Apple Researching Methods to Detect 'Consumer Abuse' in Portable Devices

[ViViDboarder]

Then a sensor would help prove your point.

Right now I can take my phone in and they say "did you get it wet?" and I say "Check the sensor!" and they know I'm telling the truth.

Wouldn't you like to have been able to answer the "did you crack it by dropping it?" question in the same way?

I sure would.

Same thing I was thinking.

Ok. Maybe I can make this clearer:

If it's software on the phone it's a little more robust than a piece of tape that changes color. I'm sure it'll probably even track times. They could use this information to, not only deem whether or not you dropped your phone, but whether or not you dropping your phone was related to the damage.

 

[AmazingRobie]

Here's a pleasant scenario for you. Something relatively minor happens to your device and you take it in for repair. The tech is careless and spills something on it or does something else that causes it not to be covered by the "consumer abuse" warranty as it exists once they instate this and decides to cover it up by not mentioning it to anyone because he would be responsible for it and it might jeopardize his job because it's happened to him before so he fixes whatever problem you had originally brought it in for only two months later something else goes wrong and you take it in for repair once again, only this time, they notice the prior damage that was caused by the Apple tech, not you. Only you get blamed for it. You're now screwed. Nice going Apple.

Last time I took my MBP in for a graphics chip malfunction, when I got it back there was what looked like black grease smudges all over the case and keys. When I took it in it was only a couple of months old and still brand new. Now I have no idea what they did to it once I dropped it off until they brought it back to me from the back of the store, but now I'm suspicious and concerned.

All of these so-called "good ideas" to protect the consumers/companies, are ultimately to cause a loophole for the corporation to protect themselves from any liability. Screw this.

 

[*LTD*]

Finally!

It's about time, too. Should put an end to all these "exploding iPod" BS claims.

 

[Durendal]

As an Apple tech, I can tell you exactly why they're doing this: To cover less repairs, plain and simple. I can see so, SO much room for abuse of this kind of system allowing Apple to screw over customers. They've been bigger and bigger dicks lately and it's really unsettling. Makes me glad I built a Hackintosh. I'm pretty well done with Apple hardware outside of my HTPC Mac Mini.

 

[Globe199]

I'm sure that the reduction in fraudulent warranty claims will result in lower prices to consumers...right?

 

[Eidorian]

Same thing I was thinking.

Ok. Maybe I can make this clearer:

If it's software on the phone it's a little more robust than a piece of tape that changes color. I'm sure it'll probably even track times. They could use this information to, not only deem whether or not you dropped your phone, but whether or not you dropping your phone was related to the damage.

This is my concern as well. Just turning the water sensor pink from ambient humidity is enough to trip you down to no warranty.

I sometimes wonder if my SMS logs get read if I take my MacBook in.

Finally!

It's about time, too. Should put an end to all these "exploding iPod" BS claims.

[sarcasm]I wouldn't want to be the tech trying to recover the data from a molten iPod.[/sarcasm]

 

[ViViDboarder]

Here's a pleasant scenario for you. Something relatively minor happens to your device and you take it in for repair. The tech is careless and spills something on it or does something else that causes it not to be covered by the "consumer abuse" warranty as it exists once they instate this and decides to cover it up by not mentioning it to anyone because he would be responsible for it and it might jeopardize his job because it's happened to him before so he fixes whatever problem you had originally brought it in for only two months later something else goes wrong and you take it in for repair once again, only this time, they notice the prior damage that was caused by the Apple tech, not you. Only you get blamed for it. You're now screwed. Nice going Apple.

They should have timestamps. Then you'll be able to see WHEN the damage happened. It'd be really useful for diagnostics.

Last time I took my MBP in for a graphics chip malfunction, when I got it back there was what looked like black grease smudges all over the case and keys. When I took it in it was only a couple of months old and still brand new. Now I have no idea what they did to it once I dropped it off until they brought it back to me from the back of the store, but now I'm suspicious and concerned.

That sucks. I wonder if consumers will be able to view the history of damage done to their device. Then you'd have something to go back and get Apple to punish that employee for.

All of these so-called "good ideas" to protect the consumers/companies, are ultimately to cause a loophole for the corporation to protect themselves from any liability. Screw this.

Yes. And shouldn't they? Companies survive by protecting themselves from liability, not by giving away free products to people.

 

[RazHyena]

Seems like Apple is losing too much revenue from their generous warranty program and needs to cut back.

Customer: "My iPod spontaneously caught fire and burnt a hole in my leg!"
Apple: "No, the sensors indicate you dropped it in water."
Customer: "That's not what happened!!"
Apple: "Sorry, no replacement."

 

[Digital Skunk]

SO, Apple is just making it easier for their Genius Bar employees to tell you that the spontaneous combustion of their company's products is our own fault.

They could just save the money and just keep denying us service for minute and major technical flaws.

Seems like Apple is losing too much revenue from their generous warranty program and needs to cut back.

Customer: "My iPod spontaneously caught fire and burnt a hole in my leg!"
Apple: "No, the sensors indicate you dropped it in water."
Customer: "That's AFTER it caught fire!!"
Apple: "Sorry, no replacement."

Fixed that for you my friend!

 

[AmazingRobie]

They should have timestamps. Then you'll be able to see WHEN the damage happened. It'd be really useful for diagnostics.



That sucks. I wonder if consumers will be able to view the history of damage done to their device. Then you'd have something to go back and get Apple to punish that employee for.




Yes. And shouldn't they? Companies survive by protecting themselves from liability, not by giving away free products to people.

Forgive me, but how is something "free" if you had to pay for it once, then buy the expensive "AppleCare" protection plan to cover something from happening, only now it won't be covered because of the new warranty stipulations? I don't see how that's helpful.

Also, "timestamps", please, I'm sure that someone with enough programming experience will be able to go in and change anything a timestamp would provide.

When I first got my MBP and the graphics card started acting up, it was doing some crazy stuff to my desktop, like overheating and turning all of the icons in the dock into question marks. The first time I took it in, they checked the computer history and didn't see any event like I described, so I had to deal with a faulty graphics card for another couple of months until I could accumulate enough camera photos to prove what I was saying was actually happening. Otherwise, they would have never done anything to replace it execept waste my time.

So, no sir, you and your "timestamp" theory don't hold water.

 

[mac-imperator]

This is my concern as well. Just turning the water sensor pink from ambient humidity is enough to trip you down to no warranty.

I sometimes wonder if my SMS logs get read if I take my MacBook in.

[sarcasm]I wouldn't want to be the tech trying to recover the data from a molten iPod.[/sarcasm]

Please allow me to debunk this LSI and humidity urban legend...It's false. There is only one way that the LSI would trigger in a humid scenario and that is if the component is exposed to humidity for a prolonged period of time actually allowing condensation to build therefore triggering the LSI to trigger. My question to you is, is this a manufacturing defect of gross negligence on the end user?

 

[AmazingRobie]

Please allow me to debunk this LSI and humidity urban legend...It's false. There is only one way that the LSI would trigger in a humid scenario and that is if the component is exposed to humidity for a prolonged period of time actually allowing condensation to build therefore triggering the LSI to trigger. My question to you is, is this a manufacturing defect of gross negligence on the end user?

Now this I can see. Almost everyday, I see idiots in the gym sauna with their ipod touch's and iphones, then it probably goes bad and they wonder why. Everyone needs to stop taking electronics into the steam room. It says right there on the box what temperatures to avoid.

 

[reckless2k2]

I know it's been said but it would seem reasonable that Apple wouldn't want or should have to replace a device if there's been any type of accidental or intentional damage. There warranty service does not cover this. if you dropped it and got lucky with no major visible physical damage but there are internal software glitches as a result, they shouldn't have to replace that. I don't think there's anything "EVIL" about that. And such, if you jailbreak it and put on an app that creates an issue only to clean restore before returning to Apple for warranty replacement, they should be able to track that as well.

It's like the thieves are getting mad that the cops are getting better at tracking them. Give me a break. You want accidental damage protection, get a SquareTrade warranty. You want to jailbreak, it says use at your own risk and it voids manufacturer warranty. Geez clowns.

 

[ViViDboarder]

Forgive me, but how is something "free" if you had to pay for it once, then buy the expensive "AppleCare" protection plan to cover something from happening, only now it won't be covered because of the new warranty stipulations? I don't see how that's helpful.

That's silly to think. Why would anyone get the AppleCare if nothing would ever be covered. They wouldn't and Apple would lose out on money from that. Things that are listed as covered by the warranty before you buy it would still be covered. Nobody is being fooled.

Also, "timestamps", please, I'm sure that someone with enough programming experience will be able to go in and change anything a timestamp would provide.

Sure, I'm sure someone would be able to find out a way to alter it. So you think that the techs that work on your laptop are going to change these to make it seem like it's not warranted? What do they care? They'd risk their jobs for that? Also, if you're talking about users changing their timestamps, how about users just removing the incident all together? Apple has nothing to lose by adding timestamps, it only makes the system more useful. Your "argument" does not negate the usefulness of the system.

When I first got my MBP and the graphics card started acting up, it was doing some crazy stuff to my desktop, like overheating and turning all of the icons in the dock into question marks. The first time I took it in, they checked the computer history and didn't see any event like I described, so I had to deal with a faulty graphics card for another couple of months until I could accumulate enough camera photos to prove what I was saying was actually happening. Otherwise, they would have never done anything to replace it execept waste my time.

That sucks, but I'm sure you must see how someone could just be saying that their system was "acting up" and if they can't find anything wrong, what are they going to fix? In your case it was an actual problem, but from a repair standpoint it's a hard thing to decipher. A log would make it easier.

So, no sir, you and your "timestamp" theory don't hold water.

Yes we do.

 

[againstthegrain]

I think a lot of you are too paranoid about this.

I've worked on and off at Authorized Apple Service Centers for the past 10 years, and you'd be amazed how many abused computers I've seen. And, the overwhelming majority of the time, the customer refuses to acknowledge the obvious.

I've taken apart dozens of machines to find CLEAR liquid damage including obvious corrosion on circuit boards only to have the customer outright refuse any possibility that they could have been responsible. I mean, come on. People lie and deceive all the time to try to get things for free.

A lot of times people will drop (or carelessly toss around) their laptops while they are in their protective bags. No exterior physical damage will be seen because of the bag's padding, but then they'll come in complaining their hard drive or optical drive don't work (two parts with sensitive mechanical parts). While Apple (and third party service centers) will almost always cover these repairs under warranty, they really shouldn't. I think this will give Apple some protection when a customer comes in with a bad hard drive or optical drive after they've had two or three replaced already.

Someone also mentioned voiding warranty by modifying/upgrading hardware. There are very few Apple products that can be voided without physical modification to individual components. If you install a third party battery, RAM, hard drive, etc... obviously the part you installed isn't going to be covered by Apple. But that won't impact the coverage of, say, the logic board on that unit.

Apple has very, very lenient and accommodating warranty policies. I've seen all kinds of abuse covered by Apple. I've even seen them replace 4-5 year old machines with brand new units. I've seen them cover repairs 1-2 years out of warranty just to please customers. I think it is only fair Apple has the ability to protect themselves from customers that damage their hardware. There are a LOT of them.

I have a lot of complaints about how Apple does business, especially their anti-competitive practices, restrictions on using their software on third-party hardware, and closed and highly controlled software (i.e. App Store/iPhone OS)... but I can't see how this is bad. As laptops become less and less expensive and ever more common, so do incidents of customer abuse. Apple can't be expected to cover repairs of every careless consumer who spills coffee on their laptop or has it flying around on the backseat of their car everyday.

 

[Mattnh]

... those who obviously damage their product, try to get a free ride, and argues when they can't get a free ride.

Warranty only covers manufacturer defects not user damage.
Apple does this to prevent the low IQ butter finger crowd from wasting people's time.

Could have been my words.

 

[the vj]

you are forging documents to defraud a company, and you are making excuses for it. Things break down occasionally. Tha fact does not give you an excuse to commit fraud.



and you think that it was Apple who purposefully fried your computer and you are just "stickin it to the man"? Oh give me a break! You are lying to them and committing a fraud!



so you believe that that gives you the right to commit fraud?



and in this case "I do what I can" means lying and defrauding.

Yes, I am defrauding Apple and I am very happy about it and I will do it every time I need to as long they have their 1 year warranty and their poor quality apliances.

I am not going to spend $1000 to $3000 for their defective equipment.

If they are going to apply their consumer abuse system that is fine with me as long the extend the regular warranty to 3 years without paying extra for apple care. That would be a fair deal...

 

[ssteve]

I think people are rejecting this idea because they're wary of how well it'd actually work and it also means they can't do whatever they want and get away with it.

On the other hand, it does show the more ruthless and less friendly side of Apple

I agree with you on your first statement. On your second statement, I am not sure.

I would like to know for example...Of all the iPhones sold, what is the percentage of them being replaced? AND what is the percentage of them being repaired? I would like two separate numbers for this. In either case, I would also want to know what are the reasons these are being replaced/repaired. There is a cost associated with either a replacement or a repair and that goes directly to the bottom line.

If we had this information, we might be able to understand why Apple would be working on this.. Maybe there is way too much fraud.

We just don't know because we DO NOT have enough information to make any intelligent conclusions.

Is Apple showing it's evil side? I don't know because I don't have enough information and I choose not to decide on emotion.

We need facts and the more the better, otherwise we could all be making statements like some people in this thread.......

 

[whooleytoo]

I have a lot of complaints about how Apple does business, especially their anti-competitive practices, restrictions on using their software on third-party hardware, and closed and highly controlled software (i.e. App Store/iPhone OS)... but I can't see how this is bad. As laptops become less and less expensive and ever more common, so do incidents of customer abuse. Apple can't be expected to cover repairs of every careless consumer who spills coffee on their laptop or has it flying around on the backseat of their car everyday.

If this sensor works perfectly with 100% accuracy, few would have a problem with it. It won't, so we do!

If implemented, it'll mean some buyers will take their pristine device back to a store, and be wrongly told (thanks to these sensors, very firmly told) their warranty is invalid.

I'm sure it would also invalidate a lot of silly/fraudulent claims too, but not being a scammer they're not the cases I'm worried about.

Personally, I'd prefer Apple focused on making their devices more durable, rather than trying to welch on customers' warranties.

 

[jettredmont]

On what? The Zune?

We're talking about hardware abuse. From these forums you have probably seen all the people that talk about Apple giving them a new phone for something that the user obviously did. Why should they be getting new phones or iPods or whatever? It's not included in the warranty.

The problem is symmetry of information.

IF (and I'm supposing this; if I'm wrong that changes things) these "abuse events" are available only to Apple technicians and not users, then this opens a large channel for corporate abuse and, just as importantly, allegations of corporate abuse which can not be disproved.

Example scenario: My iPod stops working. I take it in to the Apple Store and 30 minutes later the tech guy comes out and tells me it's broken because of abuse. He can even give me the exact date and time of abuse. That's great! But, can I account for my version of what happened on that day and time? Can I provide an argument that the "abuse" it supposedly withstood is really just normal wear and tear? No, of course not. Unless the "abuse" event immediately triggered a hardware failure, I'm not going to have any idea what precisely I was doing at 1:37PM on April 9th of this year. Was I on a roller coaster? Was the iPod in a cup holder of my car when I went over a bumpy road? Was that the time I flung it out the window to see how high it would bounce?

IF Apple were to expose these "abuse events" visibly on the device itself, immediately after they occurred, then I can see this being a good measure to protect Apple from fraud. I can also see a LOT of churn in the first couple of iterations as people do something just ordinary and get the "STOP ABUSING ME!!!" frowny face with a black eye on their iPod, or conversely as people do something they say really should have triggered the abuse flag and don't see any indication of it. After those first iterations, though, Apple would have a powerful and demonstrably fair tool to prevent fraud.

 

[Evangelion]

I am not going to spend $1000 to $3000 for their defective equipment.

then don't! Stop buying their stuff! That is the correct solution, NOT illegal actions!

You are a liar and a fraud

 

[AmazingRobie]

That's silly to think. Why would anyone get the AppleCare if nothing would ever be covered. They wouldn't and Apple would lose out on money from that. Things that are listed as covered by the warranty before you buy it would still be covered. Nobody is being fooled.

You seem to be missing the thread of what I was saying. I don't trust all Apple techs to be 100% honest when it comes to admitting to their mistakes when it will affect their jobs, or anyone else for that matter. If a tech has had to report that he has dropped 'x' number of phones/computers by accident, spilled something on it, or accidently done something else more than once, that person will suddenly become paranoid that they keep making mistakes which make them look bad, so they start to cover them up, especially if it's costing Apple money to replace these items and they feel they might get fired.

Sure, I'm sure someone would be able to find out a way to alter it. So you think that the techs that work on your laptop are going to change these to make it seem like it's not warranted? What do they care? They'd risk their jobs for that? Also, if you're talking about users changing their timestamps, how about users just removing the incident all together? Apple has nothing to lose by adding timestamps, it only makes the system more useful. Your "argument" does not negate the usefulness of the system.

Yes. I do think that if they drop something when working on it and they already had to report that they've done something similar before like accidentally spilling their Mountain Dew on another device maybe a month prior and they've been warned that they're on thin ice because they keep messing up. I most certainly do think that they'll manipulate a record to hide that fact.

That sucks, but I'm sure you must see how someone could just be saying that their system was "acting up" and if they can't find anything wrong, what are they going to fix? In your case it was an actual problem, but from a repair standpoint it's a hard thing to decipher. A log would make it easier.

Yes we do.

Apple takes forever to admit there's a problem in any of the Nvidia chips even though tens of thousands of people are complaining about it and you expect me to trust that they'll do the right thing in every situation. You must be joking.

...and No it doesn't.

 

[jettredmont]

Now this I can see. Almost everyday, I see idiots in the gym sauna with their ipod touch's and iphones, then it probably goes bad and they wonder why. Everyone needs to stop taking electronics into the steam room. It says right there on the box what temperatures to avoid.

My dad's stereo from 1972 had a "Humidity Sensor" which would turn off everything and light a little red "humidity" light on the front panel. For that matter so did every single VCR I even owned (and I can verify they worked, although some were touchier than others in Boston summer humidity).

I think Apple has the technology to not only tell these people they are doing something stupid after their iPod fails, but the moment they take it into the sauna. That would be something to cheer over. Keeping that information hidden and immune from questioning until the failure happens and the guy's out $800 is not something to cheer.

 

[rerelease]

I'm actually glad with this. I know several people who try and get a free ride anywhere possible. My friend has gone through three free iPhones, all due to damages he himself was responsible for. He also plants hairs in his burgers after eating most of it and claims it's the chef's fault. Just to get another free Big Mac.

I do not have an iPhone myself. And I've never had any problems with my iPods that need Apple maintenance either. I've thrown them, dropped them, operated them anywhere between -13 to 86 °F (-25 to 30 in °C). I've had direct sunlight shine on them for days in the summer and so far no problems. So I don't really care if an overseas corporation has a black box in my portable if it keeps on working the way it should.

But if this prevents another stingy bastard from screwing over a company I'm all for it.

 

[ViViDboarder]

Apple takes forever to admit there's a problem in any of the Nvidia chips even though tens of thousands of people are complaining about it and you expect me to trust that they'll do the right thing in every situation. You must be joking.

...and No it doesn't.

I we failed to understand each other. You're absolutely right that there would be some people on both ends that lie, there always will.

Apple is indeed very slow to admit, but there would only be more pressure on them if it was known that there was no user damage but the video cards kept failing. There would be actual data.

I said Yes it does because you never refuted timestamps from having a bennefit. Of course they can be abused, but less than if they didn't have anything.

See where I'm going? There is no perfect world with people who don't want to rip people off (see photoshop guy above). All anyone can do is protect themselves as much as possible.