I didn't know thatGood thing I didn't buy Apple Care then... I am in the UK
As others said already, after more than six months _you_ have to prove that the defect was there when you bought the computer. Good luck.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Reportedly Addressing Fraud by Third-Party Service Centers
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
As others said already, after more than six months _you_ have to prove that the defect was there when you bought the computer. Good luck.
It SHOULD be just as easy for technical users to disassemble/reassemble our machines when upgrades/repairs are required. A nonfunctioning PBG4 that was diagnosed at a CompUSA Apple authorized facility was replaced since the cost of the items to be replaced was almost the same as a new PBG4. Apple had postponed having it accurately diagnosed ("Try this, try that") until it was past its warranty period. Luckily, it was paid for with VISA which extended the warranty. Otherwise, I could not have afforded to replace it. CompUSA is now gone from the scene and we have been fortunate not to have needed any further repairs.
The same comments about product design apply to auto repair/service. My car was designed by an idiot - I can replace half of the spark plugs. The back side of the engine is inaccessible unless I remove either the hood or the firewall or use a dealer's lift to access the plugs from underneath.
It is nice to see that Apple is doing something about repair centers which are double-dipping. However, due to the nature of the beast, greed will cause people to plan other ways to rep off the customer as well as Apple et al.
Apple is just making the third party guys post the serial numbers of the parts they are replacing. That's smart.
As a customer, I like third party Apple techs. Why?
Oh, because they are about twenty times smarter about Apple products than the Genius Bar people.
But I have dropped a bomb load of money on third party repairs as well.
I remember that iMac g3 "ram scam" too. Remember paying like TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS for another third party place to put in one 512mb chip into an iMac G3... thirty dollars or so for the "installation"...
if you ever have changed ram on an iMac g3, you will know what a rip off this is... Paid 175 for the ram chip back in the day and 30 for the install. I think they wanted more installation fees to take out the stock chips or something.
I never do anything on my under warranty Macs unless I call Apple first.
Keeps everyone honest.
As a customer, I like third party Apple techs. Why?
Oh, because they are about twenty times smarter about Apple products than the Genius Bar people.
But I have dropped a bomb load of money on third party repairs as well.
I remember that iMac g3 "ram scam" too. Remember paying like TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS for another third party place to put in one 512mb chip into an iMac G3... thirty dollars or so for the "installation"...
if you ever have changed ram on an iMac g3, you will know what a rip off this is... Paid 175 for the ram chip back in the day and 30 for the install. I think they wanted more installation fees to take out the stock chips or something.
I never do anything on my under warranty Macs unless I call Apple first.
Keeps everyone honest.
Ah, sorry. I didn't realize that things would be that different in other regions. It just seems very odd that they would do it that way. It doesn't make sense for the tech to slap stickers on everything when they can just send everything with the sticker already on it. Maybe it's something about screwball regulations in other countries, although I'm at a loss as to what those would be. Weird. Everything in GSX comes with the stickers attached and you simply record the old and new serial numbers. As for the logic boards, I can't imagine any way to reflash the serial without someone leaking Apple's ROM software, or maybe even specs on the hardware that uses the diagnostic port on some motherboards. It would definitely take some doing.
No apologies needed. It's only logical to question something that by your experience is wrong. We have been told by apple that ALAC will start with new procedures and that they will have the stickers attached. Which is a Godsend because having to take a logic board put the stickers, one for the serial and one for the NIC's MAC address then put a sticker with the replacement serial on the old one it becomes a pain.
I believe that one of the biggest issues is exactly that, the difference of the systems they use by region. In this past year they have improved ALAC considerably making it a bit harder to commit fraud, but it's still very easy to do in ALAC. GSX I have no experience, I can log in but I cannot use anything except the field to check a serial number for warranty status, so it leave us like
. But from what I can see it would not be as easy to commit fraud in GSX as it is in ALAC, then again I could be mistaken. But if there's such a HUGE difference between the systems in US and Latin America, imagine Europe and Asia. Such disparity I believe is a huge issue.
I would not be surprised at all if a few of the "far east" repair centers were here in Thailand. I've never had anything but shady and poor service from any "authorized" Thai Apple service providers. Even the Mac shop I bought my computer from tried to partially charge me for a (warranty) SuperDrive repair 4 months later. It wasn't until I took the matter to Apple that they backed off of the charge.
this is EXACTLY what happened to me. I reported warranty fraud to Apple after a 3rd party service center tried to scam me. Apple took this extremely seriously when I called their corporate office in TX.
My original post on an authorized retailer trying to scam me. Interesting read!!!
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/690422/
My original post on an authorized retailer trying to scam me. Interesting read!!!
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/690422/
Interesting. I've heard stories of a Macxprts shop in Post Falls, ID telling people that nothing is wrong with their Macs and charging them a $100 diagnostic. Then the people take the Mac somewhere else and get it fixed properly. I've also heard stories of the manager of said shop completely slandering a guy who used to own a Mac shop in the area. I can't definitively confirm those, but I've heard enough to make me wonder.
Also, unless there was some pretty freaking obvious liquid damage, they can't deny it like they did. If the LSIs aren't tripped then they need to be able to show clear liquid damage. Apple Stores will take photos. None of this "Well, it COULD be" bullsh*t. That just pisses me off. It is or it isn't. If there isn't compelling evidence, assume that it isn't and replace parts as necessary.
I know of another one
It's a slightly different scam where they would tell the customer that the warranty is not valid if the computer was not purchased in the country ( which ofc is total crap ) and then ask the customer to pay for the repairs while still getting the parts for free. And since it is a quite large center most people do end up paying. The scam is a bit more elaborate that that. They ask you to show some stupid made up warranty card ( not apple approved ofc ) and since you cannot do that they tell you that you have to pay. I had problems with my screen while I was visiting some friends there and to my huge surprise my friends said this was normal. I waited until I got home and got the repairs done at an Apple Store but I wonder if there is anything that Apple can do about this crap and how would one go about reporting it
I hope the facility that repaired my computer didn't defraud Apple… because if they did, I'm going to ask for a refund.
Plus my computer is falling apart again as a result of the repair, so I might ask them to fix it again.
AppleCare isn't entirely useless, because after the first 90 days, without AppleCare, you won't technical support over the phone… and after the first year, you may not be able to get repairs outside the jurisdiction of the laws pertaining to the ECC… which pretty much means when you're traveling. Of course I'm not sure about this last one, but it would be a reasonable thing to assume because that's what I would do if I were Apple.
Plus my computer is falling apart again as a result of the repair, so I might ask them to fix it again.
I know! I'd say it's only one year because Apple doesn't have much confidence in its own products.
What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.
AppleCare isn't entirely useless, because after the first 90 days, without AppleCare, you won't technical support over the phone… and after the first year, you may not be able to get repairs outside the jurisdiction of the laws pertaining to the ECC… which pretty much means when you're traveling. Of course I'm not sure about this last one, but it would be a reasonable thing to assume because that's what I would do if I were Apple.
Not surprised to hear this practice is going on in the UK. Some resellers / authorised repair centres offer a fantastic service. Others are complete rogues out to make a quick buck, with no regard for customer service.
I refuse to use our local authorised service centre because they either LIE about the repairs they have done, or send stuff away for 3 weeks and then decide there's nothing wrong with it -- when evidently the machine wont turn on. Or they claim they have an "inventory dispute" with Apple and refuse the exchange of smaller items like keyboards or mice.
Instead I use a Apple store about 60 miles away. Never had any problems dealing with Apple directly and always found staff to be very friendly and knowledgeable. Turnaround for repairs is normally only 2-3 days.
I refuse to use our local authorised service centre because they either LIE about the repairs they have done, or send stuff away for 3 weeks and then decide there's nothing wrong with it -- when evidently the machine wont turn on. Or they claim they have an "inventory dispute" with Apple and refuse the exchange of smaller items like keyboards or mice.
Instead I use a Apple store about 60 miles away. Never had any problems dealing with Apple directly and always found staff to be very friendly and knowledgeable. Turnaround for repairs is normally only 2-3 days.
Call Apple and let them know. The guys on the support line should be able to transfer you to the appropriate department. If so, Apple will look into it, perhaps by sending in someone to get scammed. The store might just get their Apple service revoked, which would serve them right.I know of another one
Problems with reseller in Argentina
I'm glad they're taking steps to prevent abuse by authorized resellers.
I've had problems with MacOnline here in Argentina. They tried to charge me for a repair under warranty. After arguing with them for a week, and after telling them I would complain directly to Apple, they accepted to give me my laptop back, fixed, at no additional cost.
Another friend of mine had a similar problem. He had a white MacBook, with a broken plastic surface. This problem was recognized by Apple a while ago, and should be fixed at no cost. MacOnline tried to charge him. He went to another reseller and they accepted to fix it at no cost.
Is there any way to raise these complaints effectively with Apple (appart from making international calls)?
I'm glad they're taking steps to prevent abuse by authorized resellers.
I've had problems with MacOnline here in Argentina. They tried to charge me for a repair under warranty. After arguing with them for a week, and after telling them I would complain directly to Apple, they accepted to give me my laptop back, fixed, at no additional cost.
Another friend of mine had a similar problem. He had a white MacBook, with a broken plastic surface. This problem was recognized by Apple a while ago, and should be fixed at no cost. MacOnline tried to charge him. He went to another reseller and they accepted to fix it at no cost.
Is there any way to raise these complaints effectively with Apple (appart from making international calls)?
I think I must be missing something. Basically they said that they wouldn't repair your computer under warranty and you should sell it for scrap on eBay. Where is the profit for them? I thought the scam would be that they tell you it isn't covered under warranty and they repair it for say $500, and then tell Apple it was repaired under warranty and Apple pays for the exact same repair again.
Sorry, just read the thread more carefully: So they _did_ actually try to get $900 out of you. In a rather nasty way.
Long story short: They tried to get cash money from me on a repair and then bill Apple. I informed Apple. Apple investigated. They made the 3rd party dealer pickup the check and pay for a replacement computer. I have no beef with the store as new owners purchased it. I'm sure they're honest guys.
Charging customers for something they should absolutely NOT have to pay for in accordance with their warranty agreement with Apple (and the contract the shop signed to become a service center) is not justified at all. Yes, Apple isn't very nice to service centers, but you can make money doing Apple service if you're smart about it. Do your best to keep the Service Excellence rating up. Sell third party components (RAM, hard drives, and third party suppliers for out-of-warranty repairs. A Macbook LCD from OWC is much cheaper than one from Apple and has a 1 year warranty to boot) from the bench. Offer additional services like training and billed onsite.
On the risk I will probably be flamed I still had to respond to these posts.
I own an Apple Authorized Service Center and these procedures were put into place because of a few bad apples (no pun intended) service providers out there taking advantage of the system. Just like the new procedures Apple has put into place for consumers because of all the fraud consumers try to pull over on Apple.
The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.
We had a person bring in a MacBook because it would not power up. On disassembly we found traces of a dried liquid pool under the optical drive. We called the owner and and asked if there might had been an accidental spill they fanatically responded "absolutely not!". Upon further disassembly we noticed clumps of something under the logic board. Once again we called the owner and this time one of the kids answered the phone and admitted they had vomited on the MacBook and the dad had poured several bottles of rubbing alcohol through the computer to try to clean it out. And when that didn't work he bought it to us to repair. When the father found out the kid had ratted him out, the father went on a rant on how "if Apple's engineers were so smart that they would build their laptops where they could resist any liquid spill". That doesn't excuse you from the fact that you lied about your computer repair.
I can't tell you how many times we have had people bring in laptops with broken screens and say "I left it on my desk when I finished last night and when I woke up this morning the screen was broken!". Let's see... what's this dent on the corner of your laptop?
As far as charging you to reassemble your laptop, I don't blame them for doing that. Someone has to pay for the technicians time. Apple was not going to cover your repair, there was indication of abuse (which is typically customer's fault), it only points to you to cover the labor to diagnose your computer. Now if the technician never disassembled the computer, then yeah, they shouldn't charge you, but if the technician spent time to disassemble the computer then someone needs to compensate them for that time, if it isn't Apple, then it's you. I can't tell you how many times people complain that we charge a fee to remove those credit card sized CD disks from their slot load drives. Well let's see... We have to disassemble the computer, disassemble the CD drive, remove the disc, the reassemble everything, test the computer to make sure it works... well who's going to pay for your inserting that disc? Not Apple, it's not their fault, it's not our fault, it was your stupidity that did it, it's your responsibility to pay the bill.
I own an Apple Authorized Service Center and these procedures were put into place because of a few bad apples (no pun intended) service providers out there taking advantage of the system. Just like the new procedures Apple has put into place for consumers because of all the fraud consumers try to pull over on Apple.
The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.
We had a person bring in a MacBook because it would not power up. On disassembly we found traces of a dried liquid pool under the optical drive. We called the owner and and asked if there might had been an accidental spill they fanatically responded "absolutely not!". Upon further disassembly we noticed clumps of something under the logic board. Once again we called the owner and this time one of the kids answered the phone and admitted they had vomited on the MacBook and the dad had poured several bottles of rubbing alcohol through the computer to try to clean it out. And when that didn't work he bought it to us to repair. When the father found out the kid had ratted him out, the father went on a rant on how "if Apple's engineers were so smart that they would build their laptops where they could resist any liquid spill". That doesn't excuse you from the fact that you lied about your computer repair.
I can't tell you how many times we have had people bring in laptops with broken screens and say "I left it on my desk when I finished last night and when I woke up this morning the screen was broken!". Let's see... what's this dent on the corner of your laptop?
As far as charging you to reassemble your laptop, I don't blame them for doing that. Someone has to pay for the technicians time. Apple was not going to cover your repair, there was indication of abuse (which is typically customer's fault), it only points to you to cover the labor to diagnose your computer. Now if the technician never disassembled the computer, then yeah, they shouldn't charge you, but if the technician spent time to disassemble the computer then someone needs to compensate them for that time, if it isn't Apple, then it's you. I can't tell you how many times people complain that we charge a fee to remove those credit card sized CD disks from their slot load drives. Well let's see... We have to disassemble the computer, disassemble the CD drive, remove the disc, the reassemble everything, test the computer to make sure it works... well who's going to pay for your inserting that disc? Not Apple, it's not their fault, it's not our fault, it was your stupidity that did it, it's your responsibility to pay the bill.
The fact a consumer has to have near perfect (and unlikely) information to come out a head is an issue.
The fact a service dealer is so constrained they hare hard pressed to make 15% profit is an issue.
While it is long known history Apple is adverse to their own dealers because they wanted to have their own dealers some day, they needed the indys to get where they are now, and thus make it possible for APPLE stores to be here.
I think it is reasonable to say Apple has no loyalty or sense of responsibility to dealers whatsoever despite them sowing the ground for Apple.
Free advise to Apple. Pay them $ to quit, because we all know they sowed the ground, and you will never suffer the existence of a competitor, even a sympathetic and loyal one.
Rocketman
BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO HAVE THEIR OWN SOME DAY, THEY NEEDED THE INDYS TO GET TO WHERE THEY ARE NOW.
my favorite is still the guy who brings in his laptop cause there's an odd smell coming out of it when it gets hot. and he's all "I think the battery is getting too hot. It's probably going to explode."
uh, no. that smell is from your dumb cat who peed on and into the machine.
seriously, the guy was at a Genius Bar right next to me. And no the Geniuses wouldn't touch the machine. They were very nice and explained that it was considered accidental damage and not covered by the warranty or Apple Care. When he said he'd pay for the cleanup, they politely told him that they aren't trained for such things and he should take it to someone that is. He was pretty cool as he walked out. Didn't notice the Geniuses wiping out the cleaner and the Purell before calling up the next person
I want to see a copy of the agreement that these resellers and technicians sign when they want to be 'authorized'. Cause I'm betting they know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up. So if they sign, that's on them. It doesn't excuse defrauding Apple or the customers.
The customers, the AASPs, but perhaps the biggest source of fraudulent costs to Apple is the Genius Bar employee.
These folks can issue a CS code for any part for any reason. Including replacing an entire unit. My understanding is that they have the power to replace a machine even if there is obvious liquid or impact damage and there is little to no oversight of the CS codes issued.
THIS. THIS. THIS. Ugh. I've seen plenty of Macbooks with obvious spills. Of course the customer doesn't tell you about them, then doesn't act surprised when you tell them. If they hadn't know, they'd be livid. We had one lady bring in a Macbook Pro that was beat to hell. The back of the screen was dented pretty bad (and a large pink bar in the display as a result), the thing was dented, banged up, and scratched to hell, and the keyboard reeked of coffee. Amazingly, it still worked...mostly. Booted and ran, at least, but needed an external keyboard and mouse. And she was miffed when we wouldn't fix it under warranty. Yeah, treat your computer like crap and expect someone else to pick up the tab.
Another guy brought in a Macbook that was literally busted in half. Screen broken off completely. Left it in the back of his truck. He was surprised when he learned that Applecare wouldn't cover it.
We've had a few jerks swear up and down that Apple said they'd cover it, and then we find out that Apple has zero record of it. Sorry, but software work is not covered by default under warranty. Get used to it and read the agreement next time.
A guy brought in a Macbook with a cracked screen. Said his daughter claimed that it just happened, and there were even people on the forums with the same problem! No, it doesn't just happen. You're daughter's a liar, pal. You should have beaten her more when she was younger.
Another guy had an obvious coffee spill into his Macbook that wrecked the optical drive. He kept asking if there was any way we could clean it up with alcohol and send it back to get it covered. I wanted to reach through the phone and cut his tongue out, then cram it up his rear end.
Yeah, I'm sure I could come up with more, but I'm getting too depressed just thinking about it. This job would be much better if it weren't for the customers.
And yes, diagnostic charges are perfectly okay if the computer is not covered. Sorry, but we had to do work on it to find out that we can't get it covered and Apple won't pay us. That means that you pay us. End of story. Diagnostic charges for 100% covered warranty repairs are what piss me off.
Grrrr...we have to wrestle with Apple (or tell the customer to do so) to get CS codes in most cases. If it's a cracked Macbook top case that's a month outside the REP, then they usually just go ahead. Anything else and it's like pulling teeth. Also, possessed Macs that just refused to work no matter what take forever to just get replaced. I had a Macbook that made a high-pitched buzzing noise all the time. Wasn't the inverter. It was coming from around the CPU/GPU. I replaced EVERYTHING in the bare config and it still kept doing it. I still don't know what it was, but it took four f**king logic boards, numerous other parts, and constantly consulting TSPS and waiting days for a response (and a mail in, where the idiots replaced the fan, something I'd already marked as eliminated and it didn't fix the problem. The mail in depots really suck) before Apple finally just replaced the darn thing. Meanwhile, our Service Excellence rating tanked. Thanks.
On another note, I can understand the diagnostic codes for the battery, but the diagnostic codes for power adapters are the STUPIDEST F*CKING IDEA EVER. Batteries get used up and depleted. Power adapters don't. Sure, let the diagnostic test them, but don't force us to get a code or punch in some placeholder when the power supply simply stops working, because that's how the usually go. Either they work or they don't with very little middle ground.