can get by without them, but they are touches that make sense.
However, the cables do cost money to Apple, regardless of how little. The A/V cable for the Photo is expendable - I didn't get an audio connector for my iPod when I bought it. I would venture to guess that most people are not going to need both the USB and Firewire cables, if both can do everything.
Now, many users of this site have iPods. In fact, I think the number of iPods sold is 20 million (I might be wrong). That means that if all of the iPods had been sold in the US, there would be about 280 million Americans without, along with the rest of the world. That's a lot of people that may purchase. Yes, you may have the adaptor already, but most will not.
I am curious to know what the savings are for not including the Firewire cable and a power adaptor. I would imagine that it is not a whole lot.
This leads to my proposed solution. Apple can sell with the USB cable. But, be willing to exchange within 14 days. Allow the end user to bring in a reciept and the USB cable and swap for the Firewire. I also believe that if Apple was willing to give one power adaptor, of users choice, to the purchaser of an iPod, it would eliminate much of the griping that we are seeing today. The benefits of this plan are that USB users can do what they want, but those who seek Firewire are satiated. This should eliminate the need to make a change right now to the packaging. As soon as reasonably possible, I would propose that the iPod cease to have a cable included in the box, and that both the cable and adaptor be chosen at the time of purchase. There are problems that may need to be worked out, but this is a broad plan. Worst case scenario, with the power adaptor, if Apple chooses not to give it away, it could be made available for a significantly reduced (think just above cost) price.
Any thoughts?
jettredmont said:Umm, that's exactly the point, isn't it?
For someone *upgrading* unless the dock connector has changed (which it hasn't), there's no need to get yet another Firewire dock cable.
Same, of course, for Windows users. No need for another cable which you most likely can't connect to your computer anyway.
As these are the two areas where Apple is seeing the most iPod growth, by far (face it; if you're a Mac user who hasn't updated your Mac in 2-3 years [since USB 2 became standard on all new Macs] then you're probably not going to be spending the change on a new iPod), this makes sense. Easy, low-impact cost savings, passed down to you and I, the customers.
Finally, the Firewire cable's not all that expensive, and if you want a dock (personally, I couldn't live without it; my iPod would get lost in the clutter of my desk if it wasn't standing upright!) then that's all you need to get as it includes the cable too.
Stop complaining. Some very nice updates. And my 40GB 4G is now a collector's item!
USB 2.0 Certainly hasn't been standard on Macs for 3 years, my Ibook is 1.5 years old and doesn't have USB 2.0. Firewire is better. The Firewire cable doesn't cost Apple anymore(at least according to their website). Apple just lost themselves a sale. If Apple wants me to buy a new machine every year they need to start bundling Mac's with Windows because my G3 300 still runs 10.3 acceptably. And Finally the Firewire cable is 20 bucks, far too much for a cable that by Apple's own account, doesn't cost them anymore to include with the mini.
***Update***
An acceptable solution would be to give the user a choice of USB or Firewire cables at the time of purchase. One or the other.
Apple should at least offer an option to order the iPods with a Firewire cable INSTEAD of a USB 2.0 cable so that many mac users won't have to pay extra.
schatten said:
No, you are incorrect. The theoretical bandwidth is greater (480 vs 400), but add in protocol overhead and USB2 ends up with less practical bandwidth. Add in the CPU processing required for USB2 host management, and the difference is even more striking.
Fact is, if you have a fast drive, and it has Firewire and USB2 connections, the FW connection will *always* trump the USB2 connection in terms of throughput.
Now, the iPod drive is hardly a 10k speed demon drive. I haven't explicitly timed transfers, but from general speed perspective I'd say that the transfer rate nowhere near maxes out either the USB2 or Firewire connections. In which case, it just plain doesn't matter.
IMHO, I was having trouble with my iPod, which I charged at work on the firewire cable and at home sync'd using USB2 (on a PM G5). The device completely crashed and just wouldn't come back to life no matter what. The AppleCare rep said, essentially, that USB2 support with Macs and iPods together was just plain more flaky than Firewire. We took my work Firewire cable (this was over a break, so I had it home, thankfully!), used that to sync up the drive, and all was well again. Haven't had any more pod problems since.
Hopefully, Apple's worked out whatever was causing the USB incompatibilities (perhaps it was just the inability to charge over USB, although I'd been charging mine using the power brick+FW cable and the battery showed 100% at the time).
tomjleeds said:I guess you're right, but the problem is that they're such a rip-off. You pay £2.50 for a standard Firewire cable, yet Apple insist on charging £15 because it's got the silly 'dock connector' (wait, the docks don't come as standard anymore
Dock never came as standard.
I see Apples point in moving to USB2 only as all new Macs have USB2 (and all new Windows PCs too)
It's about cutting cost for Apple on stuff most people wont use.
They should DEFINITELY have included an AC adaptor though.
It's about cutting cost for Apple on stuff most people wont use.
They should DEFINITELY have included an AC adaptor though.
on this whole FW/USB2 thing--
I agree with iGary & co. in Mac-nerd (or Mac-intelligentsia, if you prefer) principle. Apple should not appear to diminish their support for FW. I am personally disappointed to see this happen. But as has been said, we are the minority here in iPod-land.
BUT from a business standpoint-- and Apple is a business, not a treehouse club-- this makes perfect sense. The only people they are leaving out in the cold are Mac users who don't either already own this cable from a previous iPod, or don't have a USB2 Mac. That's a niche of a niche. But even then, the cold they're left out in isn't that cold. It requires $19 or so to come on back into the FW warmth.
So while in principle I don't think this is ideal, I can't really fault Apple for it, and I do not think it's the end of the FW-world. No true Mac-nerd would let something this small actually diminish their faith in all things Mac; if it helps Apple sell more iPods/make more profit to be re-invested back into the Mac side of the business, that's a good thing.
Now, as for not including the power adapter ...
I agree with iGary & co. in Mac-nerd (or Mac-intelligentsia, if you prefer) principle. Apple should not appear to diminish their support for FW. I am personally disappointed to see this happen. But as has been said, we are the minority here in iPod-land.
BUT from a business standpoint-- and Apple is a business, not a treehouse club-- this makes perfect sense. The only people they are leaving out in the cold are Mac users who don't either already own this cable from a previous iPod, or don't have a USB2 Mac. That's a niche of a niche. But even then, the cold they're left out in isn't that cold. It requires $19 or so to come on back into the FW warmth.
So while in principle I don't think this is ideal, I can't really fault Apple for it, and I do not think it's the end of the FW-world. No true Mac-nerd would let something this small actually diminish their faith in all things Mac; if it helps Apple sell more iPods/make more profit to be re-invested back into the Mac side of the business, that's a good thing.
Now, as for not including the power adapter ...
Rovias said:
Do we know if the new camera link due out in March will work with the 1st gen ipod photos?
I'm a fan of the updates (but, of course, with some nitpicky qualms), but I am NOT a fan of the updates to apple's website. Look at the ipod info pages on there.
They went from classy, practical, subtle, to "look! it's fashionable!". Which is the fastest way possible of making it look like you're trying too hard, or that everybody's got one, so you've got to get something else to be unique.
Bad move.
Apple gets so much good press about "the cool factor" they've generated by doing everything with more style, but NOT touting it....
They went from classy, practical, subtle, to "look! it's fashionable!". Which is the fastest way possible of making it look like you're trying too hard, or that everybody's got one, so you've got to get something else to be unique.
Bad move.
Apple gets so much good press about "the cool factor" they've generated by doing everything with more style, but NOT touting it....
Question: Will my firewire power adapter that came with my 2nd gen ipod charge a mac mini via the now not included Dock Connector to Firewire cable.
TDM21 said:
Maybe because this model hasn't changed otherwise ... then they'd have dropped features for the same price. Maybe they have a bunch still sitting waiting to be sold.
My father, by the way, has one of these sitting in an unopened box, new. Someone got it for him, but his Mac is a G3 PB (Lombard), with no FW, only SCSI and USB1. I keep telling him to sell it ...
I'll close this up and let it get back to good debate about the new features etc.
I like FireWire, and so do a lot of Mac users - it's on just about all of their computers. OK, we're whiny, mushy stuck to our ways kind of people. That's why we bought Macs - the interface, the connectivity, the QUALITY.
Some of us are just upset that Apple decided to save a dollar (and that's being generous) and not include both cables in the packaging. It's the message behind selling a top-end product and selling it with a cheap connectivity standard when it might cost them a dollar to offer both. So far it has worked for over 10,000,000 iPods. Why change?
It's just kind of a slap in the face - so far almost 800 people and the editors at Mac Daily News agree with me. Doesn't mean I am not wrong, just means that I'm not alone.
Cheers all, I'll clamp my trap now.
I like FireWire, and so do a lot of Mac users - it's on just about all of their computers. OK, we're whiny, mushy stuck to our ways kind of people. That's why we bought Macs - the interface, the connectivity, the QUALITY.
Some of us are just upset that Apple decided to save a dollar (and that's being generous) and not include both cables in the packaging. It's the message behind selling a top-end product and selling it with a cheap connectivity standard when it might cost them a dollar to offer both. So far it has worked for over 10,000,000 iPods. Why change?
It's just kind of a slap in the face - so far almost 800 people and the editors at Mac Daily News agree with me. Doesn't mean I am not wrong, just means that I'm not alone.
Cheers all, I'll clamp my trap now.
sparks9 said:
Let me rephrase. The dock doesn't come included with any iPod model. It's purely an aftermarket product.
kaltsasa said:
I assume you mean charge an iPod mini, not a Mac mini
And yes, it'll work fine.
iGary said:
I'm only slightly less irate. Slightly.
But it does look like someone will be getting a pink ipod mini fer their aniversary end of this month.I just placed my order through the educational discount website for a 40 gig iPod Photo and it was only $350. An awsome deal considering this is brand new and comes with the docking station and carrying case. the only differance is that its just a tiny bit thicker than the new 30gig. What a steal.